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frgsinwntr wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

Dozer blades can sometimes be useful (depends on how much area terrain and ruins your areas uses), though personally I think it is a bad example.

Agreed that sometimes combimeltas are worth it. BUT not when a choice that stays all game is available. I'd much rather have a melta for 5 than a combimelta for even the same price

This analogy goes for a fist as well. I'd rather have something that doesn't go away. it makes the tac squad useful all game

No it doesn't, it makes it better for 0-2 assault phases, or roughly 1/6 of a game. Don't confuse an upgrade sitting there doing nothing with it being more effective then a one shot weapon. Your example of combi-melta vs melta gun is a perfect example of this as well. So what if you have 5 other turns to shoot your melta gun, you will likely have 1 really crucial moment you want to take down a vehicle in melta range, the rest of those turns it has done nothing. Besides the fact that you have a limited number of available melta guns (1 per 10 Tac man squad, 2 per SG veteran squad, 1 per 5 BA Assault Squad or Grey Hunters squad), so you really can't compare the two.

The biggest (and really only) weakness in this analogy is that HK missiles need an opportunity to fire, which is rare except on vehicles standing still.

Or on rhinos moving 6".

lol, usually mine are moving 12"

but yeah, that's one of the few other times. I guess first turn with Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader... But even then, you are pretty likely to be in Assault Cannon range.

Yes...HK's aren't all that, there is a reason why they come after combi-weapons and additional bodies.

Depending on how agressive I am, first turn is often 12"+smoke, rest of the game has little movement and is more of a "hah, I'm shooting ya from my hatch. ", meaning 6" is normal for me. ^^

My rhinos don't move first turn quite often. There is a HW inside that would like to shoot after all. Also no reason to get withing easy range of the 18-24 range weapons.

If they do move 1st turn, it often isn't very far... for the reason above.

There is also the nice ability to take HKs on iron clads or razorbacks.

Depends. If I have a shooty unit of plague marines blasting off plasma guns every turn, I might not really want them in assault, so a PF wouldn't be nessessary.

But If I have a min-maxed unit for tank hunting, I'd definitely take a PF.

It's all up to what the unit is doing. Seeing as how vanilla tactical units are just bolter-lines (for the most part), I don't think I'd put a PF on them (unless I used combat tactics, where I could put the sarge in another unit and have the other guys sit tight and shoot at stuff).

Chaos Space Marines are much better than Vanilla SMs in assault, so they benefit from the PF more (My guys have like 4 attacks on the charge, while your random tactical guy gets like two), so I'd probably take them.

notabot187 wrote:There is also the nice ability to take HKs on iron clads or razorbacks.

Plugging the HK into the simhammer, this is what was turned up when testing it vs. a rhino's front armor (the logical target for a HK)

Total Effects on Target 44.84%
Destroyed or Exploded 10.95%

Shaken Hits 11.24%
Stunned Hits 7.64%
Weapon Destroyed 7.64%
Immobilized 7.37%
Destroyed 5.3%
Exploded 5.65%

In this case, we don't give a hoot about the Shaken or Weapon Destoryed hits. Stunned is good, Immobolized, Destroyed, or Exploded all serve the same purpose for stopping a ranged transport threat. At that end, were looking at a ~18.4% to really have the effect you want on a target. Cut that number in half if their obscured.

If you have a spare 10 points you can't find a home for, I can see putting it on a vehicle, but normally....I don't know...

Those numbers are the same for any ML shot. If you have a large number of long range shots, adding additional alpha strike ability isn't bad. Esp for first turn transport popping.

BTW, the destroyed, immobile, stunned adds up to 25-26 ish.

frgsinwntr wrote:I'd also add in that the most common monstrous creatures are toughness 5-6 and not toughness 8... which means your fist that hits can cause a wound on a 2+ most times in which case melta bombs do NOTHING vs a toughness characteristic

Off the top of my head, I can't think of an MC that is t5-6 that doesn't have EW that anyone takes that also doesn't have a gazillion wounds. Carni's maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notabot187 wrote:Those numbers are the same for any ML shot. If you have a large number of long range shots, adding additional alpha strike ability isn't bad. Esp for first turn transport popping.

BTW, the destroyed, immobile, stunned adds up to 25-26 ish.

