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People have been advocating for and against the use of PFs and Pws on the sarge of TAC squads, however, they've been doing it on threads completely unrelated to the subject so I figured I'd just create a new thread where we can bash at eachother in a more insulated environment.

I think that Power fists make TAC squads much more adept at holding objectives, but not necessarily 25 points worth. That said, on one or two squads, especially if they will be in CC, merit power weapons.

I believe that the assumption that good commanders will not allow their TAC squads to get into CC is ridiculous, there are times where you will be outflanked, outmaneuvered, infiltrated onto, etc. None of these things are the hallmarks of a good or bad commander, simply that it was a necessary thing to allow... perhaps.

so maybe we can discuss the use of bolters in the appropriate thread, and the use of special melee weapons here no?

Were I to play marines of either stripe, they would ALL get power fists. S8 ignores armor weapons are the difference between a squad that is good against light infantry, but seriously struggles against tough units like TEq, MCs, vehicles, and, worst of all, dreadnoughts, and a unit that has no real weakness.

Worth the cost? I honestly can't see why people don't always find the points for them. It seems to me to be one of those necessary upgrades like smoke launchers on a Hellhound, or demonic possession on anything chaos.

I would say power weapons are worth the 15 points but powerfists are over priced at 25 points. Power weapons allow you to ignore armor, and with 3 attacks on the charge for your sarge, thats not too bad. I'm just not a fan of initiative 1 for a powerfist.

Tactical squads should not be in close combat. They're a terrible close combat unit, unless you're fighting something where a powerfist is complete overkill like Imperial Guard or 10 Ork Boyz.

The reason that people who play Marines rarely take power fists (or power weapons) is because their tac squads are rarely *in* combat. If your melta/multimelta Marines have been peeled out of their rhino and engaged, then things have already gone terribly wrong. Even at this point, you can use Combat Tactics to escape CC for the fallback+shoot. A Power Fist is not a panacea; you killed 2 Meganobz thanks to instant death, your Tac squad is still dead.

The worst possible outcome for a Tac squad in combat with something like a Dreadnought is for the sergeant to get a glance or two, tie (or win) combat, and for a 215 pt squad to be stuck grinding away at a 105 pt walker that is now immune to shooting.

Combat Tactics and the loss of extra attack for 2 weapons in 5th ed makes Pfists obsolete. You are better off with another Land Speeder or 2 more Assault Terminators.

Now, you can ignore all of this for Chaos troops. CSM are viable assault units in their own right, but the real difference is the absence of CT. If CSM lose combat or fail the leadership test, there's a good chance that they're dead. Plague Marines in combat with a Dread are there until they die. The utter lack of options for Chaos shoehorns them into taking a Champ+Fist in many of their squads.

PraetorDave wrote: I'm just not a fan of initiative 1 for a powerfist.

They're hidden.

In any case, if your opponent wants your tac squads in close combat, they will get your tac squads in close combat. The real question is, do you want to do something about it, or just throw your hands in the air and give up whenever the emperor's finest wind up in assault.

Ailaros wrote:

In any case, if your opponent wants your tac squads in close combat, they will get your tac squads in close combat.

This... for the most part

I disagree to the implied argument that "throwing your hands up into the air" is a bad strategy. In many cases, the knowledge of when and where to cut your losses is a great thing to possess.

Also, my rear line TAC squads rarely see close combat. They are the way that I capture and hold objectives and I protect them accordingly. My front line TAC squads however are a completely different matter. I would say that in 5/8 games they get embroiled in CC. Usually, when they are not equipped with a PW, they die after a turn or two, and if they have a PW, they live long enough for me to support them.

Ailaros wrote:Were I to play marines of either stripe, they would ALL get power fists. S8 ignores armor weapons are the difference between a squad that is good against light infantry, but seriously struggles against tough units like TEq, MCs, vehicles, and, worst of all, dreadnoughts, and a unit that has no real weakness.

Worth the cost? I honestly can't see why people don't always find the points for them. It seems to me to be one of those necessary upgrades like smoke launchers on a Hellhound, or demonic possession on anything chaos.

Demonic possession? You are joking.

