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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/21/japan-excavates-site-human-experiments

Japan unearths site linked to human experimentsFormer Tokyo medical school site is linked to Unit 731, branch of imperial army which used prisoners in germ warfare programme


Share402 Justin McCurry in Tokyo guardian.co.uk, Monday 21 February 2011 21.01 GMT Article history
Toyo Ishii, a former military nurse, broke her 60-year silence about Unit 731 in 2006. Photograph: Itsuo Inouye/AP

Authorities in Japan have begun excavating the former site of a medical school that may contain the remains of victims of the country's wartime biological warfare programme.

The school has links to Unit 731, a branch of the imperial Japanese army that conducted lethal experiments on prisoners as part of efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction.

The Japanese government has previously acknowledged the unit's existence but refused to discuss its activities, despite testimony from former members and growing documentary evidence. In 2002 a Japanese court said Tokyo was under no obligation to compensate victims.

The government agreed to launch a ¥100m (£741,000) investigation after Toyo Ishii, a former nurse, said she had helped bury body parts on the site as the US occupation forces moved into Tokyo at the end of the second world war. Officials said so far there was no evidence the site had been used for experiments.

"We are not certain if the survey will find anything," Kazuhiko Kawauchi, a health ministry official, told Associated Press. "If anything is dug up, it may not be related to Unit 731."

Experts believe that if the excavation yields physical evidence that Japan conducted experiments on live humans, the government would face pressure to discuss the country's wartime conduct. "If bones or organs with traces of live medical experiments are found, the government would have to admit a wartime medical crime," said Yasushi Torii, head of a group that has been investigating the case for decades. "This is a start, although we will probably need more evidence to prove Unit 731's involvement."

Ishii, 88, broke her 61-year silence in 2006, claiming that she and colleagues had been ordered to bury numerous corpses, bones and body parts in the grounds following Japan's surrender in August 1945.

The then conservative government met with Ishii five years ago over her claims and pledged to pursue the case.

However, authorities held off on excavation until residents had been relocated and their apartments demolished last year. The current left-of-centre administration, which took office in 2009, has shown greater willingness to examine the darker episodes in Japan's wartime history.

The site in Tokyo's Shinjuku district is close to another where the mass graves of dozens of people who may have been victims of wartime experiments was uncovered in 1989.

Investigators concluded, however, that the remains, which included skulls with holes drilled through them or sections removed, were not connected to Unit 731 and that there was no evidence of criminal activity.

The health ministry concluded that the remains were those of non-Japanese Asians that had been used in "medical education" or recovered from war zones for analysis in Japan.

Unit 731, based in Harbin in northern China, conducted experiments on tens of thousands of mostly Chinese and Korean prisoners, and a small number of Allied prisoners of war. Some historians estimate up to 250,000 people were subjected to experiments. The remains of some are thought to have been transported from China to Tokyo for analysis.

According to historical accounts, male and female prisoners, named "logs" by their torturers, were subjected to vivisection without anaesthesia after they had been deliberately infected with diseases such as typhus and cholera. Some had limbs amputated or organs removed.

Leading members of the unit were secretly granted immunity from prosecution in return for giving US occupation forces access to years of biological warfare research. Some went on to occupy prestigious positions in the pharmaceutical industry, health ministry and academia.

Human guinea pigs
Japan's push into China began in 1931, and had become an occupation of large areas of the country by 1937, the year of the notorious Nanking massacre, in which, by some historical estimates, between 250,000 and 300,000 people in the city were killed. Those figures are disputed by some Japanese historians, who say the death toll was lower.

Unit 731 began conducting germ warfare experiments from its headquarters in Harbin, north-east China, in the mid-1930s, using human guinea pigs to develop biological weapons to assist Japan's push into regions in the south-east.

In 2004, a Chinese survivor described to the Guardian how his home on Zhejiang province, south-east China, had been attacked by plague-inflected fleas dropped by Japanese occupation forces. Records show that hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians were infected with the plague and other diseases.

As Japan confronted defeat in the summer of 1945, the unit's leader, Lieutenant General Shiro Ishii, told researchers to take their secrets to the grave and ordered his troops to demolish the unit's compound in Harbin.