Stop making sense, damn you!

notabot187 wrote:Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

It is good that melta bombs cost 1/5th the price of the Fist especially since they have 1/2 to 1/3 the chance to damage most vehicles, and 1/12 - 1/18th the chance to damage walkers, oh, and 0% chance to damage non-vehicle models. (chance to damage is chance to get to the damage step, not overall damage chance); as i said sure, once you get to the point where you are damaging the vehicle/walker you are twice as likely to actually damage it, but a few good rolls with the fist and you get 2-3 damage results, vs the 1 you get from the meltabomb.

True H/K missiles can de-mech an opponent first turn, but so can lascannons in your squads for the same cost. Oh, and the lascannons can fire every turn, and have a slightly higher chance to damage the vehicles/shot. Power fists have more swings/opportunity of use, and can have more opportunities to use them per game. As to the cost of vehicles being removed, so then should the cost of tac squads for p-fists; which puts us back to a 2p-fists/5 h/k and if you only ever get to use the p-fists for 1 game turn you still get 3 more attacks out of them.

Combi-weapons are generally a good Idea; it is very likely you will only ever get into a situation where a combi melta wants to be fired once per game anyways, so adding it is more than reasonable. Same goes for the Combi-flamer(I rarely fire my normal flamers more than once per game). Combi-plas gets a little iffy due to the plasma-gun's role. As a SW player i am glad my Termi-armored WG can get them(and for relatively cheap, 38 points for 2+/5++, & 3 PW swings after a Plas double-tap then charge/model, and yes i would give them meltabombs for anti-tank), but for 'nilla marines they just fall short.

notabot187 wrote:Those numbers are the same for any ML shot. If you have a large number of long range shots, adding additional alpha strike ability isn't bad. Esp for first turn transport popping.

BTW, the destroyed, immobile, stunned adds up to 25-26 ish.

I'm with you on the value of popping transports early and often. Gotta crack open those candy-coated shells to get the juicy troops inside...

Here are my thoughts, and why I'm undecided.
* "Would it be worth 60 points if it could fire every turn?" (the average game length).
* Rhino's / Ironclads are the best units for them -- a TL LC RazorBack does not get as much benefit from an extra krak shot
* Don't do drugs, krak kills
* Disrupting enemy plans early on is worth it -- even that stunned for a turn throws wrenches in their strategy and limits their options.
* If your vehicle is alpha-struck before they fire, not much gain is had.
* If your army is already bristling with anti-transport, could those points be spent elsewhere?

I think this is one of those cases where I need to playtest a few games and see how they perform. And Ill get back on topic now too


Automatically Appended Next Post:

imweasel wrote:Off the top of my head, I can't think of an MC that is t5-6 that doesn't have EW that anyone takes that also doesn't have a gazillion wounds. Carni's maybe?

EW does not matter for PF purposes if your talking about T5 and above.

In regards to wounds, these MCs have lower numbers of them.
Avatar - 4 wounds
Wraithlord - 3 wounds
Tomb Spiders - 2 wounds
Demon Prince - 4 wounds
Summoned Greater Daemon : 4 wounds
BloodThirster : 4 wounds

In fact, I believe the only book out recently with 6 wounds for MCs is the 'nids. (6 wounds is what I think you mean by a gazillion) Unless your always playing 'nids, then the average MC has 50% less wounds.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is good that melta bombs cost 1/5th the price of the Fist especially since they have 1/2 to 1/3 the chance to damage most vehicles, and 1/12 - 1/18th the chance to damage walkers, oh, and 0% chance to damage non-vehicle models. (chance to damage is chance to get to the damage step, not overall damage chance); as i said sure, once you get to the point where you are damaging the vehicle/walker you are twice as likely to actually damage it, but a few good rolls with the fist and you get 2-3 damage results, vs the 1 you get from the meltabomb.

Hmmm...

So vs a walker, on average, you will manage .5 damage results (.75 if you got the charge) vs .17 damage results for a mb, or 3x the effectiveness for 5x the cost.

As for non-vehicle models, I think you are just better off avoiding them. Period.

Kommissar Kel wrote:True H/K missiles can de-mech an opponent first turn, but so can lascannons in your squads for the same cost. Oh, and the lascannons can fire every turn, and have a slightly higher chance to damage the vehicles/shot. Power fists have more swings/opportunity of use, and can have more opportunities to use them per game. As to the cost of vehicles being removed, so then should the cost of tac squads for p-fists; which puts us back to a 2p-fists/5 h/k and if you only ever get to use the p-fists for 1 game turn you still get 3 more attacks out of them.

