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I have seen the Emperor getting a lot of hate for his perceived mismanagement of his sons.

What we know about him:
- The greatest psyker the universe has ever known (as bright as the sun according to Ahriman, a potent psyker, in "Thousand Sons")
- Ruthless (achieve the salvation of humanity through forced compliance - molten core of violence as decribed in "The Last Church")
- Merciful when you comply (offering the priest the chance to recant and accept the new age of man in "The Last Church")
- Compassionate towards his sons (forgiving Magnus for destroying centuries of work on the webway and reluctance to using his full might against Horus)
- Loves the human race (willing to endure perpetual torment so his race can endure despite his "death")

Many forget that despite the above, the Emperor is neither omnipotent nor omni-prescient. No man can master the warp, hence his (perhaps) desire to master the webway. The Emperor was also orchestrating a galaxy wide war while supervising the investigation of the Eldar webway, a task so momentous and difficult that he eventually dedicated his full faculties to.

With regards to his sons:

Angron: Imagine you are running a galaxy wide conflict. You find an errant and rebellious son who refused to listen to you. Of cos you could have virus bombed the planet or saved Angron's brotherhood but how would you know all this with other weightier matters on your mind? You decide to do the next best thing, send him to his legion and trust that your craft in making Angron a demi-god and his own legion will eventually normalize him.

Magnus: This chap destroys centuries of work & research. You understand why he did it but am dissappointed at his disregard of your edict on Nikea. You send Russ & contingent of your crack troops to RETRIEVE him so he can account for himself in person.

Horus: The son you are most proud of. To believe that Horus is a traitor requires 2 things: 1) That you believe the mightest of your demi-gods can be corrupted & 2) To disregard your love + trust for your favored son.

Mortarion: You looked on with pride as Montarion tried his best to reach the uppermost levels of Barbarus. You only intervened when you know not doing so would result in your son's certain death.

Lorgar: The son who worshipped you during a period of time where you craved the reunification of mankind or working towards a deadline only you were aware of. You asked Malcador and Guilliman to intervene so you need not have to discipline a son who adored you in person and in front of his legion.

Konrad: What else could you have done? The damage done to Konrad happened before you ever arrived on the planet. Perhaps if you had developed him yourself but Chaos did its best to rid you of that chance.

Fulgrim: The son who craved perfection. What is inherently wrong with that? Your kids are supposed to be role-models!

Perturabo: You could only be at one place at any time so you left the mgmt of this son to Horus, the other son you trusted most.

Alpharius: As the book Legion stated, this primarch was actually loyal.

So you have a man, who did his best under extremely taxing circumstances. This is akin to a CEO trusting his chief Lieutenants to carry out biz as usual while he setup a new company in a new country.

If you blame the Emperor for the Imperium's many ills, I would suggest that you have either overestimated the power of the man or you have vastly underestimated his workload.

Anyone agrees?

Well said sir !

He did have a lot to do but he could have handled things a bit better...
For instance with Angron instead of teleporting him away (which Angron saw as dishonourable or cowardly) he could have teleported down himself and taken a load of bodyguards and fought togther with Angron instead. Not only would that help make Angron trust him Angron would respect him more.

well since the HH is part of the history of the 40k universe ( a ficticious history but history nontheless ), and for me history has never been a if they did this or that..this would have/not have happend, to me history is more of discovering WHY things happened the way they did.
And the OP did a excellent job of making points to some of the reasons for the Emperors actions, even giving a breif breakdown of his personality traits.
besides I don't think any parent does not make some mistakes, and he did have a very large family to take care of

(at any rate Overkill76 it was very enjoyable reading, but prepare for a storm of armchair emperors to second guess each of the big E's moves )

Thanks for the kind words Soo'Vah'Cha!

With regards to Purplefood, would you say the same thing if (this is the big IF):

You just received word that a major conflict involving several of your primarchs was going badly. In fact, it might even destabilize an entire region and set the crusade back by decades. You need to arrest that situation NOW.