All you are doing is taking a bad CC unit and making it slightly less bad. If you really think that .83 wounds from a pf or .75 wounds from a pw is enough to tilt the scales vs 'light infantry' is worth it, then by all means waste your 15-25pts per tac squad.

imweasel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Were I to play marines of either stripe, they would ALL get power fists. S8 ignores armor weapons are the difference between a squad that is good against light infantry, but seriously struggles against tough units like TEq, MCs, vehicles, and, worst of all, dreadnoughts, and a unit that has no real weakness.

Worth the cost? I honestly can't see why people don't always find the points for them. It seems to me to be one of those necessary upgrades like smoke launchers on a Hellhound, or demonic possession on anything chaos.

Demonic possession? You are joking.

All you are doing is taking a bad CC unit and making it slightly less bad. If you really think that .83 wounds from a pf or .75 wounds from a pw is enough to tilt the scales vs 'light infantry' is worth it, then by all means waste your 15-25pts per tac squad.

Okay, so you say that it's a waste if you put it on every TAC squad, but what about putting it on the squads that are most likely to see combat?

There are a number of good reasons to add a powerfist to a TAC squad, along with a few caveats. At the end of the day, its a matter of personal preference, and I advise playtesting a few games with your friends to see what works best for you. I have outlined each below with a few words on each of them.

Take a few of the bastards with us
As was mentioned, your tactical squads are going to get into assault. When your opponent wants to assault them, he will find a way to make it happen. Often your tac squad will be assaulted by a death star, and when this occurs they will break. This is where your 25 point insurance policy can come into play. You can use your powerfist as a way to snipe an IC, or to go after just a few of the expensive units. Even if you can pluck one or two models off his death star, you have helped to weaken the death star's effect on other units. If you manage to squish an IC's head, then you saved much hassle otherwise delivered to your army and gained an VP. Either way, this allows for you to take some of the bastards with you!

Fear no Evil IC
I've seen many players keep an IC or MC seperate from the rest of their army, and use it to assault units with no protection. Ive seen a necron lord with a destroyer body turbo boost behind enemy lines to assault weak units. Ive seen a eldar IC on jetbike used for a similar purpose. Ive seen dreadnoughts drop-podded in my deployment zone. Ive seen lictors assault units I thought were safe. In all these cases, a PF stops those tactics dead in their tracks.

Knocking on Heaven's AV 10
If a tank comes close to your tac squad, you have the option of assaulting it and striking the rear armor with 3 STR 8 attacks. As most vehicles have AV 10 on the rear, that can destroy vehicles quite easily if they moved under 6". If they stood still, well, then its just not a good day for them. This gives your tac squads a 12" threat range to vehicles -- even with no melta guns equipped! Add a melta gun to the equation, and its a big surprise to the Russ that lumbers nearby.

Can I get that in cornflower blue?
A PF in a squad gives your tacs a few more options they would otherwise have not had. Very rarely does 1 upgrade give you as many different options. Sure, 25 points cheap, but your already spending points on a squad, transport, and special weapons on the squad. Whats another 10% cost for those additional options? Would you also like leather seats in your razorback sir?

Well, we were going to be there anyway...soooo
If you want to capture an objective in the center of the board, or on the other side, your going to need to use tactical marines or scouts to do this (or bikes, but thats a different thread). To do this effectively, you can either move them up in a razorback or a rhino. Doing this, however, dramatically increases the chances that they will get into assault as their moving closer to the enemy. In those instances, buying that 25 point insurance policy is more appetizing.

Now time for some of the caveats...

How many people in your party sir?
Smaller squads benefit less from the PF. 5 tac marines in a razorback don't get as much value from a PF as a 10 man squad. Thats because the entire squad can be wiped more quickly, giving less rounds for the PF to remain hidden. You can still put them in 5 man squads, just think about what your doing there.

Got nosebleed tickets
If your going to keep your tac squad in a razorback sitting on the edge of your board never leaving the razorback, then a PF is not required. There are 2 things to consider about this, however. First of all, if your looking for objective squatters, scouts going to ground are a better bang for your buck. Secondly, if your sitting on the edge of the board, how do you expect to claim any objectives in the center of the board or on their side? 2/3 of the missions are objective missions. You need to have a plan to win those.

Labmouse... that is such an awesome post I really can't think of anything to add.

