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Yesterday I had a discussion at my FLGS about the Imperium, and when it came to the subject about morality, he said that Chaos could be the good guys because the Imperium were Catholic Space Nazis. I mentioned the part that they frequently indulge in human sacrifices and he still insisted. So what do you guys think?

Two wrongs don't make a right, as Grandma Fauntleroy always used to say. Whilst it could be argued that Chaos' goal of a (more or less) 'united' galaxy could be considered noble, the way they attempt to acheive it makes them evil. To paraphrase Assassin's Creed: "I take no issues with their goals, they are the same as mine; it is how they go about them that is why they must be fought."

Nooo, not by a long way. Sacrifices, slavery, indiscriminate killing...

Just because they're killing people who support "Catholic Space Nazis" doesn't mean they're good at all.

As Fauntleroy said, two wrongs don't make a right. 3 lefts do, however.

I also think that 'Good' and, to some degree, 'evil' are terms that need more clarification-does stopping an evil act make you good, even if you have fouler motives?

And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some

I believe chaos are selfish and in the world for themselves.They aim for "destroy everything because I can and might get something out of it". Space marines are like future nazis though. One emperor is the only religion and all others must be destroyed (meaning aliens and non believers known as heretics). In 40k no one is pure and good or completely evil (Except maybe the chaos gods). Its like calling tau good or evil. they are a bit of both. They are like mafia in the sense that they want to be the dominant force and when a family gets in their way they either kill them or beat them into joining for the greater good.

The Chaos Gods are selfish to be sure and those dedicated to them but I believe there are certain nuggets of 'right' amongst the renegades, for example, the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords, both legions seem to hold to the original ideal of bringing down a father who betrayed them.

So, this guy considers oppression (only in place because without such stringent policies the human race will collapse and be destroyed) more 'evil' than eternal destruction and devouring peoples souls for the lulz? More evil than intentionally spreading disease, lies, violence, harmful mutation, and death? Thats some funny morality.

Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some

Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.

wookiedestroyer wrote:
Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.

1. Read anything about Slannesh.

2. Power Armor is still armor, they can take it off whenever they feel like it.

wookiedestroyer wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some

Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.

Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.

Platuan4th wrote:

wookiedestroyer wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And they think that eternal suffering, madness, betrayal, raping, slaughtering, destroying or simply killing is a characteristic of a good guy?
What drug do they use? I must try some

Ive never read about chaos raping anyone and besides when have space marines (even chaos) ever been able to take off power armour? Please correct me if im wrong but I dont think they can take it off.

Power armor can be removed and no fluff has ever implied differently. CHAOS Armor, however, can not.

Who said anything about taking it off before hand?
exactly.

Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:So, this guy considers oppression (only in place because without such stringent policies the human race will collapse and be destroyed) more 'evil' than eternal destruction and devouring peoples souls for the lulz? More evil than intentionally spreading disease, lies, violence, harmful mutation, and death? Thats some funny morality.

I'd have to say in the grand scheme of things the Imperium Causes a great deal more suffering to its subjects than the forces of chaos. the Fallen legions and renegades are relegated to two small areas of the galaxy, the Eye of terror and the maelstrom. whereas the Imperium of Man stretches from one side of the galaxy to the other. In fact outside of Cadia and other worlds in proximity to the bastions of chaos the majority of the Imperial populace has no idea the traitor legions even exist. Most Imperial citizens never see a space marine in their entire life span, and even lesser still have the misfortune to encounter a chaos marine.

In fact in most stories where common citizenry has contact with renegade astartes, they are often mistaken for loyalists, (lords of the night for example) the fact that loyal astartes are as terrifying to the normal man as chaos astartes, should tell you something as to the reputation on both sides.

as far as sacrifice goes, yes humans are sacrificed to the gods of chaos, but are not humans also sacrificed to the God of the Imperium, hundreds a day if I recall correctly. not only that but those who do not worship said god are burned alive or killed in some other horrific fashion to serve as an example and a warning to other who may not share the views of the ecclesiarchy.

as far as I can tell one is just as bad as the other. Granted the Gods of Chaos devour your soul, whereas the Emperor only devours the souls of psykers, but if you're normal then why worry? I mean its not like you're jewish....I mean a psyker.

We hear talk about "Catholic Space Nazis", but we also forget that the Imperium is a distant presence to the average citizen. Pay lip service to the Emperor and don't do anything stupid (i.e. join a local Chaos cult), and by and large the Imperium leaves you alone. Sure, there's a lot that's bad about it. But most people aren't impacted all that much by its presence. It's their planetary governments that are the primary cause of how repressed the local citizens are.

Chaos isn't that nice...

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:So, this guy considers oppression (only in place because without such stringent policies the human race will collapse and be destroyed) more 'evil' than eternal destruction and devouring peoples souls for the lulz? More evil than intentionally spreading disease, lies, violence, harmful mutation, and death? Thats some funny morality.

I'd have to say in the grand scheme of things the Imperium Causes a great deal more suffering to its subjects than the forces of chaos. the Fallen legions and renegades are relegated to two small areas of the galaxy, the Eye of terror and the maelstrom. whereas the Imperium of Man stretches from one side of the galaxy to the other. In fact outside of Cadia and other worlds in proximity to the bastions of chaos the majority of the Imperial populace has no idea the traitor legions even exist. Most Imperial citizens never see a space marine in their entire life span, and even lesser still have the misfortune to encounter a chaos marine.