Except we are not talking about replacing lc's with hk's, but rather pf's for hk's, which you are almost certain to use. You would have to use each one of your pf's in 2 assault phases to get the 3 more uses out of them. I would not recommend tac squads stay in combat with a unit they couldn't beat for that long.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Combi-weapons are generally a good Idea; it is very likely you will only ever get into a situation where a combi melta wants to be fired once per game anyways, so adding it is more than reasonable. Same goes for the Combi-flamer(I rarely fire my normal flamers more than once per game). Combi-plas gets a little iffy due to the plasma-gun's role. As a SW player i am glad my Termi-armored WG can get them(and for relatively cheap, 38 points for 2+/5++, & 3 PW swings after a Plas double-tap then charge/model, and yes i would give them meltabombs for anti-tank), but for 'nilla marines they just fall short.

'Nilla marines means that you are most likely going to have combat tactics so you can fall back and shoot if you still have your weapon.

imweasel wrote:'Nilla marines means that you are most likely going to have combat tactics so you can fall back and shoot if you still have your weapon.

They will mostly likely have combat tactics, but will not most likely be able to use them in the manner you describe.

Look at page 40 of your rulebook. "If the winner's total [of init test] is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance" Vs I4 models, the tac marines count as fearless on ties, and only escape on higher rolls. Thats less than a 50% escape rate (I think its ~33.7% escape rate off the top of my head, but need to number crunch it to get an exact). When fighting opponents with I5 or greater -- deathstars, pointy ears, or demons, that chance drops.

Sure you can get away from orks, guard, tau, and necrons. Out of those 3, generally I only want to be free of the orks.

I'm not saying that combat tactics is bad -- I use it all the time! When my models take 25% from shooting and would have been assaulted, I have the fall back out of assault range. I just don't rely on it to get me out of assault with units -- its great when it happens but is not my strategy.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

It is good that melta bombs cost 1/5th the price of the Fist especially since they have 1/2 to 1/3 the chance to damage most vehicles, and 1/12 - 1/18th the chance to damage walkers, oh, and 0% chance to damage non-vehicle models. (chance to damage is chance to get to the damage step, not overall damage chance); as i said sure, once you get to the point where you are damaging the vehicle/walker you are twice as likely to actually damage it, but a few good rolls with the fist and you get 2-3 damage results, vs the 1 you get from the meltabomb.

True H/K missiles can de-mech an opponent first turn, but so can lascannons in your squads for the same cost. Oh, and the lascannons can fire every turn, and have a slightly higher chance to damage the vehicles/shot. Power fists have more swings/opportunity of use, and can have more opportunities to use them per game. As to the cost of vehicles being removed, so then should the cost of tac squads for p-fists; which puts us back to a 2p-fists/5 h/k and if you only ever get to use the p-fists for 1 game turn you still get 3 more attacks out of them.

Ok, without even considering the logic of only considering "Chance to damage" instead of the actual results of the attack (ie. how much actual damage was caused) you aren't even including all the variables to make an accurate comparison. For simplicity, lets give Power Fists the best chance they can (though why you would charge a dreadnought with a PF wielding tac sarge is beyond me).

Against a stationary vehicle with rear AV 10

PF: 3 Attacks, 3 Hits, round up to 3 damage rolls (But the small chance of not having any)
MB: 1 Attack, 1 Hit, 1 damage roll (no chance of failure)
-Congrats, best case scenario just gave you 3x the results for only 5x the price!

Against a combat speed vehicle
PF: 3 Attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.5 damage rolls (again, the caveat being you can flub the hits and make them useless 1/6 of the time)
MB: 1 Attack, 1/2 hit, 1/2 damage roll (again, no chance to mess up and get nothing out of the roll)
-PF Still comes out ahead, though by just a bit. Still 5x the price.

Against Cruising Vehicles
PF: 3 Attacks, 1/2 hit, not likely to damage
MB: 1 Attack, 1/6 hit, not likely to damage
-No surprises here, but hey, you spent 5x less points on the MB, so they win due to opportunity costs.