I put Powerfists on all of my tactical squads and play with that idea in mind. I tend to play aggressively though, and to me the Powerfist making the difference between breaking a squad and running it down and barely winning combat and being held up is more than worth the cost of the fist.

I run a mix of power weapons and fists, but i run them for these reasons.


My power fist sergeants have combi-meltas and the squad has a melta gun. they are supposed to hunt tanks and other big nasties. the Power fist allows them to assault afterwards and finish the job if the Melta guns didn't do it.

my Power Weapon sergeants have Combi-flamers and a flamer for the squad. they are after infantry and will assault after flaming.

being focused in purpose is the key to using Tactical squads. they arn't jack of all trades, but rather another tool in a Space Marine commanders arsonal that can be just as deadly as any of the other units avaliable. Hey, you almost have to take them, might as well use them to full effect.

I take them on tacs. Then again, I might get the red thirst, and 20+ attacks on the charge is a fun toy coming from a shooting unit. Even without red thirst, my tacs usually get the charge on other tac squads. The PF has killed its fair share.

I take no sarge upgrades. My squad upgrades are a bare bones rhino, and the free options. Occasionally I take a lascannon if the list demands it.

If I want to kill things in CC, I take a squad meant for CC. If I were to buy a fist for all my sarges I would be half way to the points needed for a terminator assault squad.

It is also the reason why I avoid beatstick characters. Why spend so many points for something another unit does so very well?

I assault with my tacticals, and that power fist usually means they win against MEQ or anything that is NOT a dedicated assault unit. Which are most troops.

You can't think of Power Fists in isolation, you have to consider the role of the unit in the army as well as in the armament of the Sergeant. A Sergeant with a Power Weapon and a Melta Bomb is still 5pts cheaper.

A Power Fist complements a Combi-Weapon, or Bolter if you're not planning on charging. But consider that an Immobilized or Stunned Walker is hit on opposing WS with grenades like Melta Bombs. Stationary vehicles are hit automatically. A 5+ to penetrate an AV14 rear armoured vehicle is much easier on 2D6 than 1D6.

Charging in with a tac squad against other meqs:

PF gets 3 attacks: 1.25 dead meqs
PW gets 4 attacks: 1 dead meq.

Rest of squad (assuming 9 more guys) 1.48

On defense:

PF gets 2 attacks: .83 dead meqs
PW gets 3 attacks: .75 dead meqs

Rest of squad: .74

The weapon upgrades come pretty close against that kind of opposition, with just marginal difference between them. The upgrades also double the squads CC killing power.

Unfortunately, even with the boosted CC, the unit STILL sucks at CC against other meqs. against Geqs, they will win, but shooting them with RF bolters is often less risky.

The fist theoretically is decent against high toughness units and walkers... except they lack the volume needed to really do much. 2 attacks is not going to kill a MC, nor does it even remotely scare a walker.

Then there is how wounds are assigned. Even with a hidden fist, it is possible for it to die early. A number of armies can spam shots or CC wounds enough to force a check on him, which can fail. The good things is the I1 that the fist strikes at means the wounds can't be stacked on the same guy... but that assumes the fist survived.

If you are facing non walker vehicles, you could also just use the squads krak against AV 10, and/or a melta bomb. A PF is over kill in this application.

Overkill? Really?

Here I was thinking that more penetrating hits on vehicles were a good thing. Penning on a 5+ is not as good as penning on a 3+.

I would suggest that if you have Terminators or maybe even three or four dreads you can skip the Powerfists in fact you are probably even better off with "more Bolters" as they say.

On the other hand if you are tac squad heavy + Sternguard or something you probably want a few Power fists.

The other concern is combat resolution. I mean a Powerfist/ Powerweapon is better than nothing. All depends on how you want to/ plan on handling close combat. You want tac squads which can fight in close combat if they have to, or are you instead close combat crazy with support units.

A Veteran Sergeant of course has a few extra attacks in close combat anyway.

I think I've been swayed by the praise that people are singing about powerfists...

*sigh* I guess some of my sergeants are going to lose a power sword arm now...

notabot187 wrote:The fist theoretically is decent against high toughness units and walkers... except they lack the volume needed to really do much. 2 attacks is not going to kill a MC, nor does it even remotely scare a walker.

