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Ok guys I have been playing my Tau for a while and have seen this tactic used by people on line. My question is... Does the squad of Crisis Suits firing over the heads of the Kroot grant the Space Marines a cover save? (See photo's below)

One line of thought says Yes because of intervening models. (RB Page 21 right column)

The other says No because of line of sight. If you check line of site directly over the Crisis Suits heads they can clearly see the space marines without obstruction. (Page 21 left column last paragraph)

Space Marine Point of View


Tau Point of View

I would say they get the Save. You are still an infantry unit firing through an infantry unit.

From that perspective it appears the marines get no cover, per the third bullet point on page 22; the Crisis suits have clear LOS OVER the Kroot, rather than between them. If they can see the entire SM model over the top of the intervening unit or terrain, no cover applies.

If the Crisis suits were a bit further back behind the Kroot the LOS would not be so clear, and cover might apply.

No cover. That is the benefit of base-hugging short models. Of course you are even more vulnerable to multi-assaults and templates.

Orks can shoot over grots. You can shoot OVER a unit but yet they shoot through it back at you.

It's the same principle present in shooting over a short wall. If something is in between the firer and the target, but it's not blocking enough of the target to grant a save, then there's no save.

Think of the kroot as a wall of the same height, just imagine it's solid instead of having the gaps where they are.

Or you could just use your jumping ability to move over, then jump back in the asaullt phase.

Tekeino wrote:Or you could just use your jumping ability to move over, then jump back in the asaullt phase.

Win.

Although there is a pertinent point to be made about the cover saves:

somerandomdude wrote:It's the same principle present in shooting over a short wall. If something is in between the firer and the target, but it's not blocking enough of the target to grant a save, then there's no save.

And I think that's it.

misread the post...

The CS and marines get a 4+ save. If the CS were in base contact with a lineir piece of terrain, like a wall or barricade, then the CS would have a 4+ save and the Marines would not.

The other says No because of line of sight. If you check line of site directly over the Crisis Suits heads they can clearly see the space marines without obstruction. (Page 21 left column last paragraph)

The reason why this isn't the case, is because the rules only allow you to shoot over a linier piece of terrain like a fence or wall that you can still see over and not grant the enemy a cover save. Simply, the Kroot aren't going to stay perfectly still to take bullets for the CS... I guess this could be deliberately changed in the special rules of unit, but it's not for the Kroot as far as I know.

You can shoot through your own units if those units in question do not obscure the target you are shooting at. Basically the model's heads need to be high enough to see over what they are shooting through.

Same works with shooting through an enemy unit. If the unit in front your trying to shoot through is obscuring 50% of the unit your shooting at. Then the unit gets a 4+ cover save.
However tanks and units that are taller or higher up can often see through units without them providing cover saves.

I tried to do this with grots and a line of lootas and got my head bitten of.

What exactly where you trying to do?

Tekeino wrote:Or you could just use your jumping ability to move over, then jump back in the asaullt phase.

If ever theres a problem with you doing what your asking, do what Tekeino said. Thats what I was going to sugges, just JSJ and dont sweat the small stuff

MisterMoon wrote:The CS and marines get a 4+ save. If the CS were in base contact with a lineir piece of terrain, like a wall or barricade, then the CS would have a 4+ save and the Marines would not.

The other says No because of line of sight. If you check line of site directly over the Crisis Suits heads they can clearly see the space marines without obstruction. (Page 21 left column last paragraph)

The reason why this isn't the case, is because the rules only allow you to shoot over a linier piece of terrain like a fence or wall that you can still see over and not grant the enemy a cover save. Simply, the Kroot aren't going to stay perfectly still to take bullets for the CS... I guess this could be deliberately changed in the special rules of unit, but it's not for the Kroot as far as I know.

You are mistaken.

I'm not talking about walls or barricades, I am talking about the rules for "Firing through units or area terrain", the third bullet point on page 22, as I cited in my previous post. This is the exact controlling rule, and it specifically states that the cover save does not apply if you're able to trace LOS "over the area terrain or unit rather than through it."

