Why no love for the lightning claw?

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**Trickstick**

So I have been seeing a lot of homogenous thunderhammer and storm shield squads listed of late. Why does no one like the lightning claw for BT/DA anymore? Having been on the recieving end of Belial for years I have come to hate these things but most are passing them over for the new toys. One or two in a five man squad can really up the damage you can deal. I believe that templars can even get furious charge, which is awesome with the claws but not great with the hammers.

Is it because people just want everyone to have awesome invulnerables? Dropping a couple of shields doesn't hurt you loads as you can still use wound allocation to put the worst wounds on them anyway. I just see it as actually helping out my guardsmen in melee to take only hammers, as I can strike before you and maybe kill one or two terminators before they even strike.

**Mukkin'About**

Most people just like the invulnerable saves, and the ability to ID. That's pretty much it.
Plus you can make some pretty cool looking storm shields.
lightning claws are hard pressed to look awesome like that!

**Trickstick**

Mukkin'About wrote:lightning claws are hard pressed to look awesome like that!

That is all.

**GamzaTheChaos**

It honestly seems people get sucked into playing what they know works rather then trying something different. or trying to make something different work.

I am guessing lazy =P

and yes that model is badass!

**IntX**

Trickstick, that is one awesome looking model... I don't care for Space Marines (playing Necrons and Tau) but that picture gives me pause.

**MasticatorDeelux**

I'm a fan of the LC love...EC's vows + LC rules means I'm rerolling everything in CC. Drop pod them in, LRC shuttle...either way, those bad boys are making it to combat.

**Trickstick**

Yes it is. It's the new forgeworld special character, Tyberos the Red Wake. He has lightning claws/chain fists and can use any mix of them with his attacks. He also has some fun rules like army wide furious charge; any unit that wins a combat gets rage though.

**chaosheade**

It's probably best to use a mix of the two. A few shields for the Inv save and a few claws to take things down at normal initiative.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I use almost exclusively Lightning Claws, with only one SS/TH for tankbusting.

**Magister187**

IMO Lightning Claws are only worth the loss of the invulnerable save if they give you their own "kind" of defense, ie. striking at initiative 5 and taking down some of your opponents before they can fight back. Since this is only possibly with Furious Charge, I like them only on BA termies, Shrike squad termies, or Black Templar Termies.
For other squads of assault terminators, you end up at even initiative, meaning they still get all of their attacks off, whether they happen at the same time or before makes less difference imo since you are giving up the ability to ignore them anyway.
Besides, the simple fact that wounding anything on 2+ is better then wounding most stuff on 4+ but re-rolling. Again, Furious Charge and the 5 str makes a huge difference. Also, you get the added bonus of being able to deal with vehicles.

**Dark Apostle 666**

I've loved lightning claws since the 4th ed. space marines codex just 'cos of captain shrike(?).
Now there's a cool dude.
Then again, Lysander does make thunder hammers look good...
I usually go for a mix on the battlefield.

**oadie**

It's rather odd, to my mind. I've seen dozens of "LC or TH/SS?" threads in the tactics forum be dominated by the 3:2 ratio (TH:LC), but I never seem to see the LC models, when it comes down to it. Even looking at more recent incarnations of those threads, it seems favor is swinging a bit closer to the all hammer camp. I would still opt for a split, but I don't have the models yet, so I'm not doing much to rep the claws...

**Lycaeus Wrex**

I mix them in my Terminator Assault squad. 2 x LCs, 3 x TH/SS. I find this gives a nice balance between survivability and ID-ness, and lots of attacks that get a re-roll.

Plus LCs look sweeeeeeeeet.

L. Wrex

**Dashofpepper**

Both my Orks and Dark Eldar appreciate the swing towards TH/SS. =D

Less attacks at me, I generally get to go first, and even my orks get to swing before dying....and since it is TH instead of LC, there are less of my models dying.

**Melissia**

I find hammers to be more interesting weapons than claws.

**SoloFalcon1138**

the Thunder hammer/storm shield sam lists are due to the recent FAQ upgrade for the Dark Angels and Black Templars. 3++ invulnerable saves make their terminators rediculously awesome.

That being said, I love lightning claws. I will always use them, especially with a chaplain, re-rolls galore on assault!

**A-P**

Thunder hammers can damage Big Jobs(TM) such as Monstrous Creatures and vehicles more reliably than Lightning Claws. Sure you get to strike on normal initiative with claws but if you need 6´s to wound that giant bug, you are pretty much fertilizer anyway.

