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It seems that nobody here understands the Imperials?
They must constantly control the population because every fool with a little greed is a great potential for planetary independence.
As for killing millions - they do that only when they have no choice. Like the situation where Chaos block entire solar system and what's left of the population retreats to the last Imperial fortress. I would rather like for them to die by my hands then to suffer in the hands of Chaos minions.
Same is for the Chaos corruption and viruses. If the Chaos virus is spread all across population - nothing can be done for them. And Daemon will just go and posses one by one individual. Again - better for them to die by Inquisitorial than Chaos hands.
As for the aliens: name me one alien that do not wish to obliterate us? Tyranids what's to consume us, Orks simply to kill us, Eldar sees us as lesser race, Tau simply want to control us and Necrons wants us dead to. Not much choice for democracy here.
In the end - who are we to judge Imperial ways? Since Mankind embrace the stars in DaoT every alien race we encounter wants to destroy us. Or to simply use us in their twisted purposes. Emperor, Imperial Guard, High Lords and Space Marines are all that stands between us and destruction.
And if you seek the "good guys" in 40k - the closest equivalent to them are the Ultramarines. The way I see them: they saved Imperium from destruction, reorganize legions to bring better stability in the IoM itself, sing a peace treaty with the Tau and work several times with them, have their own empire that makes the rest of the Imperium looks like Nazi state and every time they rushed to protect the civilians - they have never left anyone to die unlike many other chapters.
For me - they are the good guys of 40k.

Grakmar wrote:
Compared to:

See the black armor? The big scary fist and mace? The colorless skin? A lack of hair? The blood dripping from his mace?

This is clearly a bad guy.

The first guy is a loyalist, the second guy is a traitor.

Chaos is evil.

QED

But he doesn't have a twirable mustache, monocle or white cat.

"I do not expect you to talk Mr Emperor, I expect you to die"

And most of the loyalist Space Marines have no hair!!!

How do we tell who is good and bad hmm hmm?!?!

Pilau Rice wrote:
How do we tell who is good and bad hmm hmm?!?

Easy.
Loyalist will protect you, and they are bound by the code of courage and honor.
Traitors will butcher you, and they are bound only to the will of their gods who commands them to slaughter you.
Hard choice.

Grakmar wrote:Ok, I think some people are getting confused. Please observe the following model:

See the wings? The gold armor? The halo? The blond hair?

This is clearly a good guy.

Compared to:

See the black armor? The big scary fist and mace? The colorless skin? A lack of hair? The blood dripping from his mace?

This is clearly a bad guy.

The first guy is a loyalist, the second guy is a traitor.

Chaos is evil.

QED

Observe the following Picture:

CLEARLY a good guy right?


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Look! more GOOD guys!

Brother Heinrich wrote:
Observe the following Picture:

CLEARLY a good guy right?

Well, Rambo is a good guy to. And he is always covered in Russian blood.
And Space Marines are Humanities Angels of Death, what did you expect? Flowers on shoulder-pads?
And they are the good guys, this picture proves it:

^Lawyered^

all KINDS of good coming off this guy
[image]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/S3TSpyC8YSI/AAAAAAAABOE/uKgLNq29nxA/s800/jetbike_lg.jpg[/image]

The good guys.

all KINDS of good coming off this guy



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all I'm getting is a difference in Iconography gents.



LAWYERED



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in fact the guy below has LESS spikes than the loyalist!

The IoM are the good guys, if slightly over extreme in being so. Theres only so far being a good guy will take you beofr eyou end up looking evil, exterminatus for example, deny a planet to the enemy at cost of civilian lives, pretty evil to kill a whole world of people just to stop the enemy taking it, but pretty good to stop the enemy taking it and tourturing everyone and just generally being a bunch of tools.