I think you're lending mathhammer too much value. The statistical average may be unimpressive, but it doesn't account for the vagaries of the bell curve. A few power fist attacks could very well kill an MC or a walker, especially given a few turns to do it.

And more importantly, it gives you a reasonable chance to do it AT ALL.

When a tac squad is charged by a dreadnought, or a wraithlord, the power fist makes the difference between a tac squad that has no other option but to be wiped out, and a tac squad that has a chance to make it out victoriously.

That's not even mentioning things like wraithguard, ogryn, terminators, demon princes, trygons, mephiston, or any of a HUGE host of things that a power fist can finish off, that a power weapon just sort of shrugs at.

Without the fist, they're basically just stuck as being good against light infantry, and that's it (and even then, it's debatable if they're actually "good" in this role or not). With the fist, the tac squad can take on anything.

You're already spending a lot of points on the squad, why not spend some more to cover all of the many things that a regular tac squad can't handle?

Monster Rain wrote:Overkill? Really?

Here I was thinking that more penetrating hits on vehicles were a good thing. Penning on a 5+ is not as good as penning on a 3+.

Except when you have to pay a premium for one (25 points, in a 90-170 point base squad), and free for the other...

labmouse42 wrote:There are a number of good reasons to add a powerfist to a TAC squad, along with a few caveats. At the end of the day, its a matter of personal preference, and I advise playtesting a few games with your friends to see what works best for you. I have outlined each below with a few words on each of them.

Actually there are few good reasons to give a unit with ATSKNF and especially Combat Tactics a powerfist.

labmouse42 wrote:Take a few of the bastards with us
As was mentioned, your tactical squads are going to get into assault. When your opponent wants to assault them, he will find a way to make it happen. Often your tac squad will be assaulted by a death star, and when this occurs they will break. This is where your 25 point insurance policy can come into play. You can use your powerfist as a way to snipe an IC, or to go after just a few of the expensive units. Even if you can pluck one or two models off his death star, you have helped to weaken the death star's effect on other units. If you manage to squish an IC's head, then you saved much hassle otherwise delivered to your army and gained an VP. Either way, this allows for you to take some of the bastards with you!

When you say "take a few", you are grossly overstating the ability. 2 attacks that likely hit on 4s means averaging 1 hit. If there is an invulnerable save involved, which most deathstars have, you can forget about averaging even a single wound. That is not taking a few with you, thats giving you a better chance of taking 1 with you.

labmouse42 wrote:Fear no Evil IC
I've seen many players keep an IC or MC seperate from the rest of their army, and use it to assault units with no protection. Ive seen a necron lord with a destroyer body turbo boost behind enemy lines to assault weak units. Ive seen a eldar IC on jetbike used for a similar purpose. Ive seen dreadnoughts drop-podded in my deployment zone. Ive seen lictors assault units I thought were safe. In all these cases, a PF stops those tactics dead in their tracks.

As above, averaging a single hit is not going to stop a 6 wound MC from assaulting. You may stop T4 or lower ICs from assaulting you alone, but this scenario I think is pretty rare. Dreads on the other hand have little to fear from a PF - you don't have a good chance of hurting it. Most likely a dread assaulting your squad will result in it being tied up while you try to destroy it. This is probably a good trade for the dreadnought player as the dread is much less expensive. An av 13 dread will laugh at your fist.

labmouse42 wrote:Knocking on Heaven's AV 10
If a tank comes close to your tac squad, you have the option of assaulting it and striking the rear armor with 3 STR 8 attacks. As most vehicles have AV 10 on the rear, that can destroy vehicles quite easily if they moved under 6". If they stood still, well, then its just not a good day for them. This gives your tac squads a 12" threat range to vehicles -- even with no melta guns equipped! Add a melta gun to the equation, and its a big surprise to the Russ that lumbers nearby.

Why is a vehicle coming at your squad but not moving over 6"? This sounds like "if your opponent is bad, this upgrade is good".

labmouse42 wrote:Can I get that in cornflower blue?
A PF in a squad gives your tacs a few more options they would otherwise have not had. Very rarely does 1 upgrade give you as many different options. Sure, 25 points cheap, but your already spending points on a squad, transport, and special weapons on the squad. Whats another 10% cost for those additional options? Would you also like leather seats in your razorback sir?