If the firing unit can get a nice, completely clear LOS (head to toe) to the majority of the target models completely OVER a unit which is between them, no cover save applies.

As I said before, the only reason the Crisis suits can manage this is because they're right behind the Kroot. If they were a couple of inches further back their LOS probably would be partly obscured and/or trace between the Kroot models, in which case the cover save would come into effect.

Guys here is my response to this question. Thanks for watching!

Excellent video response. My friends and I while lenient in giving cover saves can get into some minor arguments on what can and can't get cover. This was, in fact, one of the exact setups that lead to needing a 3rd opinion in a game between my Chaos Space Marines and my friend's Tau.

Thank you for the insightful video!

It is pretty simple. Just substitute relevant models.









As long as the LOS from the Orks completely clears the Gretchin mob, ie no part of the Space Marine is obscured, then the Space Marine gets no save from the Ork firing.

Yes, the Ork can claim a cover save from the Gretchin when the Space Marine fires back.


How to determine how tall a given squad is, is a different question all together and should be handled using the Search function. I know Yakface did a "How Do You Play It" - poll at one point.

Good diagrams!

The video was pretty good too, though some of the terminology usage was a bit sloppy. I would have also liked to see the bullet points on p.22 referenced. Some people may try to argue about firer's perspective if you just show them page 21, since it explicitly references being on terrain which gives you an elevated view. But if you combine that with the section on page 22, it's indisputable.

@ Mannahnin Bullet points are a great idea I will be sure to use them next time! Thanks for the critique! I will do better with the terminology next time!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Steelmage99 great diagrams! Thanks!

You're welcome! Thanks for putting the effort into illustrating this concept, as I think it's definitely one that confuses some folks.

I agree with you man, but alot of these "close combat" oriented army players dont like how that goes so they complain because they dont get thier cover save, i have a couple questions reguarding other senarios if you dont mind me tacking it on in here.

I recently put together a citidel ruined building and put a base under it mainly to decorate and make it more sturdy. measuring from the front door to the end of the base is 2.5 inches, if i have models on the third floor over looking the field do they give models they shoot at a coversave? mainly because of the areaterrain rules.

I have also had units standing on the ground and shoot at an enemy unit on the other side of a crater, am i considered shooting through it or over it? because its area terrain "technically." I've found that cover save hungry CC armies LOVE to reference the area terrain rule to try and squeeze every last coversave they can.

If you define the base as part of the ruins, then the answer is: probably.

If you are less than 2" into terrain you DONT give a cover save, but the converse isnt necessarily true. If you are shooting out of area cover you have to be firing between 2 "elements" of cover in order to grant a cover save AND be more than 2" in.

Craters are not area terrain; you see if they are covered at all. If you can see every part of them then no cover save (unless you are more than 2" in, see above)

THE TITAN EATING WEENY DOG SHALL CONSUME YOU ALL!!!!!!

and its a good point o.o i agree with the last part of the video o.o what else is there to say? its logical and makes sence o.o it also follows the rules =D

The Thunder Child wrote:I recently put together a citidel ruined building and put a base under it mainly to decorate and make it more sturdy. measuring from the front door to the end of the base is 2.5 inches, if i have models on the third floor over looking the field do they give models they shoot at a coversave? mainly because of the areaterrain rules.

I'd say no to the cover.
It's your building... house rule it the the base in no way counts as terrain, and it purely to help stabalise the model.
If your oppoents disagree, do not use the terrain piece, then see if they like playing with no cover. Then ask if they want to use the building again, with the rules you intended it to have.

BTW, this topic was covered quite a while ago with a 'how do you play' poll and the results are pretty telling:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219003.page


So in this thread, the answer would be 'no' the Marines do not get a cover save from the Crisis Suit's firing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you define the base as part of the ruins, then the answer is: probably.

No, I'm pretty sure it's "yes".

