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Anubis_513 wrote:Give me an example of a better way to spend those 25 pts.

Dozer blades for transports? H/K's? Combi weapons? Anything?

Exactly, Tac Marines are flexible. they are a jack of all trades, master of none. If you can offset a perceived weakness it grants you more flexability

imweasel wrote:And it has been repeatedly pointed out, it's often such a rare occurance that it is useful, it's not worth taking at 25pts.

Saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true. You won't even allow for the possibility that tactical squads utilized for different jobs might benefit differently from certain Close Combat upgrades? As has been repeatedly pointed out?

Grey Templar wrote:Only Tac squads that will be going after vehicles, walkers, and MCs will have one. other wise it's a power weapon.

That's interesting. I usually go with Power Fist or BP/CCW, based on what the squads intended purpose is.

notabot187 wrote:Well, generally you don't want to beat your opponent and run them down the first turn of combat. It gets your guys a bad case of dead if their isn't cover to D6 into.

I personally hate it when you CC a guard, tau, DE warrior unit too quickly then you eat plasma/flashlight/poisoned to death the next turn.

If combat tactics were guaranteed to get you away I would agree. The fact is you can lose the Init check to run away, and then your troop counts as fearless. In that case, the 1 or 2 combat resolution can make a difference to the number of saves your making.

As everyone has already mentioned, a dedicated assault squad will win over a TAC squad. The question is do they win by a resolution of 3 or a resolution of 5?

Combi weapons are a one trick pony, the power fist always helps out should your squad find its way into CC. And when holding objectives, this tends to happen.

imweasel wrote:Dozer blades for transports?

Really???

You will be hard pressed to convince people that dozer blades are better investments than power fists.

labmouse42 wrote:f combat tactics were guaranteed to get you away I would agree. The fact is you can lose the Init check to run away, and then your troop counts as fearless. In that case, the 1 or 2 combat resolution can make a difference to the number of saves your making.

Then there's the fact that you can't rally if the opponent is within 6 inches of you and they get to consolidate when you fall back.

And if you're using Vulkan or another character with Chapter Tactics you don't even have that option.

Monster Rain wrote:
Saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true. You won't even allow for the possibility that tactical squads utilized for different jobs might benefit differently from certain Close Combat upgrades? As has been repeatedly pointed out?

Why in the world are you using tac squads to melee mc's, walkers or vehicles? Or anything else for that matter?

Just because a bad purpose has been repeatedly stated, that makes the bad purpose right or correct? Really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

labmouse42 wrote:

imweasel wrote:Dozer blades for transports?

Really???

You will be hard pressed to convince people that dozer blades are better investments than power fists.

Falls under the anything category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anubis_513 wrote:Combi weapons are a one trick pony, the power fist always helps out should your squad find its way into CC. And when holding objectives, this tends to happen.

And pf's aren't a 'one trick pony'? They are of such limited use, they might as well be a one shot weapon that can be used in a plethora of situations rather than the limited scenarios shown here as 'evidence' for taking a pf.

Monster Rain wrote:

sourclams wrote:Against all the things you would beat in CC with a powerfist, the vast majority of those would have been beaten without a fist.

Beaten, yes.

Broken and run down? Not necessarily. I find that the extra -1 or -2 that a fist adds to your combat resolution makes a pretty big difference.

Really? Give me an example here. Ten Guardsmen? Five Fire Warriors? Half a dozen Dire Avengers?

5 Dozer Blades > 1 tac fist.

So what would you choose?
Making one of your unit go from very sucky to sucky in combat or making most of your vehicles able to move through cover with impudence?

The fact is that I only add fists after everything else. The fact is that I'd rather take Combi-weapons, HK-Missiles, Dozers blades, upping the hb's to las on the preds, turning tac flamers into meltas.

All these go before the fist.

EDIT: And all those things in the list go AFTER maxing the FoC.

I'd argue that the versatility of the fist is worth the points. It gives you options.

A fist gives you a way to
1) hurt monstrous creatures
2) Break open weak armor
3) shake heavy armor
4) threatening multiwound toughness 4 units (nob bikers, etc)
5) Not auto lose to dreads in close combat
6) beat up similiar sized but lesser armed units

a powerweapon can help you out with #6 and arguably #1...

If you are building an all comers list, you'll want the most options for your points... I'd go with the fist.