I dont think either the IoM or chaos are truly good or evil, i think the clostest ones to being truly good is the nids as they dont act upon anything but the need to survive and eat, and the orks cuz orks just do what arks are ment to do and the clostest to being evil are the crons.

gloomygrim wrote:
I dont think either the IoM or chaos are truly good or evil, i think the clostest ones to being truly good is the nids as they dont act upon anything but the need to survive and eat, and the orks cuz orks just do what arks are ment to do and the clostest to being evil are the crons.

I really don't think Blue and Orange Morality is an excuse to stop being nice. Just because the other guy has different morals than you doesn't mean they don't apply to your behavior towards him, and I don't care how much of an Ubersmech you are.

FourCartridge wrote:

gloomygrim wrote:
I dont think either the IoM or chaos are truly good or evil, i think the clostest ones to being truly good is the nids as they dont act upon anything but the need to survive and eat, and the orks cuz orks just do what arks are ment to do and the clostest to being evil are the crons.

I really don't think Blue and Orange Morality is an excuse to stop being nice. Just because the other guy has different morals than you doesn't mean they don't apply to your behavior towards him, and I don't care how much of an Ubersmech you are.

True being an arse over a difference is arsey but an ork was never nice and your morals and what not dont matter your just something to crack round the face and i doubt any nid understands the concept of morality to them everything is food.

To the IoM it only matters that you follow what is said, how they get that done may not be right to the people that dont show enough faith but its right for the masses. and not all the chaos gods are evil, fatty ahem nurgle is aperantly a nice god lol.

Brother Heinrich wrote:
all I'm getting is a difference in Iconography gents.

Difference in iconography? The iconography and aesthetics are the only things that are practically identical. Both may be filthy mutants in antique armor, but the traitor legions are warp maddened psychopaths, while the loyalists are just noble idiots who will throw themselves onto the enemy in pathetically small numbers with all the tactical acumen of a brick rather than just nuke everything from orbit (technically the traitors do this too, but they do it so they can MAIMKILLBURN in person, which they find more fun), unless the entire world is being consumed by tyranids or daemons.


There's really no comparison. The servants of the Imperium act first and foremost to protect humanity from existential threats, such as daemons, xenos, and rogue psykers, and to preserve the functioning of society so that the hundreds of trillions living on hive worlds don't starve to death. The servants of chaos act first and foremost to feed people to daemons, for power or amusement, and to undermine and collapse human society so that those hundreds of trillions starve to death or eat each other, primarily because they find it funny.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
There's really no comparison. The servants of the Imperium act first and foremost to protect humanity from existential threats, such as daemons, xenos, and rogue psykers, and to preserve the functioning of society so that the hundreds of trillions living on hive worlds don't starve to death. The servants of chaos act first and foremost to feed people to daemons, for power or amusement, and to undermine and collapse human society so that those hundreds of trillions starve to death or eat each other, primarily because they find it funny.

Yes, unfortunately for the IoM, Chaos worshipers have a lot of humor...

Ailaros wrote:Meh, morals are human constructs. By extension, who is a "good guy" and who is a "bad guy" is dependent entirely upon the fabrication of the observer.

Both the imperium and chaos forces are working in their self-interest for the benefit of themselves and their constituancy. The only wiggle room here is their methodology, but I hardly see anyone coming out for the better when chaos rips apart human beings to add skulls to a giant pile on one hand, and the imperium unleashing an aerosolized super-virus killing all life on a planet on the other.

Bingo! DING,DING,DING!!! Morals and ethics are a cultural creation. You guys ever heard of "Cultural Relativism"? To us chaos seems evil, but step into their shoes for a bit. From a modern western perspective the IOM is a terrible thing. Granted their intentions are good, but so are terrorists, and so are the acts of psychopaths(in their own mind). So everything is relative. Chaos sees their way as a way of being rewarded for your achievements, devotion and desire, and fighting what they Believe to be wrong. Catholics believe in heaven and sin, Muslims believe in 72 virgins, Chaos has its own beliefs.