Against a Walker:
PF: 3 Attacks, 1.5 hits, .75 of a damage roll (less vs BA, more vs sentinels/warwalkers)
MB: 1 Attack, 0.166 of a hit (unless Immobilized), but something like 0.15 chance to damage (against immobilized walkers, 1 hit, something like .9 chance to damage)
-Well, here was the dream matchup for the power fist, finally the chance to show how effective it is against walkers... yet still struggles, and contributes less the 1 damage roll... on the charge. So, here it is finally worth 5x the points (though not if the walker is immobilized, in which case its worse then MB's)

Against a Monstrous Creature:
Not even a comparison, Power Fist totally works better here... but wait, considering you just threw 25 points down a well by assaulting a Demon Prince, Trygon, Wraithlord, Swarmlord, Abaddon, Blood Thirster, etc. instead of 5 points, did you really win this comparison?


Anyway, I guess my point is yes... we should be glad MB's cost 1/5 the price. They still are a better investment of points then a Powerfist.


Second, Did you really just compare a hunter killer missile on a vehicle to a lascannon on a tactical squad? really? /boggle
First off, you take the lascannon instead of the missile launcher for that price, ie you pay 10 points for an upgrade of 1 strengths and 1 ap... making it a terrible use of points, most of the time. Second, a heavy weapon on a squad and an extra weapon on a vehicle are completely different in usage, especially considering the vehicle would still have a purpose without a HK missile, while the squad would pretty much be a point sink without a heavy weapon (luckily, the missile launcher is free!).
Also, how do you get 3 more attacks? I see 2 Powerfists (for your sake, 3 attacks per on the charge) And 5 hk missiles, meaning you get 1 more PF attack. Also, if you attack a vehicle that moved combat speed or an MC with higher WS, you will miss 1/6 more time then with the HK missiles, meaning they are equal... except you are still charging with your tactical squads.

Hey, wanted to give a quick shout out to imweasel, Kommissar Kel, Magister187, Lord PoPo, Brother-Thunder, notabot187 and everyone else who made this discussion fun and interesting. This is the stuff that dakka is made of

Now back to regularly scheduled program ...

Forget everything else for a second. Aside from all the mathhammering of specific tactics involving powerfists, lets zoom out to the larger strategy.

-If your strategy involves planning for your tactical squad to be assaulting the targets a powerfist is useful against, then they are good.

-If your strategy involves planning for your tactical squad to avoid assaults and shoot as much as possible, then taking the powerfist is counter-thematic.

Of the two strategies, tactical marines are much better at shooting, and therefore the second strategy plays to their strength more.

Spending points in a way to make your own strategy stronger is always superior than adding tactics that are counter-productive to the primary strategy.

Play to your strength, try to impose your game on the opponent. If you are going into it with the idea and strategy to fight a losing battle slightly better, you are already lost.

Add to this strategical incongruity of the powerfist for a 'niilla tacitcal squad the fact that the tactics behind the powerfist do not work out in the probability tables, and you have a poor strategical choice in taking the fist.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

It is good that melta bombs cost 1/5th the price of the Fist especially since they have 1/2 to 1/3 the chance to damage most vehicles, and 1/12 - 1/18th the chance to damage walkers, oh, and 0% chance to damage non-vehicle models. (chance to damage is chance to get to the damage step, not overall damage chance); as i said sure, once you get to the point where you are damaging the vehicle/walker you are twice as likely to actually damage it, but a few good rolls with the fist and you get 2-3 damage results, vs the 1 you get from the meltabomb.

True H/K missiles can de-mech an opponent first turn, but so can lascannons in your squads for the same cost. Oh, and the lascannons can fire every turn, and have a slightly higher chance to damage the vehicles/shot. Power fists have more swings/opportunity of use, and can have more opportunities to use them per game. As to the cost of vehicles being removed, so then should the cost of tac squads for p-fists; which puts us back to a 2p-fists/5 h/k and if you only ever get to use the p-fists for 1 game turn you still get 3 more attacks out of them.
Combi-weapons are generally a good Idea; it is very likely you will only ever get into a situation where a combi melta wants to be fired once per game anyways, so adding it is more than reasonable. Same goes for the Combi-flamer(I rarely fire my normal flamers more than once per game). Combi-plas gets a little iffy due to the plasma-gun's role. As a SW player i am glad my Termi-armored WG can get them(and for relatively cheap, 38 points for 2+/5++, & 3 PW swings after a Plas double-tap then charge/model, and yes i would give them meltabombs for anti-tank), but for 'nilla marines they just fall short.