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you are less than 2" into terrain you DONT give a cover save, but the converse isnt necessarily true. If you are shooting out of area cover you have to be firing between 2 "elements" of cover in order to grant a cover save AND be more than 2" in.

Nos, I believe you're mistaken there. When shooting out of area terrain with a unit inside it, you just measure the distance. When shooting ACROSS it from one side to another when neither the firing unit or the target unit is actually IN the terrain, is when you use the "goalposts" rule, checking whether the target is seen between two raised elements of the area terrain feature.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Craters are not area terrain; you see if they are covered at all. If you can see every part of them then no cover save (unless you are more than 2" in, see above)

I usally see craters treated as Area Terrain. That said, they don't have raised elements one could trace LOS between, so they only give cover if the unit is in them or if they physically obscure at least half the the models in the target unit from the perspecitve of the firers, per true LOS.

No, Nos is correct.

There is no rule that says you grant a cover save when shooting out of area terrain, even if you are 3" from the edge.

The rules say if you are 2" or less, you never grant a cover save from that terrain.... but that is *not* the same as saying you will if more than 2"

The rules for area terrain say the target gets a save if they are in the terrain, or if the firer is shooting between two elements.

So... If the firer is in the terrain, and shooting out...
If shooting between 2 elements and within 2".... No Cover save
If shooting between 2 elements and farther than 2"... Yes Cover save
If not shooting between 2 elements and within 2"... No Cover save
If not shooting between 2 elements and farther than 2"... No cover save.






It needs to be determined before hand if the crater is area terrain or not.

Mann - as above, when shooting at a unit not in area terrain from area terrain, if you are more than 2" in then you dont give a cover save unless you are between the "posts"

I don't think most people play those precise rules for area terrain.

Not true in my experience....most people seemt o be aware of the rules in this case.

In general there is a lot of confusion regarding the cover rules in 5th edition. Much of this confusion stems from players who are used to how cover was handled in previous editions and cannot seem to adjust. I hear the same incorrect arguments over and over at tournaments and league games as to why my opponents models should receive a cover save against my shooting simply because my models are receiving a cover save against theirs.

In previous editions cover was granted simply by an intervening unit existing between a firer and a target. It did not matter if the firer was a Wraithlord and the target was a Tyranid Warrior, and the intervening models were Ripper Swarms. Simply by being there, the Rippers gave the Tyranid Warrior a cover save.

This has changed drastically in 5th edition to take into account actual physical model dimensions, and people who cannot think spatially or three dimensionally have difficulty processing this change. The Rippers are no taller than the Tyranid Warrior's hooves, and the Wraithlord can clearly see the entire Tyranid Warrior, so why would the rippers offer any cover at all?

Another common misconception is that a unit gets cover from an opponent if that opponent is firing between the elements of area terrain. This is only partially correct. The unit receives cover only if the terrain obscures them from view in some way. There is a ruin base that has two buildings on it, and a clear space in the middle, if I can get a clear view between the buildings to the majority of a unit on the other side, they are denied a cover save. There is even a passage on page 21 of the rulebook clearly stating that firers may shoot over intervening terrain if they are tall enough or high up on some terrain piece so that their line of sight is completely clear, yet noone ever seems to remember it when I point it out. They just assume that because something is in between my models and theirs, they get a save.

The cover rules, unlike certain other areas of the rulebook, are relatively clearly written, and it's preconceptions of how cover SHOULD work (usually transferred from old editions) that lead to these kinds of arguments.

In the photos and the video, the Space Marines clearly have no cover save from the Crisis suits, and the Crisis Suits have a cover save from the Space Marines. This is outlined clearly in the rules, and I cannot see how any valid argument to the contrary could be made. The diagrams in Steelmage99's post outline the situation very clearly, and show how one can have a clear view of an opponent while using intervening models or terrain to obstruct that opponents view to you. This is perfectly logical, and completely legal within the rules, yet it's frustrating to attempt to explain this to an opponent in a tournament or a league game, and I usually end up getting yelled at as a rules lawyer.

Read the book before you argue rules. Sometimes it actually helps!