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If you were expecting your unit to be embroiled in CC at some point, but you expected that whatever unit that was attacking it to be on it's last wound or two, would you take PF, PW, or none?

Terminus wrote:What are we talking about now? MCs, walkers, tanks? A power fist can match or exceed a melta's potential depending on the target. And in any case, neither weapon by itself is super effective, but combined you're starting to look at pretty good odds of success.

My guess would be AV12 walkers . Against tanks then the PF is nice but there are few instances where it would make a huge difference. The krak grenades can do the job by themselves against AV10 and sometimes also the rather infrequent AV11. Against MCs a fist will cause very little damage. An average of 0.55 wounds vs DP (without MoT) or 0.83 wounds vs a TMC with 6 wounds...


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Lord PoPo wrote:If you were expecting your unit to be embroiled in CC at some point, but you expected that whatever unit that was attacking it to be on it's last wound or two, would you take PF, PW, or none?

None...paying 25pts for a once in a (guardsmans) lifetime opportunity is not worth it. Besides. IF you assume that the TMC has lost 66% of his wounds then you might as well assume that your tac squad is down to less than 5 models as well...

Don't forget if you are talking facing walkers or whatever say you have two squads or two Combat squads, maybe they took a couple hits. Oh look we can charge both in at this Walker/ whatever before it completely creams us.

You want some Powerfists in there they can do so much when you need it the most. Doesn't mean there aren't different ways to take them: Dreads, Termies, Tac squads, Lysander, Assault squads.

Honestly the best thing to do if you are uncertain is just take Lysander.

I think the problem youve got with this discussion is that Tac squads are used by diffferent people with different aims. People who intend to leave Tac squads in the rear for defensive/heavy weapons purposes wile using assault squads and terminators for CC are unlikely to plump 25 points for a power fist.

People who are using their Tac squads up front are more liekly to drop the 25 points for a Pfist purely because if that power fist kills 2 models in the entire game, its earned itself back, hell its got a good chance to cream a vehicle its more than returned on investment.

That said, personally I (Bare in mind this is on Grey slayers NOT tacs) use 2 plasma/melta a P pistol and a Power weapon deployed via drop pod. I keep the combat punch, the anti armour punch and tbh dont care if i am charged as most base troops strike after me, ive got a good chance of getting the counterattack bonus and my P weapon strike at initiative.

Lord PoPo wrote:Okay, so you say that it's a waste if you put it on every TAC squad, but what about putting it on the squads that are most likely to see combat?

You should almost never plan on your tac squads seeing cc. If that happens, something went wrong or you did something wrong.

Not saying it's not going to happen. You just shouldn't plan on it.


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notabot187 wrote:I take no sarge upgrades. My squad upgrades are a bare bones rhino, and the free options. Occasionally I take a lascannon if the list demands it.

If I want to kill things in CC, I take a squad meant for CC. If I were to buy a fist for all my sarges I would be half way to the points needed for a terminator assault squad.

It is also the reason why I avoid beatstick characters. Why spend so many points for something another unit does so very well?

Beware of this player. He is dangerous.


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Terminus wrote:
I think you're lending mathhammer too much value. The statistical average may be unimpressive, but it doesn't account for the vagaries of the bell curve. A few power fist attacks could very well kill an MC or a walker, especially given a few turns to do it.

Would that be before or after said unit ate the tac squad? A few turns can easily eat the vast majority of a tac squad, rendering it quite useless.

Goog thing you still might have that 25pt upgrade on a neutered squad.

imweasel wrote:

Lord PoPo wrote:Okay, so you say that it's a waste if you put it on every TAC squad, but what about putting it on the squads that are most likely to see combat?

You should almost never plan on your tac squads seeing cc. If that happens, something went wrong or you did something wrong.

Not saying it's not going to happen. You just shouldn't plan on it.

Hold on - you're saying that you SHOULDN'T plan on anything going wrong?

You're playing games assuming that your enemy is so incompetent he can't pop an AV11 vehicle? If I'm playing an objective game against Marines, and there are objectives in the center of the table, Target Priority goes on the enemy transports before anything else.