You fail to take into account that the HK missile does not replace a ML of a tac squad like the lascannon do. So first turn youd be getting 2 str 8 shots vs 1 str 9 hit. Getting in a str 8 hit on the first turn is also way more useful than getting in 3 str 8 hits when the transport already have hit your lines. That said I dont think HK missiles are a good investment either. Generaly the only upgrade I take is combi weapons and the occasional dozer blade (we do play with quite alot of terrain tho). HK missiles goes on IronClads but pretty much nothing else.

Dracos wrote:Stuff that made perfect sense

Yup.

sourclams wrote:

Dracos wrote:Stuff that made perfect sense

Yup.

I had a lul...

But anyway. Another question:

Would you consider TAC power fists to be worth it if surrounded by Kantor's bubble of +1 attackyness? I don't use kantor myself, and I would prefer it if we could stay away from arguments of the validity of having Kantor as an HQ, but my friends do, and I was wondering if that extra attack would make them worth that 25 points.

Also, the melta bomb comparisons made have been really great. If the math posted by Magister187 is correct, the 500% cost difference far outweighs the 300% greater effectiveness of the fist. I think however, that they understate the value that a fist has against infantry. Powerfists can help a TAC squad break out of a blob (please don't mistake this for the, now jargon, "blob" as used by IG players, I don't even know what... "blob"... means technically speaking, I'm just referring to a big unit of weak infantry) sent to keep a TAC squad from holding an objective/shooting/moving etc. The same could be said about other units like assault squads, though a TAC squad is likely to be wiped by such units even with a fist.

As I've said earlier however, if I can assume that my opponent is good enough to sneak a unit past me to engage one or two of my objective holders (which I agree is about the best thing you can expect your TAC squads to do for you.. most of the time) then I feel pretty confident that, at some point or another, I will have done something to at least partially incapacitate whatever threat he/she has sent my way. So I don't really feel that you should assume that you're going to be facing say, a Trygon, and still see it with 6 wounds still attached to it.

As for the arguments for HK missiles... I think that 10 points for something that hits 66% of the time, and penetrates Av 11 only half of that, seems worthless.. now the argument can well be made that glancing hits against transports can be almost as annoying as penetrating ones, but I don't think that 10 points is a good cost for these. Are they likely to get their points back? Actually yes they are. But I just don't see many opportunities for rhinos/backs to be using such things.

Finally, the dozer blade. I actually would take these well in advance of a power fist/power weapon. As a former mech commander, I felt that being able to go through terrain with near impunity was a huge asset to me. If the option is to save five points, and risk being channeled by terrain, or losing 16% of my transports' mobility to poor rolls, or spend five points and worry about none of these things (unless you really... REALLY suck at rolling :p), I know what I'm going for. In addition, now that I use thunderfire Cannons (yes... I use Thunderfire cannons.. ) the lack of dozer blades that I see on the table top has me giggling hysterically as I tremor multiple tanks a game into immobilization. I know that it's exceedingly rare to see things that absolutely force you to take a dangerous terrain check, but the mobility alone that this 5 point upgrade can afford you is gold.

labmouse42 wrote:

danp164 wrote:I think the problem youve got with this discussion is that Tac squads are used by diffferent people with different aims. People who intend to leave Tac squads in the rear for defensive/heavy weapons purposes wile using assault squads and terminators for CC are unlikely to plump 25 points for a power fist.e.

This is a QFT. I have a feeling that this debate is 2 sides, one of which saying "Apples are Red!" and the other saying "Bananas are Yellow!" Their both right (barring the odvious granny smith apples, bla bla bla)

TAC squads utilized in aggressive manners benefit more from a PF. A player who moves his tacticals up like that to claim objectives will find the PF very helpful for the options it gives.
TAC squads sitting in a razorback deep in your deployment zone holding an objective don't need a PF. A player who uses tacticals in that way will not find any use for PFs.

I think both Danp and Labmouse have hit the mark right here. Different players have different strategies, and likewise, will outfit their units differently. I have friends who play Vanilla marines who will never/rarely ever give their Tact Sgt's Power Weapons, let alone Power Fists. I also have friends who equip them with at least a Power Weapon, sometimes even a Power Fist (myself being one of them).