In fact in most stories where common citizenry has contact with renegade astartes, they are often mistaken for loyalists, (lords of the night for example) the fact that loyal astartes are as terrifying to the normal man as chaos astartes, should tell you something as to the reputation on both sides.

as far as sacrifice goes, yes humans are sacrificed to the gods of chaos, but are not humans also sacrificed to the God of the Imperium, hundreds a day if I recall correctly. not only that but those who do not worship said god are burned alive or killed in some other horrific fashion to serve as an example and a warning to other who may not share the views of the ecclesiarchy.

as far as I can tell one is just as bad as the other. Granted the Gods of Chaos devour your soul, whereas the Emperor only devours the souls of psykers, but if you're normal then why worry? I mean its not like you're jewish....I mean a psyker.

...and the only reason the chaos marines don't cause more suffering to the people of the Imperium is because they are kept at bay by Imperial armies. You notice how when they invade they don't even give the Imperial 'join us or die' option? They will kill, rape, enslave, or otherwise cause a great deal more suffering to anyone they come across.

Take a larger view of these sacrifices. Those sacrificed to the chaos gods number in the millions; basically whoever comes across the followers of chaos, and their souls are eternally tortured or devoured. Those sacrificed to the Emperor are joined with his benevolent spirit for eternity; and without their sacrifice alot more people are going to die. Different kinds of sacrifice going on.

And obviously from our point of view the tyrannical Ecclesiarchy is a bad thing, but riddle me this: how many wars are fought today, human vs. human, because of religious disputes? If multiple religions were allowed, it would be a matter of hours before the Imperium tore itself apart; I think a little repression is worth the safety of the human race, both bodily and their souls.

The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.

There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.

FourCartridge wrote: the Imperium were Catholic Space Nazis.

I think that you, sir, just made my day.

Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.

There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.

Well one makes you grow horns out of your head. There's that difference.

Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.

There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.

I wish I had such a gift for brevity lol, thank you Killkrazy, that about sums it up.

Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.

There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.

It may be true for a good part of the IoM, but there are some lights in the darkness. Some of the SM homeworlds, for example, are havens of peace and justice in this uncaring and brutal galaxy.

I really doubt we can say the same about Merdengrad or Barbarus in the Eye...

Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.

There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.

Except the Imperium is definately motivate to save Humanity. Not humans, they have plenty of those. They only have one Humanity though.

Chaos doesn't give a rip about anything.

Which just goes to show how stupid Chaos powers are. They inseparably tied themselves to the fate of Humanity during the Heresy (because they thought they were going to win), but now if Humanity dies out, so do they. This doesn't stop them from trying to incessantly wipe it out though.

Chaos stands out as the clear "bad Guy" until you look in depth. There are many very evil imperials and a lot of chaos worshipers who aren't that bad (each chaos god has good sides and is only bad when you loose control). A lot of the worlds in the eye of terror have stable human populations who could arguable be considered better of as there is much a higher chance of freedom.

Both rely on humanities worst qualities. Chaos preys on peoples desires and the imperium uses humanities fear of the unknown to rule.

While one is lead by hungry gods, the imperium is run by greedy humans.

The funny side is that the imperium fights chaos to "save humanity" but the sacrifices they make are as bad as what chaos does. While chaos is dangerous it also gives freedom, something the imperium will never give you.

4M2A wrote: A lot of the worlds in the eye of terror have stable human populations who could arguable be considered better of as there is much a higher chance of freedom.

To have your skin sewn into a fashionable hat.

The Imperium may do brutal things to its people sometimes, but it's motivations are always to save the population as a whole.

Chaos is motivated purely For the Evulz.

Chaos having occasionally noble purposes was retconned out of 40k nearly 20 years ago. It's just pure, undiluted evil now.

Laodamia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle joke at the core of 40K is that Chaos and the IoM are two sides of the same coin.

There is little or nothing to separate them in terms of their brutality, aggression and general crappiness to their own people and everyone else who comes into contact with them.

It may be true for a good part of the IoM, but there are some lights in the darkness. Some of the SM homeworlds, for example, are havens of peace and justice in this uncaring and brutal galaxy.

I really doubt we can say the same about Merdengrad or Barbarus in the Eye...

No, but we can point to the fact that the Gods actively reward those who follow them. Sure, horns and stuff might seem kinda crappy on the face of it, but in a fight they're dead useful. The major gifts can even enhance a person's attractiveness or even, as Daemonhood proves, make them immortal.
Of course, you have to do horrible, grotesque things to get that far, but equally the Imperium sacrifices millions of lives every day just to survive. To be honest, neither of them are all that good when you look at it. I kinda like this whole "coin" theory.

There are no "good guys" in the 40k universe. That's one of the main things that makes it so grimdark.

Darth Bob wrote:There are no "good guys" in the 40k universe. That's one of the main things that makes it so grimdark.

exactly, everybody just wants a slice of the pie, and anyone who gets in the way of that slice, is the enemy.

Ummm... are you kidding?

Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.

If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...

*axe to your head*

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

I think the use of Catholic is unfair and offensive. If I said 'Tau are Muslim Space Communists' there'd be hell to pay...

Sure there's ecclesiastical elements but the RCC generally is against wholescale slaughter.

Grakmar wrote:Ummm... are you kidding?

Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.

If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...

*axe to your head*

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

What's this, a slightly divergent opinion?
EXECUTE THIS MAN FOR HERESY ON FIVE LEVELS!

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Ummm... are you kidding?

Chaos is clearly the bad guys. They have spikes and chains all over their armor. Everyone know that spikes=evil.

If that's not enough to convince you, perhaps we should sit down and...

*axe to your head*

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

What's this, a slightly divergent opinion?
EXECUTE THIS MAN FOR HERESY ON FIVE LEVELS!

Blood Angels and their successors, "Blood for the blood Emperor"