Read Dracos' posts. Read them again, if necessary.

Dracos wrote:The PF gives makes bad options slightly less bad, and are good for capitalizing on mistakes made by your opponent .

This is the crux of what you missed in my post. The advantage a PF gives is options to your unit and expands their flexibility. In games Ive played Ive encountered all kinds of strange situations -- and I am sure you have too, as every game is not the same. When those strange situations appear, you want to be able to utilize them, and extra options gives you more opportunities.

I play 40k with humans, who do sometimes make mistakes -- even the very good players. When they do, I want the ability to capitalize on them.

Having those extra options also limits my opponents options. If a MC has 2 wounds left on it, the player will not want to move it near my tac sqaud as he will recognize the threat. Limiting your opponents options is just as important as giving yourself extra ones.

It does not "Turn a tac squad into an assault squad" or "Make tac squads stand up to assault squads" A PF does not guarantee that your squad will make dreads cower in fear. The only thing a PF does is give your squad options, and thats why they can be a worthwhile 25 point upgrade.

In this, we can agree to disagree, and continue civil discussions on different threads

the most i spend on tac squads is MAYBE a powerweapon. im a big fan of cheap and disposable but lots of boots on the ground. for 25 pts a pop, across 6 units thats 150pts i can instead use for my commander, or part of a dev suqad. ive nly played a few games with my mehrines and this tatic but its worked well so far. lots and lots of min upgrade (melta/ml) dro pod marines. and some devs/dreads as backup.

my theroy (wich also plays off local meta)
is that if tac marines get assaulted they will loose, so why spend 25 pts per unit trying to stop the inevitable? tac squads primary strength is in the shooting, and trying to dual purpose is wasteful. and the points saved can get me more boots, and more dakka on the gound.

just my 2 bits

danp164 wrote:I think the problem youve got with this discussion is that Tac squads are used by diffferent people with different aims. People who intend to leave Tac squads in the rear for defensive/heavy weapons purposes wile using assault squads and terminators for CC are unlikely to plump 25 points for a power fist.e.

This is a QFT. I have a feeling that this debate is 2 sides, one of which saying "Apples are Red!" and the other saying "Bananas are Yellow!" Their both right (barring the odvious granny smith apples, bla bla bla)

TAC squads utilized in aggressive manners benefit more from a PF. A player who moves his tacticals up like that to claim objectives will find the PF very helpful for the options it gives.
TAC squads sitting in a razorback deep in your deployment zone holding an objective don't need a PF. A player who uses tacticals in that way will not find any use for PFs.

I used to run Powerfists on Tactical squads, and I can tell you right now they are a waste of points.

First of all, a Tactical sargeant must have a matching combi-weapon special, so Powerweapons are of the question (and not needed). Powerfists may work in theory, but in practice they just don't make their points.

Tactical squads should be combat squadded (unless KP games), so you only have 5 models for the powerfist. Any good general should keep his tactical squads out of CC (except for CC targets of opportunity, like vehicles and weak squads). Hardcore CC unit that you would need the powerfist against (Dreadnoughts, Nobs, Combat SCs, MCs) will kill you 50 times over before you get your attacks in.

Save the points for some real CC units (TH/SS termies I'm looking at you). These guys have a 2+/3++ and are effing crazy in CC and will do the job while your Tactical squads provide fire support and hold objectives.

I'm not space marines player, but I do play Chaos Marines and for Chaos Marines powerfists are almost a must.

Chaos Marines are strongest in the 12" range, where they can rapid fire and take/give an assault at full effectiveness. Due to the troops operations taking place close to enemy lines you often end up in combat, and many people will think twice about charging a walker/independent character into a squad with a fist. I find they give more psychological advantage than numerical advantage, people will often charge other things or hold off an assault because they know your basic troops can actually hurt their walkers/MCs in CC.

The difference is that CSM ISN'T space marines.

