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BrotherStynier wrote: I'm simply saying that the Emperor more or less knew this and encouraged at first the Night Haunter to continue doing things the way he had and to use his legion as such. Then he punished his son for doing what was expected of him.

That's exactly how he (Konrad) saw it. Being insane, his judgement doesn't hold a fantastic amount of weight.

His story however is the only version of it we have, and if we did have another version I'm sure it would be just as convoluted and ambiguous.

BrotherStynier wrote:His story however is the only version of it we have, and if we did have another version I'm sure it would be just as convoluted and ambiguous.

actually we do have Zso Sahaal's story as well which seems to back up Konrad's version of it

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:what I have always liked about the EOM is the fact that for all his abilities and powers he is still human ( at least in his emotions and reactions ) and it makes for very emotive storytelling, including the whole rebelion in heaven and the casting of the evil ones into hades ( HH always struck me as a pesudo-biblical sci-fi telling of the fall of lucifer , but again that may be just my interpertation )
The big E's faults are also what if ever he is reborn will again make for some truly Epic stories....

I can definitely agree with the reference. To add to it, compare The Big E with Jesus and his 18 disciples. Judas being Horus who betray him. Then The Emperor dies and ascends on The GT to watch over al humanity (seated at the right hand of the father) only to return one day when humanity needs him the most (to judge the quick and the dead)...

So where will you be when the Emperors Rapture comes?

Wow, that was way too spiritual for me...

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:His story however is the only version of it we have, and if we did have another version I'm sure it would be just as convoluted and ambiguous.

actually we do have Zso Sahaal's story as well which seems to back up Konrad's version of it

Ah.. I have unfortunately not had a chance to read the book on him, as I can't find it. But if he does have an account of it then that means its Night Lords 2 Imperium of Man 0 (killing Night Haunter doens't count it was planned, but since he is dead the NL dont get the point either.)

BrotherStynier wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Angron had been reprimanded before because of his savagery as had Nighthaunter.

Night Haunter was reprimanded for doing what the Emperor had asked of his Legion, and after he ran off remember he allowed his punishment later on as vindication for the brutality he had used in his service to the Emperor. After all sending an assassin to take the head of one of your sons, sound brutal to me.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, Nighthaunter was only doing what he had been told to do. But he essentially was a rogue agent, just like in Apocalypse Now.

He'd been told to stop but he kept doing things his way, the Emperor acted by sending the Assassins. A bit cheap but he had to deal with it all cloak and dagger.

My point was that The Emperor tried to do his best as a father and dealt with his sons the best way he thought possible, which wasn't always the right way.

The Assassins were only sent after things really had gone completely balls-up. It's not like Konrad was knocked off at the earliest convenience.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Assassins were only sent after things really had gone completely balls-up. It's not like Konrad was knocked off at the earliest convenience.

Indeed, the Emperor delayed acting as long as he could.

No one will ever know what the Emperors true goals were. We can only judge him (I use this loosely) by reading what he says, seeing the results of his actions and by the opinions of his sons. We may sympathize with the "wronged" primarchs on many levels, but what are they in the grand scheme of things when compared with the Emperor real goals? Why do we hate certain primarchs because we see them as blindly obedient? Especially when no one really knows what the goals were with the exception of saving mankind? In almost every case where a "wronged" primarch is concerned we have a blatant misunderstanding of the power and purpose behind the Emperors actions and/or arrogance based on a percieved notion of understanding. Even though the Emperor gave them guidelines to follow they thought they knew better or were "worth" more than was their due.

Those Primarchs who followed "blindly" may one day be vindicated. Perhaps they realized, humbly, that as powerful as they were they could not see the whole of his plans. In the end, they were just pieces in the grand scheme and had to comes to terms with this for the sake of humanity. The wronged Primarchs simply weren't able to get around the fact that they were of no more use to the Emperor other than completing the goals of the crusade. Even many marines feared the end to the crusade. What are warriors without a war to fight?

I think this was a hollow view, as no one, not even the Primarchs could know what was to come next.