If you have read the Ghaunt's Ghosts series chaos has an infrastructure and what we would consider to a lesser extent empires of its own. Hell, the occupational forces on Gereon don't seem like they have it bad at all. The main purpose for occupying Gereon was to use its resources(i.e. soil, food and water, which were used) for its own populations on other planets. So killing and raping for no reason goes out the window with that, they too are trying to survive and prosper. Who is to say their culture and ways are wrong, there are people that say the western world is wrong, so everyone points fingers around the room and nobody is right in the end. That is the purpose I think, you can flip it either way and it still just melts together into this blob called humanity. There is no black and white, just a smear.

Besides who is gonna point out that the crazies are normies and the normies are really the crazies

For the angel vs. chaos picture: you can't really compare on looks. The angel is pretty and clean and triggers in your brain "ooh shiny, good". Whereas the chaos image could be seen as a warrior dedicated to his cause, the greeks wore dark scary looking armor and parraded around with bloody battle trophies, so did knights and indians and huns and incans and americans and..........who is to say his image is evil, angels are evil. Lucifer is supposedly a fallen angel who went against god, so hey to me those pretty wings and blonde hair might just be an image of the devil...seee?

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
How do we tell who is good and bad hmm hmm?!?

Easy.
Loyalist will protect you, and they are bound by the code of courage and honor.
Traitors will butcher you, and they are bound only to the will of their gods who commands them to slaughter you.
Hard choice.

My question was tongue in cheek due to the lack of hair comment by Grakmar.

Brother Coa wrote:

The good guys.

The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang

The Nazis calling the Satanists evil? I agree its cultural relativism, but being deliberately contrary to something is a reflection of the thing being contradicted, not of the thing that takes its place.
(like Satanism would not exist without Christianity for it to contradict, there would be no Chaos worshippers if they didn't have an IoM to lose faith in and seek other gods instead, the existance of chaos worshippers says something about the IoM)
At least Chaos worshippers have no delusions of righteousness, that kind of thing left the moment they got their first tentacle.

AS per the OP's thing about Chaos having human sacrifices... um... what do you call the daily psyker headcount to sustain the zombie toilet?

yeenoghu wrote:AS per the OP's thing about Chaos having human sacrifices... um... what do you call the daily psyker headcount to sustain the zombie toilet?

You will burn for heresy against our god and savior!!!!




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Pilau Rice wrote:
The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang

And I see that she is quite willing to go with him and to be tortured for the rest of her life.

I am sorry, Marines are still the good guys. Just look the Ultramarines - how can they be bad guys with all their bolters and blue armor?

Pilau Rice wrote:

The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang

Women are the root of all this, there'd be no reason to B*tch slap the crap out of that Dark Eldar if there wasn't a woman involved.

Damn, I can't believe some people are still trying to argue Chaos is good. This is nonsense.

I agree that in the Gaunt's Ghost series, we see some examples of organised and functioning chaotic cultures. But it does not mean that the principles upon which these cultures were created are good. Think about Nazi Germany, which had unquestionably the most unfair and evil social policies of human history. As a society, Nazi Germany was working relatively well. It was one of the first countries to fully recover from the Great Crisis of 1930. By the the end of that decade, its industry had become powerful enough to initiate the greatest military effort ever seen at the time. It doesn't mean this society had a "good" basis though.

Some chaos worshipers and cultists could be motivated by good intentions. They might be desperately trying to improve the lives of their families or to protect their world from the Imperium's wrath. But this is definitely not the case for CSM, daemons and the vast majority of the chaotic minions. Because they think they are doing something right and fair doesn't mean their actions are not evil. Would you say a psychopathic killer is good simply because in his tortured mind, he thinks he's doing something right?

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
The Dark Eldar doesn't think the Marine is a good guy, he's punched him in the face and is trying to steal his poontang

And I see that she is quite willing to go with him and to be tortured for the rest of her life.