No PFs are not a one trick pony, they boost the squads overall effectiveness and killing potential in CC. ALL CC. I am not saying you should have them in evey squad, however sprinkling them in here and there can be benificial. and I believe I saw in another thread (the bolter thread wheer this came up) That only an idiot would charge a Tac squad that had a PF with an IC, because it would get that IC killed. But that PF just kept that Tac squad out of CC with an IC didn't it.

frgsinwntr wrote:I'd argue that the versatility of the fist is worth the points. It gives you options.

A fist gives you a way to
1) hurt monstrous creatures
2) Break open weak armor
3) shake heavy armor
4) threatening multiwound toughness 4 units (nob bikers, etc)
5) Not auto lose to dreads in close combat
6) beat up similiar sized but lesser armed units

a powerweapon can help you out with #6 and arguably #1...

If you are building an all comers list, you'll want the most options for your points... I'd go with the fist.

1) not even 1w on t6 or less
2) krak's don't work for this?
3) that's really stretching it
4) killing 1 nob biker isn't going to help you out to much there. The squad is dead. And now cost 25pts more. Just how many t4 multi-wound units are there that are not ic's?
5) you almost want to lose cc to dreads
6) wouldn't you win anyways?

If you want the most from an all comers list, use the points to make an all-comers list.

Uhhm, so how many characters charge in by themselves anyway?

Archons rock the shadowfield and a crap ton of attacks.
Meph...
Warbosses and Primes? T5 say hi...

What more would charge a 10 man squad by himself?

imweasel wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

imweasel wrote:Dozer blades for transports?

Really???

You will be hard pressed to convince people that dozer blades are better investments than power fists.

Falls under the anything category.

Absolutes are very hard to defend while debating topics. Careful there, good sir

Anubis_513 wrote:Give me an example of a better way to spend those 25 pts.

How many 25 points PF are we replacing? 1? 2? 3? Or many?

If it is just one, melta bombs for all sarges. HK missiles for 2 things. Camo cloaks for some scouts. Combi weapons. If it is multiple fists, then you start getting into the entire unit territory. 2 fists is MM attack bike, a rhino, or a large number number of more useful upgrades. 3 fists is the same cost as a 5 man scout unit, 5 points more than a MM/HF speeder, nearly as much as a dakka pred, or the same cost as a las/plas razorback. Many PFs, gets into the where is the rest of you models territory.

Upgrade bloat can be a problem (too many expensive could be useful upgrades), and PF are one of the worse offenders of it.

If you want to have thematic list, or just can't spend 25-50 points on something else, sure a fist or two can be cool. Good? Not especially, due to opportunity cost.

notabot187 wrote:

Anubis_513 wrote:Give me an example of a better way to spend those 25 pts.

How many 25 points PF are we replacing? 1? 2? 3? Or many?

If it is just one, melta bombs for all sarges. HK missiles for 2 things. Camo cloaks for some scouts. Combi weapons. If it is multiple fists, then you start getting into the entire unit territory. 2 fists is MM attack bike, a rhino, or a large number number of more useful upgrades. 3 fists is the same cost as a 5 man scout unit, 5 points more than a MM/HF speeder, nearly as much as a dakka pred, or the same cost as a las/plas razorback. Many PFs, gets into the where is the rest of you models territory.

Upgrade bloat can be a problem (too many expensive could be useful upgrades), and PF are one of the worse offenders of it.

If you want to have thematic list, or just can't spend 25-50 points on something else, sure a fist or two can be cool. Good? Not especially, due to opportunity cost.

Hmm...

He covered 'anything' better than I did.

Anubis_513 wrote:No PFs are not a one trick pony, they boost the squads overall effectiveness and killing potential in CC. ALL CC. I am not saying you should have them in evey squad, however sprinkling them in here and there can be benificial. and I believe I saw in another thread (the bolter thread wheer this came up) That only an idiot would charge a Tac squad that had a PF with an IC, because it would get that IC killed. But that PF just kept that Tac squad out of CC with an IC didn't it.

a very valid point. simply by having the Fist, you can change how your opponent plays.

Anubis_513 wrote:No PFs are not a one trick pony, they boost the squads overall effectiveness and killing potential in CC. ALL CC. I am not saying you should have them in evey squad, however sprinkling them in here and there can be benificial. and I believe I saw in another thread (the bolter thread wheer this came up) That only an idiot would charge a Tac squad that had a PF with an IC, because it would get that IC killed. But that PF just kept that Tac squad out of CC with an IC didn't it.