I think The Emperor is just a glorified murderer. As one famous person said, "Never think that war, no matter how justified or necessary, is not a crime." He practically killed more people than all of history's dictators and tyrants combined. "But the Emperor didn't kill anyone" you may say. Tell me this: Why did he create Super Soldiers created for the sole purpose of war, who if you've read most books, are bound to betray their creator sooner than later? He favored them over humanity, who he was supposed to be trying to unite, showing arrogance towards the human race in the process? Why didn't he just achieve it through peaceful needs? I'm starting to think he, in his quest to better humanity, broke everything.

Peaceful means....hmmm a hippie Emperor , I am sure some of the thousands of planets joined the empire peacefully without bloodshed, but some would not, and a divided humanity will always slide into war eventually because somebody will always want what somebody else has, and then they shoot them in the face...

Of course the Emperor was a tyrant and a dictator, but he was humanities best hope against a galaxy of enemies.

Try peaceful negotiations with Orks......hmmm yeah that will end well.

Try peaceful negotiations with Tyranids.....they will just ask you to send more yummy snacks..er I mean diplomats

same goes for Necrons, Dark eldar, and maybe even to lesser extent Eldar, although I am sure they would attempt to manipulate humanity to fight their wars for them...sneaky gits

The only Xenos that diplomacy would be useful with is the Tau, but the empire has been burned to many times by mean nasty aliens to trust again...it's a shame really

I remember a quote I carved into a OP in Afghanistan.
"you kill one person...you are a murderer, you kill a dozen people...you are a psychopath, you kill a thousand people...you are monster, you kill millions...you are a conqueror, you kill everyone...You are a GOD! " ( and alone )

The Emperor is a killer its true but as is said time and again, hes human. He has the right to rule humanity because he is the best of us, he wanted humanity to survive all the things that would try to kill it and so far it has. All Im saying is you have to break some eggs to make an omlette and if the omlette your making is the size of a galaxy then you need some pretty good egg breakers (primarchs, SMs and what not) and a crap load of eggs

Except nobody has the right to rule anyone. Not even a God Emperor, which there are several examples in history, who in the end, proved to be just as human as the rest of us. The "God-Emperor" is no different. Your basically saying he has the divine right of kings, an idea which has largely been dis proven, as the French, English, and American revolution have shown.

I said he deserves to rule because of who he is, hes superior to every human in every way, nothing like the kings your reffering to who were JUST human, hes smarter and more powerful, better to put him in charge than some mortal who cannot grasp the needs of an entire galaxy who has more right to rule than the big E? IMO nobody, and whod do a better job? IMO same answer, im not saying its a divine right but having the best human ruling is bette thananother George Bush right? (No flaming intended, Everyone hates Bush right? lol the pun may or may not be deliberate)

Like you said, he's human. Human philosophy still applies to him, even if he claims to be smarter and more powerful. In-fact, saying those thing is pretty much the ultimate sign of arrogance, demonstrated by his creation of the Space Marines, when humanity clearly has the ability to protect itself. In fact, if anything he strong-armed humanity into submission, and there's a saying that goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

But he IS stronger and smarter and humanity wasnt and isnt strong enough to defend itself from the main enemy, itself. The SM stand between humanity and the things it cannot destroy, the emmperor is arrogant its true but since he is the most powerful single being he has every right to be a bit of a douche. Humanity needs a leader man, and if not him who? i asked this in my last post but you never answered, hes the best man for the job, and better a powerful man with the best of intentions, than a mortal with selfish desires.

IIRC nowhere in the fluff I have read is there any indication that the Emperor declared his superior intellect or power, He demostrated it! , again I seem to remember he stayed in the shadows of mankind for centuries observing , and subtly influancing humans, until finally at a time of our greatest need ( or for the conspiracy people out there , the time of his doing )
He rose to lead , and lead from the front, always setting an example for his primarchs and followers, maybe in those thousands of years of observation he was hoping that humanity would be able to face what was ahead...and we never showed the unity of purpose to survive in such a hostile universe as the 40k one.

