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-where do they come from

-how many would there be per regiment?

They come from various high-gravity worlds.
They usually aren't depoyed in regiments because they are unweildly.

Ogryn is a catch all term for a type of abhuman that branched off from base humans on high gravity worlds throughout the IoM.

They are used as an attachment within regiments.

My question is why the heck are they tall? Squats = High gravity world, i.e. stocky and short. I cant think of any gravity condition that would lead to tall AND stocky. Unless the gravity on their planet fluctuates between high and low, causing stretching of bones and defintion of muscle tone.

Unless the gravity on their planet fluctuates between high and low, causing stretching of bones and defintion of muscle ton

to be honest i couldn´t think of natural phenomena that would cause such fluctuatins in gravity...maybe if they where in a twinsystem... i guess its more like genetic tempering...to make colonists that can still work while ebing under harsh gravitational conditons...and then over the milennia these former tempering with genes took a wild streak on their own and produced the hulky fellas we all love^^

Yeah i think they should 'Retcon' it to be genetic meddling that created Ogryns. Failed supersoldiers that ended up stoopid maybe?

The officia fluff is that they come from worlds were the humans have evolved into having more strength and durability, but sacrificing intelligence to get that. I honestly can not think of a situation where that'd be necessary, but hey...it's a big galaxy and surely there has to be a few planets where that's the case.

erm...the only supersoldier i know off that din´t went dumb as a doornail was cap america...the rest i think is pretty thick but correct me if i am wrong...

I think its not necessarily just gravity alone, but more Death World like surroundings, where higher mathematics don't save you from that rampaging feral grox you just stumbled upon. Natural selection, maybe coupled with technological decline due to long separation from the IoM after the age of strife...some "politics" on the planet that encourage martial prowess over intelligence...voila, Ogryns.

Witzkatz wrote:I think its not necessarily just gravity alone, but more Death World like surroundings, where higher mathematics don't save you from that rampaging feral grox you just stumbled upon. Natural selection, maybe coupled with technological decline due to long separation from the IoM after the age of strife...some "politics" on the planet that encourage martial prowess over intelligence...voila, Ogryns.

A feral grox? Aren't grox essentially space cows?
But yeah probably this possibly with a slight increase in gravity.

purplefood wrote:

Witzkatz wrote:I think its not necessarily just gravity alone, but more Death World like surroundings, where higher mathematics don't save you from that rampaging feral grox you just stumbled upon. Natural selection, maybe coupled with technological decline due to long separation from the IoM after the age of strife...some "politics" on the planet that encourage martial prowess over intelligence...voila, Ogryns.

A feral grox? Aren't grox essentially space cows?
But yeah probably this possibly with a slight increase in gravity.

Grox need to be lobotabised or altered with cybernetic implants to keep them calm, as they can be very aggressive, they are very big reptiles after all.

I think the difference between squats and ogryn (both from high grav worlds) is the rest of the enviroment, squats needed to maintain their intelligence so they did, while ogryns live on harsh worlds were technology failed them but a club didn't.

purplefood wrote:

Witzkatz wrote:I think its not necessarily just gravity alone, but more Death World like surroundings, where higher mathematics don't save you from that rampaging feral grox you just stumbled upon. Natural selection, maybe coupled with technological decline due to long separation from the IoM after the age of strife...some "politics" on the planet that encourage martial prowess over intelligence...voila, Ogryns.

A feral grox? Aren't grox essentially space cows?
But yeah probably this possibly with a slight increase in gravity.

Have you ever seen an angry cow? Not something you want charging at you.

I'm going to have to say that it was a mutation, maybe a virus or some form of hormonal imbalance. There is no real evidence to suggest that evolution can take place naturally over such a short timeframe as 40,000 years. That leaves a kind of selective breeding, genetic manipulation or random fluke.

Trickstick wrote:Have you ever seen an angry cow? Not something you want charging at you.

I'm going to have to say that it was a mutation, maybe a virus or some form of hormonal imbalance. There is no real evidence to suggest that evolution can take place naturally over such a short timeframe as 40,000 years. That leaves a kind of selective breeding, genetic manipulation or random fluke.

And isn't evolution just a bunch of random wildcards from the gene pool?

Anyway, if you look at it this is actually not a very bad solution to a number of problems, all with a good chance of coming up. It's all based on priority; survival before comfort. And as we all know, intelligence is comfort. And being massive and bulky is obviously suited to survival. Also, being stupid can decrease your sense of morality and empathy. Thus making you less afraid of taking a life of, well.... pretty much anything.