Many details were left out in the tales of the Primarchs. I do not believe the Emperor would not have done what you mentioned if it was a viable choice (ref. Mortarion, Leman Russ, Ferrus... etc).

Perhaps if he did, he would have realized how deeply the implants have scarred the psyche of Angron. Just a thought.

Fair enough.
Most of looking back on history is ifs and such even if it is fictional history. Most of it is incomplete and we'll likely never be told the true motivations behind anything.

Exactly. That is why we propose assumptions based on what we know are the personality traits of the Emperor and his past actions.

The first heretic also shows us that the Emperor will take a much firmer stance should you test his patience (such as suddenly forcing his son Lorgar and his entire Legion to kneel before him).

In my best Eric Cartman voice, "RESPECT MY AUTHOURITY!!!"

At the end of the day Angron refused to have his implants removed i believe these did far more damage to him than any percieved slight of the Emperors.

Fulgrim wanted the impossible its one thing to want perfection but another thing entirely to want something thats impossible, whats more it isnt healthy, the EC and Fulgrim were on the whole willing to achieve it at any cost their whole obsession with perfection was only mirrored by their ego and their dark hidden fear of failure.

With regards to "His decisions" post heresy outbreak, I dont even think he knows whats going on half the time, his work is taking all his attention. Malcador and Dorn are running things, Ok one vould argue that he should have dropped his work and come out to sort everything out but as every good leader should he trusts the people beneath him to prepare as best they can until he can leave his work.

what I have always liked about the EOM is the fact that for all his abilities and powers he is still human ( at least in his emotions and reactions ) and it makes for very emotive storytelling, including the whole rebelion in heaven and the casting of the evil ones into hades ( HH always struck me as a pesudo-biblical sci-fi telling of the fall of lucifer , but again that may be just my interpertation )
The big E's faults are also what if ever he is reborn will again make for some truly Epic stories....

Where I do not agree with all of your points overkill I do share some of the sentiment that the Emperor was doing his best attempting to look after countless millions of planets and billions of people as well as trying to make his 18 current sons happy.

I believe that the Emperor was always trying to keep the Primarchs happy as any father would, but as with all offspring, they will squabble and pick on each other and cry for attention.

I think this is why the Emperor had to act at Nikea and reprimand Lorgar.

Mortarion and Leman Russ had both expressed concern to the Emperor on Magnus and Sorcery, so he had act.

Guilliman had expressed concern to the Emperor that Lorgar wasn't pulling his weight and still saying the Emperor was a God, so he had to act.

Angron had been reprimanded before because of his savagery as had Nighthaunter.

I think people do overestimate the Emperor, not in raw physical power perhaps but in his abillity to be everywhere at once.

Humans throughout history have attemtet to conquer this planet and have failed either because they bit off more than they could chew or time got the better of them or some other reason. The Emperor is conquering the ENTIRE GALAXY just think about how enormous that kind of thing is, he has 20 sons of which about 70% have major issues, they are all warring at different ends of the galaxy, so he misses a few birthdays or the occasional sports day so to speak. I think alot of the Emperors actions are forgiven when youi think about an entire galaxy crusade going on with matters that needed his attention, Its no wonder he appointed a Warmaster to sort things out while he got on with the important stuff.

I agree with Ugly Green Trog, alot of people seem to think the Emperor can be everywhere at once across a galaxy spanning empire, and unless he has developed some new co-location tricks in the 10,000 years of confinement on the golden throne, he will again have to give things a personal touch, and I am sure where-ever he would be he would bring victory and sunlight streaming from the clouds and choirs of Carmina burana singing Cherubs... but I digress, there would still be countless battlefields where he would only be there in spirit or the minds of his troops.
The question that has always cropped up when I get to brainstorming on this topic is, would he try and create new primarchs and to get it right this time, or would he learn from the past and not repeat what almost cost him everything.
My feeling is no.
He would put his faith in common humans, and perhaps the emerging psychic population ( that would have to be protected and nurtured for the safety of the imperium)

I just feel that the Emperor would be wise enough not to tempt fate again.....but who knows

Pilau Rice wrote:I believe that the Emperor was always trying to keep the Primarchs happy as any father would, but as with all offspring, they will squabble and pick on each other and cry for attention.