Now if this was a star trekkie universe, then yeah he is a evil tin god, in a galaxy of happy planets and aliens with messed up foreheads

But its not, its a universe at war ..constantly, and we needed a Ceasar, Napoleon, Ghengis Khan, Alexander, Lee, Henry V, Freidrick the Great, Nobonaga, Shaka Zulu ( please excuse spelling) all wrapped into one, and not a peace-nick that would just get everyone killed.

But thats just my opinion

Thanks for listening ( picks up his soapbox and exits stage right. )

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Assassins were only sent after things really had gone completely balls-up. It's not like Konrad was knocked off at the earliest convenience.

not true, assassins were after Konrad threw most of the Great Crusade this is mentioned in Lord of Night

Fourcartridge has raised an interesting point really.

I agree that the Emperor can be considered as a dictator, or even a monster. We could even say that he killed in his great crusade and his unification wars more people than anyone else in the history of the galaxy (though Horus' Heresy killed far, FAR more people IMO).

But I will ask you a single and simple question:

What would have happened if the Emperor had never risen to lead humanity in its darkest hour? What would have happened if the Old Night had never ended?

Wars would have never stopped on Terra, Humanity would have never been united. We would have been preyed upon by Chaos minions and xenos empires until our total extinction.

The Emperor may be considered a monster by some because of some of his actions. But he saved humanity and created a bleak and wavering hope for survival in this uncaring galaxy.

I really don't think Humanity needs to unite in order to survive. The Orks are less tenacious and like cockroaches, and they do just fine in their current state. Like I said Before, The Emperor's own arrogance is for the most part responsible for the current state of humanity.

I don't think the point is entirely valid. When you're surrounded by enemies it is not a crime to fight those who wish you dead. To surrender and let yourself die is a crime against the natural will of preservation- whether its self preservation or group preservation.

To say he's a murderer, at least in the context that he's somehow evil, is laughable since pretty much every leader who has lead his people to greatness and power has done so via violence. Its natural really. It's how we've survived, its how we've grown, and there is nothing to doubt that the same will be true 38,000 years from now. The only thing that a pacifist society is good for is being conquered by those who are willing to commit violence; thats in this world where there are real power motives, against a galaxy with orks that will kill trillions for fun any pacifistic leader would have been suicide for the race of men.

People don't need a leader and someone to rule? I'm glad you've lived all your life in an environment full of responsible people, you are one lucky guy/gal, but there are places on this earth, even within the United States, that rule is desperately needed. I'm glad to know you're one of the people who has never had to live there, unlike me.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Assassins were only sent after things really had gone completely balls-up. It's not like Konrad was knocked off at the earliest convenience.

not true, assassins were after Konrad threw most of the Great Crusade this is mentioned in Lord of Night

I'm sure Primarchs were prime targets for assassins at all times (and could very well have been Imperial in origin). This doesn't necessarily mean the Emperor was after his head or that he even sent the assassins at all. Even in the new Horus Heresy book (the one focussing on assassins) the traitors aren't sure if the assassins sent against Horus were from the Emperor himself or someone in authority.

I think the Big E used the primarchs like tools, and rightly so, he made them all with purposes to fulfill and if they didnt then they were failed projects. He tried to treat them in the ways that were best for humanity not the primarchs as individulas, ive said it before that whereas the primarchs thought of him as a father i dont think he thought of them as real sons, save maybe Horus. I think hes beyond such emotions as he is so far seperated from the human condition that emotions in general are quite alien concepts, which makes him a great leader as he can be objective and pragmatic as opposed to selfish and biased.

The primarchs would have been very different people had the Emperor raised them but since they were raised by humans they gained many of their flaws,the Emperor tried is hardest to have his plans succeed. I love the Emperor character but I can see why some people think hes a bit of a douche to the primarchs they like but in the Emperors position did he really have any choice?

sorry for the rant...

Here are the things that I find interesting.

Is the Emperor Human? Perhaps in a loose sense of the word. The fluff varies, but even as late as "the First Heretic" there is a glimpse into the Emperors nature when his countenance is looked upon. It points to a bit of fluff from way back which described how the Emperor came about in the first place. At least this is how I see it anyway.