CSMs are pretty much always fielded in 10 man squads.
Every single one has 2 attacks and is atleast somewhat good in combat.
They don't have ATSKNF, so a failed sweep kills them. That means that they NEED to win combat. A fist is "pretty" decent here.

'Nilla marines are different. First, they can be combat squaded. A hidden fist is good in a 10 man squad, in a 5 man squad...not so much.
Normal marines rock a mighty single attack...this sort of shucks, they want to avoid any and all combats, this is NOT helped by the fist.
Lastly, they can actually disengage by auto-failing morale and don't fear the sweep at all.

So the summary: Nilla Tac squad =/= CSM squad.

DarthSpader wrote:the most i spend on tac squads is MAYBE a powerweapon. im a big fan of cheap and disposable but lots of boots on the ground. for 25 pts a pop, across 6 units thats 150pts i can instead use for my commander, or part of a dev suqad. ive nly played a few games with my mehrines and this tatic but its worked well so far. lots and lots of min upgrade (melta/ml) dro pod marines. and some devs/dreads as backup.

I think that it would be a huge waste to spend the 150 points you mentioned on 6 TAC squads... That said... I can't imagine a time when you'd be fielding 6 full marine squads like that, and even if you were, why you would give more than one or two a fist.

No one is saying that equipping your whole army with fists is a good idea (well maybe one or two people are), but the argument is whether a fist or power weapon can be worth more than the 25 points you spend on it.

imweasel wrote:

Lord PoPo wrote:Okay, so you say that it's a waste if you put it on every TAC squad, but what about putting it on the squads that are most likely to see combat?

You should almost never plan on your tac squads seeing cc. If that happens, something went wrong or you did something wrong.

Not saying it's not going to happen. You just shouldn't plan on it.

I do plan for possibilities. The TAC squad in question is one that is always up at midfield, and thus is much more likely to face CC. I find it hard to keep them out of CC, and often, the rush that my opponent is in to engage in melee against that squad leaves them open to counter assaults elsewhere in their army (I know this sounds like circumstantial BS... but it's not, just purely circumstantial... I promise). Even when that's not the case however, there are times when I make mistakes in my coverage, or my opponent is straight up better than me.



@those of you who say that a powerweapon/fist is not worth it
Is there any time in which you would consider putting a fist into a list? if so, when?

If you combat squad your Tacs it is worth it to take the PF. You keep your heavy weapon halves in the back, they should not see combat, however your forward combat squads can see CC. Even tac marines are not bad in CC, a power fist makes them much more dangerous. You take options away from your opponent. if you opponent sees a combat squad on a objective with no PF and his dread is close enough he can charge, if that Tac squad has a PF it makes him second guess the move. I would not find the points for every squad but 1 or 2 can be advantageous. For example, I played a 500 pt game this past week, My Tac squad was charged by 3 Nid warriors built for CC. Not only did my Marines survive and keep the objective, they won the combat in 2 rounds, losing just 1 marine (he charged into cover) because of the PF causing instant death on warriors that are T4 with no save. Without that they had 3W each, I would have had no chance. That 25 pts won the game. and it could do the same things as just a deterrant as mentioned above. (the scenario was first contact from the BM book).

Nah, I say that even PFs in tac squads used aggressively suck. It is a 25 point upgrade that doesn't really do its job that well. Agianst MCs, it might put a wound on it, it might not. Against walkers, it doesn't out preform a simple melta bomb by much (10-15 pecent depending on charge, vs about 5 percent, might be double or triple chances, but 5 times cost and still crap odds)

What role does it actually do a good job in? Multiple wound infantry, and ICs. ICs are likely a rare unit, 1-2 per army usually. If they don't have a good invul, or immune to eternal warrior, they might get splatted by a fist (got to hit and not roll a 1). Personally that is to many ifs... Multiple wound infantry is a rarity. Most common that ISN"T eternal warrior or great invul is nid warriors and nobs. A tac squad is going to go down hard PF or not to nobs, warriors might be a long combat, but tacs will still probably lose.