**chaosheade**

A-P wrote: Thunder hammers can damage Big Jobs(TM) such as Monstrous Creatures and vehicles more reliably than Lightning Claws. Sure you get to strike on normal initiative with claws but if you need 6´s to wound that giant bug, you are pretty much fertilizer anyway.

This is why you take some of both. Striking at initiative and rerolls let you kill some stuff before they hit back and hammer + shield let you take on tougher and stronger targets.

**Ailaros**

It's the storm shield that gets people to not take claws. I'm kind of surprised I've never seen a storm shield+single lightning claw terminator before.

Of course, this is just talking about light side marines. As CSM can't take storm shields, there's no point in taking anything but lightning claws.

230 points gives you 4 khorne champion lightning claw terminators, which put down 24 lightning claw attacks on the charge. That will tear through basically any infantry unit like kleenex in a snot party.

**Anpu42**

Lighting Claws are great for Low "I" Armys, the problem is most of the Low "i" armies have lowsy saves.
If you are figting Eldar you may get more Attacks with LCs, but the fact you are going last is why a lot take the TH/SS.

**Melissia**

Ailaros wrote:It's the storm shield that gets people to not take claws. I'm kind of surprised I've never seen a storm shield+single lightning claw terminator before.

Because most of the time you can't?

At least not with Vanilla marines.

**Lycaeus Wrex**

Ailaros wrote:It's the storm shield that gets people to not take claws. I'm kind of surprised I've never seen a storm shield+single lightning claw terminator before.

Because that's pretty much taking the worst of both worlds. You don't get the extra attack for the claws as you've got a storm shield, and you don't wound MCs on 2s because you've got LCs. I'm not sure if you even get the re-rolls to wound unless you take a pair, if thats the case then there's really no point to the loadout whatsoever. Granted it *does* have its niche, but I don't think niche units are what SM are about.

L. Wrex

**MechaEmperor7000**

Only Space Wolves can have Terminators with SS and LC. But at 53 points a pop, they're *kinda* expensive (especially compared to the 38 point a pop SW terminators with Storm Bolter and LC).

Khorne Termies with Lightning Claws (without the Champion upgrade) are pretty damn scary. However I found out the hard way that you have to have some sort of PF in that squad, or against walkers you're screwed. TH doesnt really suffer from that.

EDIT: Rerolling to wound is the only effect of lightning claws. Otherwise they're just power weapons.

**Ailaros**

Melissia wrote:
Ailaros wrote:It's the storm shield that gets people to not take claws. I'm kind of surprised I've never seen a storm shield+single lightning claw terminator before.
Because most of the time you can't?

At least not with Vanilla marines.

Oh, well that's that, then.

I suppose it's also because, as mentioned, the thunder hammer sacrifices some of its anti-infantry power to become also good against MCs, vehicles, and characters.

That and there's basically no way to do LCs competitively without a land raider.

**A-P**

chaosheade wrote:This is why you take some of both. Striking at initiative and rerolls let you kill some stuff before they hit back and hammer + shield let you take on tougher and stronger targets.

Depending on the enemy. A general 3:2 ratio is my SOP if I do not know what I am going to be facing. But against Bugs and Daemons TH/SS is the choice of the day. The amount of units with T6+ or Initiative 5+ swing the vote in favor the hammer/shield combination.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Thunder hammers sacrifice one attack per terminator for their +1 strength. They're not good with hordes who number in the 30's, but against moderately sized units, that's still a considerable number of attacks coming down on them. Holding a unit in combat for 2 turns is generally considered better than outright destroying a unit, as you can avoid being shot at by the enemy during their turn.

**Noir**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Thunder hammers sacrifice one attack per terminator for their +1 strength. They're not good with hordes who number in the 30's, but against moderately sized units, that's still a considerable number of attacks coming down on them. Holding a unit in combat for 2 turns is generally considered better than outright destroying a unit, as you can avoid being shot at by the enemy during their turn.

Wait what, reread the Thunder Hammer rules. Its STx2.

**MechaEmperor7000**

lol oops said the wrong thing XD. I was thinking of the Frost Axe's effect. But yeah, that just makes my point go farther. a minor decrease in attack for +4 strength on Termies.

**Ailaros**

To be fair, while -1A may seem minor, trading in a hammer for a pair of claws gives you 50% more attacks once things get stuck in.

**Lycaeus Wrex**

And the claws give you re-rolls to wound, which really helps offset the fact that you swing at base strength. Having an entire unit decked out with LCs is probably a bit daft, you might be better off taking shooty Terminators at that point, but mixing one or two LCs into your 5-man squads gives you a nice overall balance of survivability and damage output.

L. Wrex