We identify with the Primarchs because we are human and see the tragedy of their existance. Supremely powerful beings set upon a course by their 'father' which for all intents and purposes had an expiration date. The end of the Great Crusade. Many times it is mentioned throughout the books of the dread some off the primarchs felt as the crusade drew to a close.

We look upon them as father and son, and maybe the Emperor really did see them as such. We know the Primarchs held this view. But just suppose the Emperor didn't see them that way. He maintained the fascade of father and sons because he knew his creations, as powerful as they were, were only human after all. They needed that connection, and like all mankind had an intrinsic need for something greater than themselves when they began to feel doubt. Which they did on many occassions. To who does a superbeing turn when they have doubts? Doubts about their future, doubts about who they are and their place in the universe. Some, turned to their brothers for consolation, brothers who had already had their battles with doubt and believing they could not find an equal in THIS universe with which to discuss those doubts, found a willing ear in chaos.

Many fans point to facts which on the surface look like loyalty to the Emperor. Like espousing the Emperors divinity, one of the linch-pins of the Heresy in fact. The Emperor himself denied this vehemently. Maybe the primarchs who subscribed to this view were really vying for divinity themselves. After all, they were searching for meaning. They couldn't justify their 'perfect' natures with anything less than being the sons of a god. This is arrogance, not loyalty.

The truth might very well be that the Primarchs were designed for the Great Crusade AND beyond. Guardians of the true inheritors of the Emperors grace, humanity at large. The classic God loves his Angels, but his Humans more tale. Some primarchs understood this and accepted it, others didn't want to.

Carpediem833 wrote:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:what I have always liked about the EOM is the fact that for all his abilities and powers he is still human ( at least in his emotions and reactions ) and it makes for very emotive storytelling, including the whole rebelion in heaven and the casting of the evil ones into hades ( HH always struck me as a pesudo-biblical sci-fi telling of the fall of lucifer , but again that may be just my interpertation )
The big E's faults are also what if ever he is reborn will again make for some truly Epic stories....

I can definitely agree with the reference. To add to it, compare The Big E with Jesus and his 18 disciples. Judas being Horus who betray him. Then The Emperor dies and ascends on The GT to watch over al humanity (seated at the right hand of the father) only to return one day when humanity needs him the most (to judge the quick and the dead)...

So where will you be when the Emperors Rapture comes?

Wow, that was way too spiritual for me...

...Jesus had 12 disciples. And only 2 "betrayed" him (Judas, obviously, and Peter in a sense, since he disowned Jesus but later repented).

The HH works better as God vs Satan, not Jesus.

The Emperor suffers from pride? Is this the same guy who:

1) Spent centuries learning and guiding humanity from the background
2) Denies his divinity at every chance
3) Works overtime to ensure humanity is defended (sometimes from itself)
4) Chose to live in absolute agony so he can keep the warp nexus on Terra closed and the astronomicon running?

By the Emperor's golden balls! The Emperor IS the most powerful, intelligent and on almost all levels, superior being in the 40k universe and he choose to serve!

During the old night, enslaver organisms took control of entire planets. Orks, DE and other fell entities conquered and pillaged with abandon. There were certainly pockets of light but I do not see how humanity, divided and alone CAN save itself from the psyker, alien and warp.

Imagine our world riven by a nuclear world war. The remants of civilisation try to eke out a meagre living while tyrants and despots thrive and enforce their rule through brutality/lies (ref. The Last Church).

Looking around him, the Emperor realizes that mankind needs a leader. A leader capable of making ruthless decisions when the situation calls for it.

You can label him as cruel but the Emperor is a realist. Have you ever tried catching sand in your palm? You can catch most (if you're good) but never all. In a galaxy of humans, even several billion deaths become a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things.

Hence the need for the primarchs to take his torch and illuminate the galaxy quickly, efficiently and with show-stopping force where required. Conquest by peaceful means? Has North Korea become more coorperative over the years? (sorry to bring real life here but this is just to underscore a point)

Furthermore, using humans against humans would lead to a conflict of attrition. A slow grind that consumes much resources and delay the crusade.

