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based on what you said in the OP I would say the hydras and the Manticore

Terminus wrote:Lascannon HWSs are way too expensive, and fail their orders half the time. For 10 more points you can get a Vendetta.

True but I play large games so I find it worth while taking creed and kell. Kell lets me use Creeds leadership for orders.

How large a game are we talking about? Even at 2500 points Kell and lascannon HWSs are too much of an investment for me.

In my 2000 pt list I've got Creed with a regimental standard and a Lord Commissar supporting 2x LC HWS, a ML HWS and an AC HWS. It's a quarter of my points, but with 4 orders taken on LD 10, vehicles go down fairly reliably. With cover and rerolling morale on ld10, they pretty much aren't going anywhere and can be fairly stubborn to silence (especially with gtg) since you pretty much have to destroy each gun in the battery. Still leaves me plenty of room for 2x fully armed 30 man platoons and 7 vehicles.

Of which I take 3 from heavy support (to bring this back on topic). With the infantry able to specialize to handle any target type, I prefer to use my heavy support to get some pie. I usually have a bassy, a LRBT and a LRD at 2000 pts. I like the kill-everything nature of the Battle, Earthshaker, and Demolisher Cannons.

Your list makes me cry. 25% of a guard list wasted on chaff is 100% a bad guard list.

Way off topic: If you are going to bring a Lord Commissar, you might as well bring Kell for, really, the same points if you are buying the standard and can use the second HQ slot for plasma/melta ccs....

anyways

Really need to reconsider your 2 punishers dying quite handily to a 155pt meltavet squad... omg, they just made how many times their points back in one volley because I sent the CCS with them? Yeah, really need to reconsider the amount of:
- points put into punishers
- amount of AV12 that you can. not. hurt. at. all.
- and easy popping of these things, making the investment relatively foolish if not accompanies by some serious protection for a sub par weapon.

Manticore & Hydra accompanied by your choice of another AV12 HS slot. Mass that AV12 and make it your opponents' only threat and you will cause too much redundancy in your defense, really straining your opponents' offensive capabilities. Giving that one squad of AV14/13 is too much of a bullseye for your opponents' meltas.

Terminus wrote:Your list makes me cry. 25% of a guard list wasted on chaff is 100% a bad guard list.

Sorry, Big T, I forgot you are prone to crying whenever someone mentions a unit or playstyle you don't like. No offence, but don't worry, one day you'll grow up, and crying when someone mentions a unit you have decided is chaff, or playstyle you have decided is bad will hopefully be less frequent. Some of us play with different units than others, and we get to talk about them too!

Nenya, the reason I bring the lord commissar is for that ld10 on morale - can't have those 3-T3-model ld7 units running at the first sign of trouble. The orders on ld10 are just a bonus.

The point of it is, I want my Heavy Support to Bring the Pie, so the infantry have to handle alot of niche roles. Melta can handle vehicles, but so can heavy weapons, and we can debate about the pros and cons of each method in some other thread. I ended up with alot of heavy weapons, and not much melta, in my collection, and I'm not about to run out and buy or make 15 meltaguns just so Dakka approves of my list, or because it's somehow the 'only' way to kill tanks.

Just for you Terminus, I'll post my list and how I use it in Tactics. You can rip it to pieces, or cry me a river, or ignore it, however you choose! Enough derailing of this thread...

How large a game are we talking about? Even at 2500 points Kell and lascannon HWSs are too much of an investment for me.

Something like 5k upwards lol If we don't have time for an all out slaughter i'd usually take creed and kell at 1500. The CCS to me is my safety net. It sits back and centred on a 4x6 board so Creed can issue orders to falling back units without having to move. Along with Kell it increase the ammount of units I can force back into the fight. Also the extra orders mean I can fire plenty of TL shots from my heavy weapons on tanks and MC's. The fact you get Creed's 'for the honor of cadia' rule is the icing on the cake. I can use it to perform powerful counter charges with my blobbed squads should anything danagerous get too close to my gunline. The CCS doesnt really need much upgrading except perhaps an autocannon so they can shoot and do a little bit themselves.

I guess I warrent taking them at lowish points costs because my combat methods make the most of their abilities and they'll save or help the HWS take down more than their points worth through out the game.

alarmingrick wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Hydras and Manticore get my votes considering you've preselected one

Ditto this ^^^^^^^^^^

what is the 1 choice you are taking?