I depend on the IC in question. Many ICs have great invuls or eternal warrior, or are cheap enough to have a good chance of taking out an expensive and scoring unit as a sacrifice move.

I don't think that people are disagreeing that the fists boost the tac squad CC ability, but by how much vs cost is what is being debated. A unit that sucks in CC just sucks slightly less with a PF sarge. Not enough to be good in CC, and not enough to make that unit enough better to effect its primary role.

Like I said, there is few IC's that charge out on their own to begin with....

If they are with a squad, and with a little movement shenanigans, you can shut out the fist from b2b with the IC.

EDIT: Dam, I'm a slow writer.

Dozer blades?

H/K?

Really?

I stopped bothering with Dozer blades back in 3rd That was after over 100 games and using it once (as in I was called to re-roll 1 difficult terrain test with one rhino after over 100 games with several vehicles/game). I found I could do much better putting those dozer blade points into... well, into power weapons/fists on my sgts.

You are also advocating taking 1 S8 shot/game instead of 2 S8 attacks/assault phase(2 assault phases/game turn). You get 4x the use out of a powerfist if you only spend 2 assault phases using it(and are charged) for only 1.5X more points. Sure, 2 Powerfists costs the same as 5 H/Ks, but then you have to add in the cost of the vehicles taking them. So lets say you put them on the cheapest vehicles available: the Rhino, you need 5 squads to unlock those 5 rhinos so now you are paying 675 points for 5 h/k missiles vs 230 for a minimum of 2 power fists(2 base tac squads w/PF) and those 2 p-fists will get 3 more attacks in just 1 game turn.

As far as the earlier comments go: 2 10% chances/assault phase to damage a wraithlord for 25 points is a lot better than losing the unit to the wraithlord with 0% chance to damage.

My power fists have often killed SC ICs that did not have EW; and those that do have EW are usually wounded about 41.666% of the time(as in per assault phase, assuming a 4++, and/or T<5/7) from it, which isn't bad

Most armies have prodigious amounts of anti-tank and several CC units planning to not see CC with your tac squads is tantamount to planning on losing your tac squads wholesale(and not winning objective games). you should always assume you squads will be left ride-less at some point and quite possibly in assault.

As to the "Melta bombs are better" argument; what math are you playing with? P-fist and meltabombs are both S8, p-fist gets 2 attacks(3 on the charge), melta bombs get 1. Against Walkers you have a 50% chances to hit with each swing with the P-fist, but you only have a 16.666% chance to place the melta bomb, ever. Sure the meltabomb has a significantly higher chance to damage once you hit, but if you cannot hit, you cannot damage(this was a problem I had playing Khador in Warmachine, if i hit i wrecked things, but I could hardly hit without boosting).

Kommissar Kel wrote:Dozer blades?

H/K?

Really?

I stopped bothering with Dozer blades back in 3rd That was after over 100 games and using it once (as in I was called to re-roll 1 difficult terrain test with one rhino after over 100 games with several vehicles/game). I found I could do much better putting those dozer blade points into... well, into power weapons/fists on my sgts.

You are also advocating taking 1 S8 shot/game instead of 2 S8 attacks/assault phase(2 assault phases/game turn). You get 4x the use out of a powerfist if you only spend 2 assault phases using it(and are charged) for only 1.5X more points. Sure, 2 Powerfists costs the same as 5 H/Ks, but then you have to add in the cost of the vehicles taking them. So lets say you put them on the cheapest vehicles available: the Rhino, you need 5 squads to unlock those 5 rhinos so now you are paying 675 points for 5 h/k missiles vs 230 for a minimum of 2 power fists(2 base tac squads w/PF) and those 2 p-fists will get 3 more attacks in just 1 game turn.

As far as the earlier comments go: 2 10% chances/assault phase to damage a wraithlord for 25 points is a lot better than losing the unit to the wraithlord with 0% chance to damage.

My power fists have often killed SC ICs that did not have EW; and those that do have EW are usually wounded about 41.666% of the time(as in per assault phase, assuming a 4++, and/or T<5/7) from it, which isn't bad

Most armies have prodigious amounts of anti-tank and several CC units planning to not see CC with your tac squads is tantamount to planning on losing your tac squads wholesale(and not winning objective games). you should always assume you squads will be left ride-less at some point and quite possibly in assault.