Look at a space marine! A figure designed to inspire awe and fear in equal measure. Let your enemies see their despair made real and wars can be avoided.

Last but not least, the point where history shows us great men eventually doom themselves and their empires.

The Emperor is immortal. Supremely powerful to boot (ref. The De'shea short story where it describes how the Emperor takes to the field in actual combat to prevent an imperial line from collapsing. It also describes how Kharn was awed by the Emperor's martial power which leaves me with no doubt that the big E could have cleaned any of the Primarch's clock). The figures of history mentioned earlier suffers from fear, doubt and diminishing mental and physical faculties. The Emperor has none of these failings.

So what say you fellow forumites? Is the Emperor a savior or the mother of all tyrants?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
The HH works better as God vs Satan, not Jesus.

The Fall of Lucifer, yes? That's a much better comparison than Jesus and the disciples.

Although I've never understood how an omnipotent God could allow a civil war to break up his heavenly host. That's probably a bit OT here.

overkill76 wrote:
So what say you fellow forumites? Is the Emperor a savior or the mother of all tyrants?

tyrant and ruthless, just like i am

Hes a savior and a tyrant and a god and a human and thats why he rules both figuratively and literally.

biccat wrote:

overkill76 wrote:Magnus: This chap destroys centuries of work & research. You understand why he did it but am dissappointed at his disregard of your edict on Nikea. You send Russ & contingent of your crack troops to RETRIEVE him so he can account for himself in person.

Then Russ (the Emperor's lapdog) gets an order from Horus and goes crazy and tries to exterminate Magnus and his legion. The Emperor doesn't realize that his personal attack dog has gone traitor and abandons Magnus.

Oh, and that "centuries of work & research" the Emperor had designed? It was a prison that he was going to strap Magnus into.

The Emperor's biggest flaw (IMO) is not realizing that his children were human and had emotions and private desires. He had specific designs for each of his children and designed them towards that goal (Horus would run the Crusade, Russ was the check on the Primarchs, Magnus would sit on the Golden Throne, Guilliman would run the non-Crusading Astartes, etc.) But when the children saw that their fates had all but been set in stone by the Emperor, they rebelled, questioning his authority to enslave them to such a fate.

The Emperor was essentially the "god of mankind," and thought that he had the authority and mandate (maybe he did?) to enforce his will on the rest of mankind without explanation or debate. Maybe he was the only hope of saving the human race, but he was (and is) very heavy-handed (more like an iron fist) about his rule.

Actually from what I read in Visions of Heresy, the research the Emperor was doing was to take advantage of the Webways to break humanities dependency on using the Warp. The Golden Throne only becomes a prison once Magnus uses Sorcery to punch big holes in the Emperor's psychic wards. It's mentioned he'd prefer to use Magnus as his replacement when he goes to face Horus, which is how Malcador snuffs it actually as the next most powerful psychic.

I always inferred that Horus was to blaming of the purging of Prospero, by twisting the Emperors orders to Russ. Might be wrong there.

I do however believe he does get a bad rap. Like other's have said I feel he was human, and yes extremely gifted, but still human. His biggest fault was his failure to explain to his sons the reason why he left them imo. As they didn't have the understanding of the bigger picture, doubts crept in, and without EOM on hand or easily accessible, self doubt and old grievances between the brothers crept in allowing the seeds of heresy to take hold, like Horus's self doubt and abandonment issues or Magnus understanding the reason why sorcery was bad and why he was being censured at Nikkea.

People have made parallels between God and Luicifer and Omniscience, but it draws to my mind the old saying about far advance technology being akin to magic. I reckon it's more plausible that EOM was, while being incredibly incredibly powerful, a human but so far advanced beyond the scope that it seemed to others to be borderline "God-like", and thus afflicted by Human flaws. I'd say he'd been working to the "survival" of humanity for so long he'd forgotten to expand his vision to factor in the other factors, like his "sons" own drive ambition and issues with each other.