Ultimately, in the end, it really depends on your own strategy and how you choose to use your units. If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty facts about it, then here are some inherent traits on Tact Squads and Power Weapon variants.

1. Tact Squads aren't the best at CC, but with their above average stat lines, have a good chance of surviving against your other average Troop choices. Against Death Star units, they will obviously be inferior against.

2. Power Weapons/Fists, while very useful, aren't effective against all armies. In the end, it ultimately comes down to how you use your Tact Squads in your list. If you tend to stay away from CC, then it would stand to say that you shouldn't give your Sgt's any Power Weapons. If you tend to use them in CC (or at least if you know you'll get into CC), it would be logical to give them some sort of Power Weapon variant.

If your strategy tends to be the latter, then it's important to know which Power Weapon variant is more effective. Below is a post I've written on Tact Squad load outs. Bare in mind this is only if you intend/expect them in CC. I've taken out the non-discussed material, and just left what Power Weapon variant the Sgt should take.

In My "All-Comers" Loadout: Power Fist: For the most versatility you can get against the majority of the lists you'll face, a Power Fist is the way to go. Against most vehicles, it will likely penetrate easily. Against infantry, you're likely to cause at least 1 wound. Against Walkers and Monstrous Creatures, it'll provide a chance of potentially winning an otherwise unlikely winnable fight.

Against Horde Armies (Tyrannids, Orks, and occasionally IG): Power Weapon: Power Weapons are a little better than Power Fists here, because against such large quantities of models, you want the extra attack from the CCW (or Bolt Pistol), especially against Orks, where you will be striking at a higher initiative.

Against MEQ, Necrons, (and occasionally IG) Power Fist: Statistically, Power Fists will wound more against MEQ's than Power Weapons.

Against Eldar: Power Weapon: Power Weapons will outperform Power Fists because most Eldar will strike at a higher initiative than you, so going at Init 4 or 1 is irrelevant, and since you’re already wounding on a 3+, the extra attack from the CCW (or Bolt Pistol) will increase your chances of causing more wounds.

And that's my 2 cents on the subject. Hope it was insightful.

On the topic of combi-meltas, I actually always preferred a combi-flamer. You never know when that flamer will come in handy, "wasting" a melta slot for a regular flamer is too painful, you're not expending a one-shot weapon on an attack that may whiff. and you usually only need/get to fire it once anyway since you're that close.

Magister187 wrote:Against a Monstrous Creature:
Not even a comparison, Power Fist totally works better here... but wait, considering you just threw 25 points down a well by assaulting a Demon Prince, Trygon, Wraithlord, Swarmlord, Abaddon, Blood Thirster, etc. instead of 5 points, did you really win this comparison?

I agree wholly with the Vehicle analysis(for obvious reasons )

Now for the monsterous creatures, I never advocated assaulting them(although I can see why you thought I was, I should have been more clear). I was merely stating that between them and bog-standard infantry/whatever P-Fists are obviously superior(vs T4-7, and 4+ or better saves: about 25 points superior, than no Power item). I had actually meant their bit for when you get assaulted by them, and they can tear open your Transport like a wet paper-bag(or often somewthing else in their army can for them; so they can assault the yummy marine-meat inside)

Magister187 wrote:Second, Did you really just compare a hunter killer missile on a vehicle to a lascannon on a tactical squad? really? /boggle
First off, you take the lascannon instead of the missile launcher for that price, ie you pay 10 points for an upgrade of 1 strengths and 1 ap... making it a terrible use of points, most of the time. Second, a heavy weapon on a squad and an extra weapon on a vehicle are completely different in usage, especially considering the vehicle would still have a purpose without a HK missile, while the squad would pretty much be a point sink without a heavy weapon (luckily, the missile launcher is free!).
Also, how do you get 3 more attacks? I see 2 Powerfists (for your sake, 3 attacks per on the charge) And 5 hk missiles, meaning you get 1 more PF attack. Also, if you attack a vehicle that moved combat speed or an MC with higher WS, you will miss 1/6 more time then with the HK missiles, meaning they are equal... except you are still charging with your tactical squads.