No.. she's actually shouting 'hey you donkey-cave, you've punched my boyfriend after we've just sat down to start our lovely picnic'

You can actually see a plate in the bottom right had corner

Perhaps she loves that S&M shizzle, I know I do

Laodamia wrote:I agree that in the Gaunt's Ghost series, we see some examples of organised and functioning chaotic cultures. But it does not mean that the principles upon which these cultures were created are good. Think about Nazi Germany, which had unquestionably the most unfair and evil social policies of human history. As a society, Nazi Germany was working relatively well. It was one of the first countries to fully recover from the Great Crisis of 1930. By the the end of that decade, its industry had become powerful enough to initiate the greatest military effort ever seen at the time. It doesn't mean this society had a "good" basis though.

wait a minute, you're going to use Nazi germany as an example and say that the Imperium is benevolent in comparison? they're both equally bad thats the point. The good that could've come from the Imperium Died in the flames of the horus heresy and its original ideals have had 10,000 years to corrode to the point where in some ways they are no better than chaos.

For some reason this thread reminds me of a quote from The Departed

Frank Costello wrote:When I was your age they would say we can become cops, or criminals. Today, what I'm saying to you is this: when you're facing a loaded gun, what's the difference?

Not to belabor the points made, but 40k comes down to protagonists (whichever side you play) and antagonists (whoever is lined up on the other side of the table). The fact that there are arguments over who are the "good guys" just illustrates the lack of any faction with a majority of characteristics we define as good; or, at least, without some glaring characteristics we define as evil.

One thing that I think is never taken into account is that the galaxy is in a state of constant war. If you look at mankind's comparatively brief history on this planet, the relationship between a government and its citizenry changes drastically when an outside threat presents itself which the government feels it must protect its people from. These are often the times that the most authoritarian, draconian doctrines emerge. To use an American perspective, we have the PATRIOT Act after 9/11, the Japanese internment during WW2, and martial law in the border states that did not secede during the Civil War -- and this is far from an exhaustive list. The IoM have been at war for longer than any of its citizens have been alive -- longer than anyone except the big E himself. It's not surprising that they rule with such a heavy hand.

Now that I think of it, there's another quote that comes to mind, more 40k related. I think it encapsulates the mindset well:

“Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us; unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation. In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality.”

Brother Heinrich wrote:
wait a minute, you're going to use Nazi germany as an example and say that the Imperium is benevolent in comparison? they're both equally bad thats the point. The good that could've come from the Imperium Died in the flames of the horus heresy and its original ideals have had 10,000 years to corrode to the point where in some ways they are no better than chaos.

I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.

Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.

Laodamia wrote:

I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.

Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.

You are right, but the point is that this topic is about who is the good guy, Imperials or Chaos. Frankly IMHO either one of them are, not even the Tau. But when you look on a different way, Space Marines and IG are fighting for the survival of the entire race, they do not torture or butcher people in the process. But some people this days are pretty simple and believe to the one point on the canvas for painting without looking the entire picture.

Brother Heinrich wrote:Observe the following Picture:

CLEARLY a good guy right?

Ah yes, as we all know, being a fierce soldier utterly dedicated to killing the guys that threaten the survival of Humankind is OBVIOUSLY bad if you show any signs of being in battle. That's just not cricket - real good guys remain clean as the purity of their souls wipes away all blood.
Jus' sayin', is all.

Brother Coa wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.

Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.

You are right, but the point is that this topic is about who is the good guy, Imperials or Chaos. Frankly IMHO either one of them are, not even the Tau. But when you look on a different way, Space Marines and IG are fighting for the survival of the entire race, they do not torture or butcher people in the process. But some people this days are pretty simple and believe to the one point on the canvas for painting without looking the entire picture.

...Well the Tyranid are fighting for survival. Many people find them evil. And you can't say say its just organismic action reaction with the whole hive mind and higher thinking its capable of. But thats getting OT


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Laodamia wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:
wait a minute, you're going to use Nazi germany as an example and say that the Imperium is benevolent in comparison? they're both equally bad thats the point. The good that could've come from the Imperium Died in the flames of the horus heresy and its original ideals have had 10,000 years to corrode to the point where in some ways they are no better than chaos.