+1

murdog wrote:Nenya, the reason I bring the lord commissar is for that ld10 on morale - can't have those 3-T3-model ld7 units running at the first sign of trouble. The orders on ld10 are just a bonus.

Good point. I just see the Lord Commissar as kind of a slot filler and not really filling any big roll besides increasing Ld and idk... I'm just not sold on relying on the Lord Commissar for the Ld bonus because that makes you have to really bunch up your HWS, losing the utility of some of the guns, makes them vulnerable to any kind of blast (because you have little horde left after a few HWS, Lord, and Creed). It just does not seem to jive well all together. I guess I'd just have to try it out and see how it plays out. Just seems like an IG deathstar of mediocracy.

It is true that you have to bunch up a bit, but putting the Lord and/or CCS in a chimera helps with that by measuring from the hull, and I just pick one or two HWS to boost with LD10 (the most important, read: lascannons), and spread the rest out. Many games, the enemy has no blast, and/or there is a fairly good spot to put my men, like area terrain. I'm not sure what you mean about having 'little horde left after that'; I've got 70 men after those 30, along with 7 vehicles.

I just posted my list and tactics in the Tactics forum, lets move discussion about my use of HWS over there.

murdog wrote:Nenya, the reason I bring the lord commissar is for that ld10 on morale - can't have those 3-T3-model ld7 units running at the first sign of trouble. The orders on ld10 are just a bonus.

A battle standard would be a lot cheaper and has 2x the radius.

Nice bonus, hurray for paying 135 points just to give a 120-point re-roll on their orders!

A standard also only allows you to reroll at your current leadership, while a Lord Commissar boosts you leadership to 10. More importantly, a standard doesn't allow rerolls for failed orders, while the Lord Commissar allows those same orders to be rolled on Ld10.

The 2 things are not congrous in any sense at all, the standard is a cheap way to keep some units in the fight a little longer, while the Lord Commissar is more expensive, but also makes for a practically fearless firebase, that'll take orders like there's no tomorrow.

Yes, I realize that the standard is only for leadership and morale, but it has double the range and the horrid list in question already has Creed and Kell so they are testing orders on Ld10 anyway.

Regardless, the point is that HWSs are already expensive enough without compounding that problem by investing 80+ points (more if you add a chimera) just to make sure they pass their orders. A 75% success rate from a standard is adequate for HWSs considering they tend to die rapidly when targeted anyway.

Huh, true enough. I personally find the Lord Commissar useful since he cna lead my blobs without risking my source of orders being held up, or incapacitated.

Terminus wrote:Yes, I realize that the standard is only for leadership and morale, but it has double the range and the horrid list in question already has Creed and Kell so they are testing orders on Ld10 anyway.

Regardless, the point is that HWSs are already expensive enough without compounding that problem by investing 80+ points (more if you add a chimera) just to make sure they pass their orders. A 75% success rate from a standard is adequate for HWSs considering they tend to die rapidly when targeted anyway.

Naah, my horrid list doesn't have Kell and a Lord, just the Lord. Like I've been saying, I don't take the Lord for orders, but for morale. As ChrisWWII said, the standard and the lord are not really congruous. Orders on ld10 are a nice bonus, but it's really about the morale: rerolling morale on 10 is better than rerolling morale on 7, making for what Chris calls 'a practically fearless firebase, that'll take orders like there's no tomorrow.' I'm not sure what you meant about "Nice bonus, hurray for paying 135 points just to give a 120 point reroll on their orders!" What!?!? What's 135 points, and what's 120 points?

Points permitting my heavy support for guard was 2 Manticores and 2 Hydras in a squadron.

Manticores are the best heavy support for guard being good versus hordes and vehicles.

Hydras are great against Razorback spam and for killing skimmers and bikes that turbo boost.

Punishers are terrible. Useless against most vehicles. No AP and short range and you really don't kill that much after all the die rolling is done since you are bs3 and they get their armor saves.

Vanquishers are also terrible Just not very reliable ranged anti tank for their high cost. Manticores do better for less points.

murdog wrote: I'm not sure what you meant about "Nice bonus, hurray for paying 135 points just to give a 120 point reroll on their orders!" What!?!? What's 135 points, and what's 120 points?

A commissar lord is 70 points + 10/15 for a power weapon/fist. You then stick him in a chimera for protection. So 130-135 points. All for making a couple of 120-point units (overpriced lascannon HWSs) re-roll their orders.