But some former members of Unit 731 have come forward to discuss the past. They include Akira Makino, a former doctor who in 2006 said he had been ordered to conduct experiments on condemned men while stationed on the island of Mindanao in the Philippines.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Ah, let's see how many Japanophiles come along and try and act like Japan as a nation somehow weren't hideous monsters during WWII.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:20:26


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The sad thing is, every country involved in WW2 was pretty hideous in one way or another. Some just werent as exposed as the rest
   
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USA

Some countries were definitely the worst offenders.

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Killer Klaivex







Hmmm.....but are the ones who hide away and cover up the foul experiments to profit from them any morally better than those who committed them?


 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Well, unless a Japanese person was around and able to do something and didn't then thats not their issue. But we can all remember the evil that was done in the past, and recognize it in all of us. Note the link in the article about the US cover up for it as well.

Of course I still blame Japan for so many hours wasted watching bad ninja movies...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ketara wrote:Hmmm.....but are the ones who hide away and cover up the foul experiments to profit from them any morally better than those who committed them?


Yes, but just by degree. Evil is evil.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:34:00


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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But they did give us the Ninja Warrior show (I CANNOT remember what the hell it was called in Japan) I could and have watched that show for hours. It just doesnt get old


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agreed, evil is evil. Sure some did it on scales WAY OTT but that doesnt make the others any better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:35:25


 
   
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KingCracker wrote:But they did give us the Ninja Warrior show (I CANNOT remember what the hell it was called in Japan) I could and have watched that show for hours. It just doesnt get old

Dude, I did watch that show for hours. Fun for the entire family!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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KingCracker wrote:Agreed, evil is evil. Sure some did it on scales WAY OTT but that doesnt make the others any better
Yes. Yes it does make them better than the ones that did it OTT.

Everyone did evil, but not everyone raped the poodle. Some of them just kicked it a few times.

edit: and apparently they changed their tvtropes directory around a few times.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:45:30


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Killer Klaivex







Then doesn't that make the US almost as bad for spiriting away the scientists involved, taking their research, and protecting them from justice?

I mean, I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered almost as guilty, despite having not committed the actual crime myself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:40:32



 
   
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Ketara wrote:I mean, I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered almost as guilty, despite having not committed the actual crime myself.
That is an actual crime.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Melissia wrote:
Ketara wrote:I mean, I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered almost as guilty, despite having not committed the actual crime myself.
That is an actual crime.


Allow me to rephrase. ' I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered just as guilty despite having not actually robbed the bank itself.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:44:26



 
   
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Ketara wrote:Allow me to rephrase. ' I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered just as guilty despite having not actually robbed the bank itself.'
You'd be considered guilty of aiding and abetting a criminal, yes, and possibly more if it is proven you knew what you were doing.

I never said the allies didn't do bad things, in fact I recall saying they did, but I stand firmly by the statement that Japan was horrendous and Japanophiles need to get their heads out of their ass and stop trying to defend them as if they are the victims here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:49:16


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Melissia wrote:
Ketara wrote:Allow me to rephrase. ' I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered just as guilty despite having not actually robbed the bank itself.'
You'd be considered guilty of aiding and abetting a criminal, yes, and possibly more if it is proven you knew what you were doing.


By making me rephrase, we're no longer considering words like 'crime' and 'criminal'. I did that so that I couldn't be led off of the point I was ambling towards, that in aiding and abetting people who committed such evil, I believe the US of the time must be therefore be morally virtually as bad as those who committed the deed itself.


 
   
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hmm lets say im an evil scientist and it is my goal to break the meter in the evilometer and i could only choose one way to do it. how would i go about it?

experiment on my own people? - they ARE readily available

experiment on my enemies? - they had it coming

experiment on my own kin? - reunions suck.


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[edit:rewording]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:50:58


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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UK

What's the point in your statement Melissa?

Everyone did bad things in the war, some did worse, but what point at all does your "now watch them stick up for the japs" statement actually add to this conversation?

Should we all hate on the Japanese now then? Is that your recommended coa? yeah that will make the world a better place. It's 2011 for feths sake.

Your either a stupidly patriotic American who desperately wants to occupy a high ground we have already, a bigot or your 12 years old.

And i doubt its the latter.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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Melissia wrote:I couldn't care less.