I was only comparing an equally priced weapon upgrade, as in you have extra points, what do you take: 1 extra krak missile, or a (ever so slightly) better heavy weapon. Personally, I just start throwing Storm bolters on Sgts, maybe Combi weapons. i would only take H/Ks as an absolute "I have run out of things to put on my units and still have spare points". I would take them on an ironclad... But first I would have to take an Iron Clad.

labmouse42 wrote:Hey, wanted to give a quick shout out to imweasel, Kommissar Kel, Magister187, Lord PoPo, Brother-Thunder, notabot187 and everyone else who made this discussion fun and interesting. This is the stuff that dakka is made of

Now back to regularly scheduled program ...

And to you...

Lord PoPo wrote:

Would you consider TAC power fists to be worth it if surrounded by Kantor's bubble of +1 attackyness? I don't use kantor myself, and I would prefer it if we could stay away from arguments of the validity of having Kantor as an HQ, but my friends do, and I was wondering if that extra attack would make them worth that 25 points.

Still no. 3 fists = 2 Terminators who have TH/SS and actually belong in CC.

sourclams wrote:

Lord PoPo wrote:

Would you consider TAC power fists to be worth it if surrounded by Kantor's bubble of +1 attackyness? I don't use kantor myself, and I would prefer it if we could stay away from arguments of the validity of having Kantor as an HQ, but my friends do, and I was wondering if that extra attack would make them worth that 25 points.

Still no. 3 fists = 2 Terminators who have TH/SS and actually belong in CC.

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, two terminators of that pattern are at least 80 points and three powerfists would be 75.

About the Kantor list:

It depends entirely on the list. But I have a feeling that in order to get as many sternguard as I possibly could, that there would be little room for fists on tactical marines.

IIRC, Kantor does give stubborn, which is pretty decent to combine with a fist. Again it would depend on the list - but I would consider it (likely discarding the idea for more toys).

notabot187 wrote:

Anubis_513 wrote:So let me ask this, at what points cost would you consider taking power fists for a Tac squad?

15, and PW at 5 (maybe 10). You already are paying 10 extra points for a sarge (whether you like it or not, 5 guys should cost 80, not 90) so a 10 point reduction in price seems reasonable. The number of attacks the fist an PW get aren't all that high, so 41 total model cost (16 for being a marine, 10 for sarge tax, 15 for weapon) for a fist is completely reasonable. (that is what orks pay for a 2 wound guy with FC and more attacks after all)

Compare that 51 points to an assault terminator and suddenly he seems kinda expensive. I have to agree that the power weapon upgrades could do to be a little cheaper on the tactical marines.

If you could give all the Tact squad members chain swords and bolt pistols I would say it's worth it to take a power fist but in most cases no I don't waste my points on close combat weapons for my sarge in fact I usually just give him a bolter so he can fire with the rest of the squad because thats essentially what a Tact squad is for: shooting things.

Great thread, fellas. It seems, there's always something interesting being thrown around on Dakka.

After spending a half hour (of guilty work-time) reading through all the posts, I'm impressed. Both
arguments have been presented very convincingly, but I won't be swapping out the Fists on any
of my 3 Mech Tac Squads.

There are definitely good reasons to keep the Fists, though the 25pt price tag does make it
a hard decision and one that I considered at length before re-modelling my Sgts. After reflection,
some discussion with like-minded friends and taking all the other pros and cons into account, what
tipped me in favour of using the Fists was the effect they had on an opponent's thinking.

As the statistics presented above show, the Power Fist isn't necessarily great at killing the things
you'd ideally like it to kill in CC, namely MCs, Dreads and multi-wounders. The thing is, only having
a 1in3 or 1in4 chance of killing/wounding something doesn't sound great on paper, but your
opponent probably isn't going to be willing to take that risk or at least give him a moment of
pause.

For me, influencing/restricting an opponent in that way makes the Fist worth taking. Just...

Cheers.

sourclams wrote:Read Dracos' posts. Read them again, if necessary.

How incredibly condescending.

I read the thread. I don't disagree with Dracos' post. I'm not saying a powerfist is a good or bad choice.

But a few people (including you) have put forward the idea that, if the enemy manages to assault one of your Tactical Squads, YOUR ENTIRE PLAN HAS GONE SERIOUSLY WRONG. This is rubbish. A Rhino is easy to pop. Outflanking/Deep Striking assault units exist. If your plan is going to crumble when one of your Tactical Squads is assaulted, you're not planning realistically.