And with the evolution not being able to happen in 38,000 years? Subtle evolution happens from generation to generation. So 38,000 years are actually enough time for ample opportunities for evolutionary jumps and more subtle evolution to happen.

Please do mind that this is just a guess from what I know, I haven't really researched the subject. But my guesses at science stuff is usually pretty damn close/correct. Inform me of any lies I may be spreading, please.

For a speciation event? 38,000 years is a bit short of a time, however for the evolution of an aesthetically different member of the same species? Not at all. If you took a population of humans, and dropped them into a situation where intelligence was a liability and brute strength was required? Then the development of a race similar to Ogryns over a few dozen millenia isn't too far stretched.

TheLinguist wrote:

Trickstick wrote:Have you ever seen an angry cow? Not something you want charging at you.

I'm going to have to say that it was a mutation, maybe a virus or some form of hormonal imbalance. There is no real evidence to suggest that evolution can take place naturally over such a short timeframe as 40,000 years. That leaves a kind of selective breeding, genetic manipulation or random fluke.

And with the evolution not being able to happen in 38,000 years? Subtle evolution happens from generation to generation. So 38,000 years are actually enough time for ample opportunities for evolutionary jumps and more subtle evolution to happen.
=

Seeing as 40k is based on an altered version of this world and we do not have an expansive space empire the time frame is not 40000 or 38000 years, the time difference would be between the fall of the dark age of technology and the great crusade, so it would be alot less.

@trickster - 'random fluke' is exactly what evolution is, evolution takes just one useful change and a very sexually active male to spread it. Seeing as abhumans are still basically humans that are a bit different, it would just be that on the world in question, the bigger humans that had the gene for greater muscle development survived to have more children and those children carried the genes and other ther generations this got more exagerated

I have a question: Can a normal human procreate with an Ogryn?

This question is quite important because if the answer is yes, it would mean that Ogryns can still be considered as humans. They would only be a sub-species of Homo Sapiens.

If not, it would mean that Ogryns are now a completely different species from humans and can fully be described as xenos.

Well they are described as homo sapiens gigantus, which leads me to believe they are a sub species of homo sapiens and thus not xeno.

Thinking about breeding, they could feasibly breed with ratlings (homo sapiens minimus) or even squats (homo sapiens rotundus). Of course, I dread to think what these couplings would produce.

@BluntmanDC: I suppose I forgot about the fact that the timeframe for ogryn evolution had not started yet, but that means there is even less time to evolve. The high gravity worlds would probably reduce life expectancy, thus meaning that more generations would be produced in the same time frame.

I originally said evolution when I really meant to say speciation. There is little chance of a new species evolving in such a short timeframe without a massive amount of outside mutagens. Of course, the ogryn worlds probably have higher occurrences of mutagens to help speed up the process.

ChrisWWII wrote:The officia fluff is that they come from worlds were the humans have evolved into having more strength and durability, but sacrificing intelligence to get that. I honestly can not think of a situation where that'd be necessary, but hey...it's a big galaxy and surely there has to be a few planets where that's the case.

Ork's.......

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:The officia fluff is that they come from worlds were the humans have evolved into having more strength and durability, but sacrificing intelligence to get that. I honestly can not think of a situation where that'd be necessary, but hey...it's a big galaxy and surely there has to be a few planets where that's the case.

Ork's.......

Ork's never evolved, they were genetically engineered. Also, they reproduce via spores, not sexually. I don't think that the orks are even capable of evolution, though I suppose some mutation could happen.

Laodamia wrote:I have a question: Can a normal human procreate with an Ogryn?

This question is quite important because if the answer is yes, it would mean that Ogryns can still be considered as humans. They would only be a sub-species of Homo Sapiens.

If not, it would mean that Ogryns are now a completely different species from humans and can fully be described as xenos.

Thats close but not entirely true, the main definition of a species is that it produces viable offspring (which carry the same markers) that they themselves can breed. There are many examples of animals that are seperate species but that can breed together just look at mules, ligers etc. but this is not entirely true as if you look at elephants there are several seperate species that can still breed together.

Trickstick wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:The officia fluff is that they come from worlds were the humans have evolved into having more strength and durability, but sacrificing intelligence to get that. I honestly can not think of a situation where that'd be necessary, but hey...it's a big galaxy and surely there has to be a few planets where that's the case.

Ork's.......

Ork's never evolved, they were genetically engineered. Also, they reproduce via spores, not sexually. I don't think that the orks are even capable of evolution, though I suppose some mutation could happen.

By the shear number of fungi, evolution is a entirely possible for life that reproduce by spores

Orks are the exception to any rule... i'm not even kidding about that.