Well, that's quoted for truth :


Poor Emprah!

Hear Hear, overkill!

The Emperor's reluctance to apply full force against Horus proved his undoing, He could have handled Horus well away from Terra and with his foresight He could have called upon Space Wolves or some other legions to dispose of Horus.

The emperor made mistakes but despite being a chaos player, I actually really like the guy. He rocked. I think when you have 18 sons who weren't raised by you (and together as brothers) but each on a different end of the galaxy, it's pretty much impossible to prevent infighting and drama. Especially with the background of some and the sudden power (a whole legion) they now wielded.

It would've been smarter if the Emperor took a long vacation with his sons so that they might've been able to get to know each other better and get rid of their prejudices before they were send to different ends of the Imperium once again to wage war in his name.

Mit Gas wrote:It would've been smarter if the Emperor took a long vacation with his sons so that they might've been able to get to know each other better and get rid of their prejudices before they were send to different ends of the Imperium once again to wage war in his name.

Yeah, like going to Disneyland all together for example! I'm sure it would have eased the tensions between Russ and Magnus if they had taken pictures of Mickey together. And Horus would have certainly not started the HH if his father had taken him to Space Mountain.

overkill76 wrote:Magnus: This chap destroys centuries of work & research. You understand why he did it but am dissappointed at his disregard of your edict on Nikea. You send Russ & contingent of your crack troops to RETRIEVE him so he can account for himself in person.

Then Russ (the Emperor's lapdog) gets an order from Horus and goes crazy and tries to exterminate Magnus and his legion. The Emperor doesn't realize that his personal attack dog has gone traitor and abandons Magnus.

Oh, and that "centuries of work & research" the Emperor had designed? It was a prison that he was going to strap Magnus into.

The Emperor's biggest flaw (IMO) is not realizing that his children were human and had emotions and private desires. He had specific designs for each of his children and designed them towards that goal (Horus would run the Crusade, Russ was the check on the Primarchs, Magnus would sit on the Golden Throne, Guilliman would run the non-Crusading Astartes, etc.) But when the children saw that their fates had all but been set in stone by the Emperor, they rebelled, questioning his authority to enslave them to such a fate.

The Emperor was essentially the "god of mankind," and thought that he had the authority and mandate (maybe he did?) to enforce his will on the rest of mankind without explanation or debate. Maybe he was the only hope of saving the human race, but he was (and is) very heavy-handed (more like an iron fist) about his rule.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: ( HH always struck me as a pesudo-biblical sci-fi telling of the fall of lucifer , but again that may be just my interpertation )

I've always felt the same way. Horus is descibedas the brightest star as is Lucifer and they both fell pretty hard and now wage eternal wars against their previous ruler (Emprah). In both myths they both took half of the gods forces with them into rebellion and fall from grace, although the HH is described in much more detail.

The whole "prison" thing may or may not have been true. The Emperor said that he was going to have Magnus utilize the power of the golden throne to guide the imperium through the webway, being a glorious leader. It was Tzeentch(or a lord of change) who said that the Emperor intended to imprison him with the GT and just use him. Who knows which is really true, or more likely it is somewhere in the middle.

It hints in the HH novels that Big E did everything....as it was the only way humanity could survive. So, I'm willing to bet they make his near death be a martyrdom/sacrifice he knew would come to pass.

Also, realize that what the Imperium *became* after the HH is not what the Emperor had envisioned while he was still alive.

The biggest loss, as a result of the HH, was not the Emperor himself, but the golden future that would have been Humanity's under the direction of the Emperor, rather than the various petty Lords and Adepta that came after. This oppressive, semi-feudal state that is the Imperium of Man is a result of the loss of the Emperor, not what the Emperor planned for Humanity.

I love the big E as much as the next guy and the fact that he is fallible makes me love him more but i have a question that i seldom here asked and id love to get some other opinions on it.