I never said that the IoM was benevolent in comparison of Nazi Germany. And I never said either that Chaos could be compared to Nazi Germany. I used the example of Nazi Germany to prove that a functioning society can be evil.

Why is Chaos evil in the first place? Because it is its basic nature. Chaos is finds its origin in the warp, the Empyrean. It is formed from the worst emotions of the sentient species of the galaxy (since humanity is the dominant species, it strongly influences Chaos' nature), such as the fear of death, lust, anger, etc. This is why Chaos is evil at the most basic level. Its nature is evil. It means that daemons and other creatures formed from the warp will be evil and dangerous. There is no "good" or love in a daemon's mind. I know some of you are going to point out Papa Nurgle's affection for his followers. But this "love" is only a perverted and twisted image of a human emotion.
I agree that some lower chaos worshipers can have some good intentions and motivations, but these good emotions disappear sooner or later in the cultist's mind as he descends deeper into daemon hood.

Chaos is evil in essence because the viewing culture chooses to shun those emotions and label them evil. Again, evil, the definition, and perspective are relative to the viewer. Chaos is forged from the worst emotions and "fear of death" as you put it but all of those emotions are human and the fear of death is the driving purpose for the IOM. Chaos is one in the same as humanity, just the traits that society shuns but all humans have. when you point the finger its at mirror, hence why I said its like a blob that melts into one thing.

P.S. I finished Ghaunt's Ghosts series a few months ago and it was pretty good. Kind of fade of into the sunset ending which I didn't expect though.

Both sides only do what they do because they see it as right. Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more. As there isn't any universal right and wrong its impossible to say these any faction is wrong. A CSM may kill and torture thousands but it's just your his opinion against yours as to whether it's right or wrong. No actions or motives are good or evil. You may say that it's completely evil to kill an innocent person, a chaos worshiper can equally say it's their right to do so. To you it may seem awful to think that but they will have as much belief in their ideas as you do in your beliefs. What makes your belief more important than them. They aren't crazy / evil they just have a different view.

In the future our culture will change and so will our morals, does that make our ideas wrong? Does it mean that in the future everyone will be evil? Our morals aren't any better than any other cultures, the only thing we have to judge by are personal views which are by their nature biased.

Another example, Most people will openly admit they hate nazis. However if they had won WW2 and invaded us, our beliefs would be very different. We would argue with the same conviction, that nazis are right and that are culture now is evil- neither side would have any more proof than the other. The only reason that nazis are hated is because they lost- and as has already been said good or bad isn't connected to power and effeciency.

As sure as you are that your belief is "good" if you actualy look at it there is no proof that isn't biased. this makes it impossible to judge.

The best you can do is to find the side you relate to most and support them, but this doesn't mean they are right.

4M2A wrote:Both sides only do what they do because they see it as right. Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more. As there isn't any universal right and wrong its impossible to say these any faction is wrong. A CSM may kill and torture thousands but it's just your his opinion against yours as to whether it's right or wrong. No actions or motives are good or evil. You may say that it's completely evil to kill an innocent person, a chaos worshiper can equally say it's their right to do so. To you it may seem awful to think that but they will have as much belief in their ideas as you do in your beliefs. What makes your belief more important than them. They aren't crazy / evil they just have a different view.

After this you have said billions of Christians around the world are sad because their sacrifices are for nothing because Satan is not a bad guy after all.
That is my response after reading this. You cannot justify Chaos - because the very essence of it is evil. "Good and evil are perceptions, nothing more" - that is not true. Your decision determine you character, it is important to you as air that we breathe. And there is universal right and wrong, it is called moral and it is the building material for every religion and civilization today and in sci-fi universes. Moral forms the basic law of one individual, what is good and bad. And if I do have a right to kill someone, that do not means that it is a good decision.
And you say that Chaos are not crazy? Hmmm... let's ask for third opinion: the radical Tau Empire. How do they call Chaos marines: "Human madman".