My personal opinion is tacs aren't good in CC, with any upgrade. They can take out Geqs and reduced Meqs squads, but they don't exactly need a fist to do that. I use bolt pistol and chainsword on my aggressively oriented sarges, and occasionally spurge on a PW when points allow. Against units I might actually want to assault, a PW is a decent choice since it doesn't have to kill much to get its points back. 1 marine dead or 3 guard, VS 2 marines and 6 guard for the fist.

I know the game isn't getting points back, but if you must take an aggressive stance with a tactical squad, no upgrade or at most a PW is a better option than the fist.

PFs in Tac squads are like buying insurance. You hope you don't need it but you are happy to have it when you do.

notabot187 wrote:I know the game isn't getting points back, but if you must take an aggressive stance with a tactical squad, no upgrade or at most a PW is a better option than the fist.

Not really. I use squads with in Drop Pods with Sergeants that have Combi-Meltas and Powerfists all the time, and the added assault potential of the Fist helps a lot. Especially since you're going to lose a few Marines on the way in.

Anubis_513 wrote:PFs in Tac squads are like buying insurance. You hope you don't need it but you are happy to have it when you do.

The trick about insurance is, you only insure things that have huge downside risks and the insurance mitigates all or most of it, or when the insurance is cheap. Neither of those things apply to a Power Fist.

The downside risk is your squad being engages with something in CC that they can't deal with well, typically an MC or a Walker (Cases can be made on the killing of vehicles, but as people have pointed out kraks and possibly melta bombs get that job done anyway). Against any MC or Walker, a Powerfist is unlikely to prevent the destruction of the squad. Even if you manage to survive 2 rounds of combat, you end up throwing down 4 attacks, likely hitting twice and scoring from 0-2 wounds or damage rolls. The end result is the same, but you went ahead and made a 175point squad a 200 point squad, a significant increase.

In the end, it seems like a pretty risky investment of points, considering it does not significantly reduce the downside risk of getting charged by a big baddy.

Btw, this is coming from someone who aced a Chaos Sorcerer last Sunday with a Tac Sarge with Powerfist. The squad was still wiped out to the man by the Khorne Berserkers with him, but at least I took out that damn IC!

Anubis_513 wrote:If you combat squad your Tacs it is worth it to take the PF. You keep your heavy weapon halves in the back, they should not see combat, however your forward combat squads can see CC. Even tac marines are not bad in CC, a power fist makes them much more dangerous.

To what? You have a Power Fist guy with four wounds. Against assault squads, you're dead. Even if you get the charge, you're dead. Four Tac Marines + Sarge with fist can't reliably kill 2 Plague Marines in one combat phase.

Against all the things you would beat in CC with a powerfist, the vast majority of those would have been beaten without a fist. And on the very short list of things that are now hurtable because your 5 Tac Marines have a fist, like AV12 walkers and Trygons and Wraithlords, you shouldn't be willing to put 5 Tac Marines into combat with the majority of those things regardless.

Anubis_513 wrote:PFs in Tac squads are like buying insurance. You hope you don't need it but you are happy to have it when you do.

Insurance is usually a sucker bet, or they wouldn't offer it.

The only time one should buy it is A: The LAW (in judge Dreads voice) or B: the downside risk is so bad you can't recover like: health insurance (debatable for young and healthy types), death insurance (it isn't insuring against life, dur), or property that is your income.

Good insurance will actually cover you when the bad result happens. Bad insurance... Well what is the point of paying for insurance that A: is so restrictive you can never claim, and/or B: if you do claim doesn't pay out enough to even help much. A power fist is a full priced premium with cut rate return and low chance of paying out.