As to the "Melta bombs are better" argument; what math are you playing with? P-fist and meltabombs are both S8, p-fist gets 2 attacks(3 on the charge), melta bombs get 1. Against Walkers you have a 50% chances to hit with each swing with the P-fist, but you only have a 16.666% chance to place the melta bomb, ever. Sure the meltabomb has a significantly higher chance to damage once you hit, but if you cannot hit, you cannot damage(this was a problem I had playing Khador in Warmachine, if i hit i wrecked things, but I could hardly hit without boosting).

+1 to this. Its very well said.

I'd also add in that the most common monstrous creatures are toughness 5-6 and not toughness 8... which means your fist that hits can cause a wound on a 2+ most times in which case melta bombs do NOTHING vs a toughness characteristic

Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

Dozer blades can sometimes be useful (depends on how much area terrain and ruins your areas uses), though personally I think it is a bad example.

So let me ask this, at what points cost would you consider taking power fists for a Tac squad?

notabot187 wrote:Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

Dozer blades can sometimes be useful (depends on how much area terrain and ruins your areas uses), though personally I think it is a bad example.

Agreed that sometimes combimeltas are worth it. BUT not when a choice that stays all game is available. I'd much rather have a melta for 5 than a combimelta for even the same price

This analogy goes for a fist as well. I'd rather have something that doesn't go away. it makes the tac squad useful all game

I'm of the belief that the main job of tacs is to provide cheap scoring units (as missle/flamer) or scoring anti-tank units (Combi-melta, melta, multi-melta). You take enough to take/hold objectives, and let the good stuff in the codex (which is damn near everything else) do the heavy lifitng.
The problem isn't just the utility of fists on tactical squads, however. It's the fact that there are plenty of better codices to build 10 man powerfist units out of. Why would you take a powerfist on a tactical squad when you could take grey hunters? Or assault marines?

Tac squads are not as bad in CC as most would think. I would not go looking to get them into CC, and if they are charged by a dedicated CC unit they are unlikely to survive, but in my experience they can hold their own fairly well. No, they are not good at it, but they are far from horrible.

Anubis_513 wrote:So let me ask this, at what points cost would you consider taking power fists for a Tac squad?

15, and PW at 5 (maybe 10). You already are paying 10 extra points for a sarge (whether you like it or not, 5 guys should cost 80, not 90) so a 10 point reduction in price seems reasonable. The number of attacks the fist an PW get aren't all that high, so 41 total model cost (16 for being a marine, 10 for sarge tax, 15 for weapon) for a fist is completely reasonable. (that is what orks pay for a 2 wound guy with FC and more attacks after all)

The problem is that tac squads are seldom useful in combat. The fist adds a few more on the "favourable" list, worth 25p? Maybe...

When would I take fists?
Hmm...I don't know to be honest, I'd much rather add firepower or assault units. I DON'T want to spend points trying, and failing to, turn a (rather decent) shooting unit into a psedo-CC unit.

The problem is more inherent in the tacs themselves. The fist is fair, 25p for 2 s8 attacks is steep, but can be worth it. The bad thing is that his "support", the guys that clean up the rabble, has a single attack.

EDIT: And the best cost for a fist? 10-15 with tacs, 20+ for things that can actually kill in combat without it.

frgsinwntr wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Melta bombs cost 1/5 as much as a fist. They are better since they don't cost so much for such a bad return.

HK missiles can be used first turn, and can demech the opponent if used with other long range fire power. Sometimes single use ranged weapons are worth it, just like combi meltas are worth it. H/K missiles go on things you are taking anyways, so you really shouldn't add the cost of the vehicle it is on.

Dozer blades can sometimes be useful (depends on how much area terrain and ruins your areas uses), though personally I think it is a bad example.

Agreed that sometimes combimeltas are worth it. BUT not when a choice that stays all game is available. I'd much rather have a melta for 5 than a combimelta for even the same priceThis analogy goes for a fist as well. I'd rather have something that doesn't go away. it makes the tac squad useful all game

If you arent taking a melta gun to go along with your sarges combi melta then you are doing something wrong...

As have been stated before, 3 fists will almost buy you a Dakka Pred. I know what I prefer.