What if the emperor intended for the HH to happen to facilitate his ascent to godhood? What if this was all planned out by him and in the end its all for the greater good? its possible IMO and would explain alot of his choices...

Penny for your thoughts guys?

(I cant promise there will be any pennies)

the rout wrote:I love the big E as much as the next guy and the fact that he is fallible makes me love him more but i have a question that i seldom here asked and id love to get some other opinions on it.

What if the emperor intended for the HH to happen to facilitate his ascent to godhood? What if this was all planned out by him and in the end its all for the greater good? its possible IMO and would explain alot of his choices...

Penny for your thoughts guys?

(I cant promise there will be any pennies)

It sounds like the 9/11 conspiracy theories to me... the emperor planning the HH? Why would he have done that?

To control the galaxy? He already did.

To create his own religion? He could have simply let Lorgar do it, he would have loved to do so.

Because he was a bad guy or because he was influenced by chaos? ... Do I really need to answer this one?

The HH was created by the Chaos Gods, with the help of Horus, their champion. This is what holy GW said. Don't think too much about these tricky theories on the HH, they're simply nonsense because they go against ALL the official fluff.

Im saying he might have done it to ascend to godhood so he could better help humanity s well as being able to better fight the chaos gods, and who knows he didnt trick them into starting the HH? hes done it before. Like i say im just theorizing and the fluff leaves alot open to interpretation quite deliberatelt so people like us can use a forum to discuss it lol

Pilau Rice wrote:

Angron had been reprimanded before because of his savagery as had Nighthaunter.

Night Haunter was reprimanded for doing what the Emperor had asked of his Legion, and after he ran off remember he allowed his punishment later on as vindication for the brutality he had used in his service to the Emperor. After all sending an assassin to take the head of one of your sons, sound brutal to me.

Until a Night Lord HH novel is made we wont know too much about Night Haunter's interactions with the others. All we have is the short story where he flees and his appearance in First Heretic.

Khisanth Magus wrote:The whole "prison" thing may or may not have been true. The Emperor said that he was going to have Magnus utilize the power of the golden throne to guide the imperium through the webway, being a glorious leader. It was Tzeentch(or a lord of change) who said that the Emperor intended to imprison him with the GT and just use him. Who knows which is really true, or more likely it is somewhere in the middle.

I think the Emperor was going to have Magus use the GT the same way Professor X used Cerebro. Free to use the machine when needed, not become a perimant fixture in it.

That picture is awesome btw, had to be said.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Angron had been reprimanded before because of his savagery as had Nighthaunter.

Night Haunter was reprimanded for doing what the Emperor had asked of his Legion, and after he ran off remember he allowed his punishment later on as vindication for the brutality he had used in his service to the Emperor. After all sending an assassin to take the head of one of your sons, sound brutal to me.

Until a Night Lord HH novel is made we wont know too much about Night Haunter's interactions with the others. All we have is the short story where he flees and his appearance in First Heretic.

Konrad Kurze (sp?) was clinically insane. There's all sorts of reasons and arguments that can be had around this but the bare fact is that he was more than a couple of plates short of a picnic.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Angron had been reprimanded before because of his savagery as had Nighthaunter.

Night Haunter was reprimanded for doing what the Emperor had asked of his Legion, and after he ran off remember he allowed his punishment later on as vindication for the brutality he had used in his service to the Emperor. After all sending an assassin to take the head of one of your sons, sound brutal to me.

Until a Night Lord HH novel is made we wont know too much about Night Haunter's interactions with the others. All we have is the short story where he flees and his appearance in First Heretic.

Konrad Kurze (sp?) was clinically insane. There's all sorts of reasons and arguments that can be had around this but the bare fact is that he was more than a couple of plates short of a picnic.

Oh I am not denying that my Primarch was one Bat short of a Belfry, I'm simply saying that the Emperor more or less knew this and encouraged at first the Night Haunter to continue doing things the way he had and to use his legion as such. Then he punished his son for doing what was expected of him. Sure, destroying Nostromo was probably not one of the things expected but still it was slipping.