Then why are you engaging in dialogue with me?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:51:31



 
   
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mattyrm wrote:What's the point in your statement Melissa?
I thought it was obvious, the point of me making that statement is to express my disdain for Japanophiles and their stereotypical denial of all of Japan's wrongdoing.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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In my Austin Ambassador Y Reg

Why does everyone have to try and boil this thread down to who is more complicit? War in general is a pretty bad thing; every nation participates in activities that would normally be considered beyond the pale. Trying to distil it all down to who is worse than everyone else is like trying to determine whose poo smells worse.

Can we not just agree that Japan did some fairly terrible things in WW2 in the name of war as did practically every other nation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:52:48


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Ketara wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Ketara wrote:Allow me to rephrase. ' I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered just as guilty despite having not actually robbed the bank itself.'
You'd be considered guilty of aiding and abetting a criminal, yes, and possibly more if it is proven you knew what you were doing.


By making me rephrase, we're no longer considering words like 'crime' and 'criminal'. I did that so that I couldn't be led off of the point I was ambling towards, that in aiding and abetting people who committed such evil, I believe the US of the time must be therefore be morally virtually as bad as those who committed the deed itself.


That lacks coherency. A crime by one is not a crime by all. More importantly, covering up is a difference by substantial degrees. Even in the cimrinal reference, covering up for a crime is generally less than committing the crime.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:58:51


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Ketara wrote:
Melissia wrote:I couldn't care less.


Then why are you engaging in dialogue with me?
It's early in the morning and I'm too grouchy for my own good, which is also why I said that even though that really isn't what I meant. And why I was so slow to edit it out.

I disagree. One can arguably benefit from evil without oneself being evil. But that particular argument is something I have no intention of participating in.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Melissia wrote:
mattyrm wrote:What's the point in your statement Melissa?
I thought it was obvious, the point of me making that statement is to express my disdain for Japanophiles and their stereotypical denial of all of Japan's wrongdoing.


Lets all chill it down. We can have a discussion without personal insults.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







filbert wrote:Why does everyone have to try and boil this thread down to who is more complicit? War in general is a pretty bad thing; every nation participates in activities that would normally be considered beyond the pale. Trying to distil it all down to who is worse than everyone else is like trying to determine whose poo smells worse.

Can we not just agree that Japan did some fairly terrible things in WW2 in the name of war as did practically every other nation.


I am aware that every nation does bad things in war(that being the point), but the reason Nazi Germany is so villified is because of the actions it took that went beyond the pale and norm of warfare. If we just say, 'everyone is as bad as each other', you're effectively saying Nazi Germany was no worse than the Allies. And where does that leave morality?

However, I'm genuinely intrigued as to whether you could consider the US any better than the Japanese in this respect, because of the getaway driver analogy I gave earlier. So I'm throwing the concept out there for dialogue, that being the purpose of a forum (to discuss).


 
   
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Wait, I insulted someone?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Did I just agree with mattrym?


Frazzled wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Ketara wrote:Allow me to rephrase. ' I'm pretty sure if I'm the getaway driver for some bank robbers, I'll be considered just as guilty despite having not actually robbed the bank itself.'
You'd be considered guilty of aiding and abetting a criminal, yes, and possibly more if it is proven you knew what you were doing.


By making me rephrase, we're no longer considering words like 'crime' and 'criminal'. I did that so that I couldn't be led off of the point I was ambling towards, that in aiding and abetting people who committed such evil, I believe the US of the time must be therefore be morally virtually as bad as those who committed the deed itself.


That lacks sanity.


Pretty sure he meant those who actually assisted those who committed the crime to avoid justice. Not that the US as a people were evil. Same goes for the Japanese.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/22 13:59:06


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As a casual observer, you were being a bit rude.

I don't know if I noticed a specific "insult" though.

Either way, unit 731 was pretty bad news. It just gets eclipsed by the holocaust.

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Melissia wrote:
I disagree. One can arguably benefit from evil without oneself being evil. But that particular argument is something I have no intention of participating in.


Interesting, especially if you consider killing in self-defence defence an 'evil' act.

Though the US aiding war criminals for personal gain really doesn't compare, and you've already said you don't want to get drawn into this.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

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Emperors Faithful wrote:
Melissia wrote:
I disagree. One can arguably benefit from evil without oneself being evil. But that particular argument is something I have no intention of participating in.


Interesting, especially if you consider killing in self-defence defence an 'evil' act.

Though the US aiding war criminals for personal gain really doesn't compare, and you've already said you don't want to get drawn into this.
Right. Also, I'm Texan, so take from taht what you will about the first part.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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