So basically this reason is that the other reasons are so good? The PF gives makes bad options slightly less bad, and are good for capitalizing on mistakes made by your opponent (assaulting with an IC that can be ID'd, not moving more than 6" when you are close enough to assault etc).

labmouse42 wrote:Well, we were going to be there anyway...soooo
If you want to capture an objective in the center of the board, or on the other side, your going to need to use tactical marines or scouts to do this (or bikes, but thats a different thread). To do this effectively, you can either move them up in a razorback or a rhino. Doing this, however, dramatically increases the chances that they will get into assault as their moving closer to the enemy. In those instances, buying that 25 point insurance policy is more appetizing.

This is where combat tactics come in. Together with a counter assault unit, like say terminators in a LR variant, you can move up behind/beside the terminators and use them to clear out objectives. Tactical marines are not going to win combat against a dedicated assault unit, regardless of a powerfist or not. That is the real issue. There are much better ways of clearing off objectives than the PF tactical marines in CC. Using rapid fire is much safer for your squad than assaulting. Unless you are fighting IG or tau with heavy firepower making you want to hide in assault - but you don't need the fist to win those fights anyways.

Here are good reasons:

-Your squad is not tactical marines but rather have BP+CCW. Your squad is much more likely to win a combat, so the choice of putting them there is actually a good one. So grey hunters and CSM like Pfists.

-You don't have Combat tactics. Without combat tactics, you can't voluntarily leave combat at the end of an opponent's turn to rapid fire in yours. This takes away the option to save the squad, therefore increasing the chances of winning a combat might be a good idea.

At 25 points its not an auto-include, you really have to think about how you want the unit to play. Tactical squads are much better at shooting than CC. You can have other units take the counter-assault role and dig them out, or try to get out of combat to rapid fire. Even at 15 points it wouldn't be an auto-include, which tells me that at 25 points its too expensive to use. Power weapons are similar, just too expensive for the amount of use/effect they will see.

Terminus wrote:

notabot187 wrote:The fist theoretically is decent against high toughness units and walkers... except they lack the volume needed to really do much. 2 attacks is not going to kill a MC, nor does it even remotely scare a walker.

I think you're lending mathhammer too much value. The statistical average may be unimpressive, but it doesn't account for the vagaries of the bell curve. A few power fist attacks could very well kill an MC or a walker, especially given a few turns to do it.

For a walker to be in combat with a tac squad it would have to be in the midgame. A couple of turns of 10 percent chance to destroy aren't good odds.

Ailaros wrote:And more importantly, it gives you a reasonable chance to do it AT ALL.

When a tac squad is charged by a dreadnought, or a wraithlord, the power fist makes the difference between a tac squad that has no other option but to be wiped out, and a tac squad that has a chance to make it out victoriously.

That's not even mentioning things like wraithguard, ogryn, terminators, demon princes, trygons, mephiston, or any of a HUGE host of things that a power fist can finish off, that a power weapon just sort of shrugs at.

Without the fist, they're basically just stuck as being good against light infantry, and that's it (and even then, it's debatable if they're actually "good" in this role or not). With the fist, the tac squad can take on anything.

You're already spending a lot of points on the squad, why not spend some more to cover all of the many things that a regular tac squad can't handle?

/giggle.

Again against a wraithlord you are not averaging a single wound. All those units are going to cream the tacticals, with or without the fist. You are just throwing 25 points at them in the hope that it might do something before the squad inevitably goes down. I'd rather have those 25 points in some thing that can hit back after you retreat or lose the squad.

You are spending a lot of points already, so why would you spend more? "Covering" is an inaccurate term, as all you get is a slightly better at something you are bad at. You still can't handle a wraithlord terminators, demon princes etc. You are just giving 25 more points away.

A 10% chance every turn over a few turns is better than 0%.

Of course it is. But its not 25 points better.

Subjective.

Terminus wrote:A 10% chance every turn over a few turns is better than 0%.

Buts its worse than the 28.5% chance of destroying with a melta gun shot...

Other than that, I think Dracos and Notabot pretty much sumed it up

What are we talking about now? MCs, walkers, tanks? A power fist can match or exceed a melta's potential depending on the target. And in any case, neither weapon by itself is super effective, but combined you're starting to look at pretty good odds of success.