Anubis_513 wrote:If you combat squad your Tacs it is worth it to take the PF. You keep your heavy weapon halves in the back, they should not see combat, however your forward combat squads can see CC. Even tac marines are not bad in CC, a power fist makes them much more dangerous. You take options away from your opponent. if you opponent sees a combat squad on a objective with no PF and his dread is close enough he can charge, if that Tac squad has a PF it makes him second guess the move. I would not find the points for every squad but 1 or 2 can be advantageous. For example, I played a 500 pt game this past week, My Tac squad was charged by 3 Nid warriors built for CC. Not only did my Marines survive and keep the objective, they won the combat in 2 rounds, losing just 1 marine (he charged into cover) because of the PF causing instant death on warriors that are T4 with no save. Without that they had 3W each, I would have had no chance. That 25 pts won the game. and it could do the same things as just a deterrant as mentioned above. (the scenario was first contact from the BM book).

If he is a bad player then yes. No dread fear a fist with 5 wounds.

@Lord PoPo, the only time where I would consider a fist would be in a Melta squad which you intend to use as a deterant midfield and then only if you have some SC that downgrades combat tactics to stubborn.

sourclams wrote:Against all the things you would beat in CC with a powerfist, the vast majority of those would have been beaten without a fist.

Beaten, yes.

Broken and run down? Not necessarily. I find that the extra -1 or -2 that a fist adds to your combat resolution makes a pretty big difference.

Anubis_513 wrote:If you combat squad your Tacs it is worth it to take the PF. You keep your heavy weapon halves in the back, they should not see combat, however your forward combat squads can see CC. Even tac marines are not bad in CC, a power fist makes them much more dangerous. You take options away from your opponent. if you opponent sees a combat squad on a objective with no PF and his dread is close enough he can charge, if that Tac squad has a PF it makes him second guess the move. I would not find the points for every squad but 1 or 2 can be advantageous. For example, I played a 500 pt game this past week, My Tac squad was charged by 3 Nid warriors built for CC. Not only did my Marines survive and keep the objective, they won the combat in 2 rounds, losing just 1 marine (he charged into cover) because of the PF causing instant death on warriors that are T4 with no save. Without that they had 3W each, I would have had no chance. That 25 pts won the game. and it could do the same things as just a deterrant as mentioned above. (the scenario was first contact from the BM book).

Your example is obtuse and vague. 500pts? Nid warriors?

Just how limited of a scenario are you making out to take a 'must take' 25pt upgrade every single time.

imweasel wrote:Just how limited of a scenario are you making out to take a 'must take' 25pt upgrade every single time.

It isn't a "must take every single time" just like not having a power fist can be a problem occasionally.

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:Against all the things you would beat in CC with a powerfist, the vast majority of those would have been beaten without a fist.

Beaten, yes.

Broken and run down? Not necessarily. I find that the extra -1 or -2 that a fist adds to your combat resolution makes a pretty big difference.

Well, generally you don't want to beat your opponent and run them down the first turn of combat. It gets your guys a bad case of dead if their isn't cover to D6 into.

I personally hate it when you CC a guard, tau, DE warrior unit too quickly then you eat plasma/flashlight/poisoned to death the next turn.

Monster Rain wrote:
It isn't a "must take every single time" just like not having a power fist can be a problem occasionally.

Most folks advocating a pf in this thread almost always include the upgrade and are even advocating it.

And it has been repeatedly pointed out, it's often such a rare occurance that it is useful, it's not worth taking at 25pts.

Give me an example of a better way to spend those 25 pts.

I like fists, but i don't have them on all my squads.


Only Tac squads that will be going after vehicles, walkers, and MCs will have one. other wise it's a power weapon.

If I am running a full 10 man squad I'll always go for the fist and combi-weapon. 5 guys just don't live long enough for the fist to do it's work. The idea behind the fist is denying the enemy an action. A powerfist can stop IC's from bullying the squad around (I love to use my terminator librarian to bully small marine squads with no CC weapon). Like the heavy weapon(I have a missile launcher but won't likely use it unless my opponent shows me rear armor w/o a cover save or I am already on an objective) in a tactical squad, the powerfist is a weapon of opportunity, if something vulnerable to it presents itself, take the shot, otherwise proceed to the objective and pitch a tent. You pay a premium for this kind of flexibility but when the opponent doesn't take the powerfist it means you get to win (I believe someone presented an argument showing that a PF nearly doubles a tac squads combat ability)