Two units is not much of a "firebase". Who cares if they are fearless when a round of shooting from pretty much anything leaves nothing of the squad? Maybe I just face too many min-maxed lists with Longfang spam or Razorback/AC fleets, etc.

....Why does he need a Chimera? He doesn't need a Chimera! Just stick him behind something, and buy carapace armor. And if he's just going to be doing bonus Ld, he doesn't need a power weapon. Seriously, that 135 point figure is a complete exageration of the actual cost of the Lord COmmissar in this situation. Not to mention, Lascannon HWS are 105 pts. Not 120 pts, where in Terra's holy name did you get that figure from?

So, in short it's not a 135 pt unit to keep a 120 pt unit around for a couple turns. More likely, it's a 70, maybe 80 pt model that will keep a pair of 105 pts units around long enough to get a few extra shots out.

Leaving a character like that in the open gives your opponent an easy killpoint. Carapace armor? You must be joking. If anything, buy him a camo cloak (can Lord Commissars even buy a camo cloak), and go to ground for a 2+ invulnerable.

I don't know how I got 120, I think I was thinking of armored fist squads. Sorry about that, but in any case 105 points is still too much for three squishy bases that will die very quickly in my local cutthroat meta.

I got the chimera from this:

murdog wrote:It is true that you have to bunch up a bit, but putting the Lord and/or CCS in a chimera helps with that by measuring from the hull, and I just pick one or two HWS to boost with LD10 (the most important, read: lascannons), and spread the rest out.

Even taking everything at its bare minimum and ignoring the cost of whatever it is you're using to protect the LC, you're paying 70 points for two 105 point. That means each of those lascannons is costing you 46.7 points.

Ahhh, I see where you got the Chimera at least. Fair enough.

I do believe he can buy a camo cloak, and I suppose that would do better than the carapace armor in this situation. Apologies, I'm still thinking in terms of the Lord Commissar leading power blobs.

I'd argue that it's not TOO expensive, especially if you put the HWS in cover, and use orders. With the right orders, it's not impossible to have a lascannon squad take out a couple transports, or dreads.

Of course, this is all just opinion, and the way my list is built, I tend to rely on my lascannons much more, and they've proven themselves true to me time and time again.

How good are punishers?
I'm debating whether to arm my next tank as an Eradicator or a punisher.
Please advise.

Welcome to dakka mr. solon. But in all honesty, Punishers suck. They may seem to be awesome, but once you factor in BS3, and no AP whatsoever, you realize they just aren't that good. In my opinion, at least, the Punisher should have something close to a Heavy 8 assault cannon.

I'd personally say build neither. Neither the Eradicator or the Punisher is a particularlly viable option, and unless you've got a major Kroot problem in your local metagame, I'd say a standard Leman Russ, or maybe even an exterminator would serve you better.

Chris we should have a game some time - see if you think punishers suck at the end of it

Given that I run horde Guard, I'd have a feeling I'd suffer. But I have my doubts if I bring a meched out list.

EmilCrane wrote:You can't look at it as "will it make its points back"? You have to look more at "what can it remove to make victory easier?"

This is the best piece of advice anyone can make in 40k list building.

Take the Punishers - you want them
Take the Hydras - you want them
Take the Manticore for versatility

Punishers do alright, but are not worth the 30 point premium over a battle cannon, especially if your meta is typical in being heavily weighed towards MEQ.

Terminus wrote: Even taking everything at its bare minimum and ignoring the cost of whatever it is you're using to protect the LC, you're paying 70 points for two 105 point. That means each of those lascannons is costing you 46.7 points.

Your missing something that makes saying 46.7 pts for a lascannon inaccurate. It's not just the lascannons that benefit from the lord, but any and all infantry in range. Just as any infantry can use his chimera. I've got 100 guys out there. Either one has many uses, depending on the tactical situation - they don't have to be together. Although sometimes I like a HWS in the boat with him...

We already covered that you can't get that much infantry in range without severely clumping out, leading by your own admission to limiting his aura just to a couple of HWSs.

Ya but he can move, or start near units that are more important for that battle. He can join a blob, or stand behind terrain, or go with the CCS. He can do more than one thing in a battle. I sometimes tend towards a star formation to get more units in range (only one model has to be in the bubble). In any case, severely clumping isn't that much of a problem if there is good area terrain, and with 100 men, is unavoidable to a certain extent. It's only if there's slim pickin's for cover that you have to start really prioritizing, and/or thinking about using the chimera.