The Ork fluff does suggest something akin to evolution. Saying that Orks that mature on a War world grow a lot bigger and hardier than other orks. I don't have the codex to hand, but it's in the section outlining the huge Tyranid invasion of an Ork System.

But back to the topic, I always considered Ogryn as a catch all term for subhumans that have evolved/been bred for heavy manual labour in dangerous conditions. Hence the strength and lack of intelligence.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ogryn

Just some background info on Ogryns - unfortunately does not include origins.

However, they are generally found on marginally inhabitable planets with high gravity. Such planets being big and strong would be a definate advantage, with weaker members being killed of by the environment or predators. It wouldn't take too many generations before there would be a definate tendency for larger and stronger members to be produced and survive to reproductive age over and above weaker, "smarter" members.

Also, with a limited gene pool (as it mentions, such planets were often prisons, or only lightly settled because of the conditions) such traits would become further reinforced, as well as inate genetic defects become more likely to be expressed (which could take the form of learning difficulties).

ChrisWWII wrote:For a speciation event? 38,000 years is a bit short of a time, however for the evolution of an aesthetically different member of the same species? Not at all. If you took a population of humans, and dropped them into a situation where intelligence was a liability and brute strength was required? Then the development of a race similar to Ogryns over a few dozen millenia isn't too far stretched.

Hmm I'm not too sure about this, I don't think random divergence could produce that kind of result in such a short time. I think if GW wrote about Ogryns/squats nowadays (and in light of more modern science, remember a lot of this stuff was written 20 years ago and probably with a lot less thought than we are applying to it now) they would no doubt change it so that the abhumans came about as a result of selective breeding programs, or else more likely genetic engineering.

Kind of like the old fluff that had Tyranids just drifting between star systems, the time involved for that to happen would mean that they would be absolutely no threat at all to the Imperium as if they really were 'drifting' you would probably be looking at 100,000 years or so to reach the next star system, so the Imperium would be long gone by the time the Nids actually got anywhere. And don't get started on the thought of doing this between galaxies..
Sure enough, the later (and more thought out) fluff has the Nids using some kind of weird space-hole technology that circumvents the massive voids in space.

Well, remember, the Ogryns are not a new species, they're an aesthetically different species of humanity. If you took a population of human beings, especially one that likely already favors brute strenght over deep intelligence (remember, Ogryn worlds tened to be prison worlds in the Dark Age), the ten thousand years before the Imperium found them again doesn't seem like it's too much to say we'd get a very aesthetically different population.

Pacific wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:For a speciation event? 38,000 years is a bit short of a time, however for the evolution of an aesthetically different member of the same species? Not at all. If you took a population of humans, and dropped them into a situation where intelligence was a liability and brute strength was required? Then the development of a race similar to Ogryns over a few dozen millenia isn't too far stretched.

Hmm I'm not too sure about this, I don't think random divergence could produce that kind of result in such a short time. I think if GW wrote about Ogryns/squats nowadays (and in light of more modern science, remember a lot of this stuff was written 20 years ago and probably with a lot less thought than we are applying to it now) they would no doubt change it so that the abhumans came about as a result of selective breeding programs, or else more likely genetic engineering.

This really doesn't hold water:

GW was formed be educated BRITISH nerds, i highlight British for the fact that evolution has been widely taught in this country for decades.

Genetic engineering has been a staple of science fiction long before 40K was created

selective breeding has been around for centuries, if not millenia and has been widely used in Britain for over 200 years

From this we can deduce that the writers made a concious choice, so fluff wins.

Also as a side note selective breeding and evolution are not seperate entities, evolution is the passing of genetic information from breeding, maamalian breeding is by its very definition selective. In a non civilised world the strongest males would have got what they wanted over the weaker, so quite quickly weakness is weeded out.

No, really this is a case of mixed messages. Ogryn are mutated humans.

The Imperium hates mutants, except when it doesn't.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Pacific wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:For a speciation event? 38,000 years is a bit short of a time, however for the evolution of an aesthetically different member of the same species? Not at all. If you took a population of humans, and dropped them into a situation where intelligence was a liability and brute strength was required? Then the development of a race similar to Ogryns over a few dozen millenia isn't too far stretched.

Hmm I'm not too sure about this, I don't think random divergence could produce that kind of result in such a short time. I think if GW wrote about Ogryns/squats nowadays (and in light of more modern science, remember a lot of this stuff was written 20 years ago and probably with a lot less thought than we are applying to it now) they would no doubt change it so that the abhumans came about as a result of selective breeding programs, or else more likely genetic engineering.

This really doesn't hold water:

GW was formed be educated BRITISH nerds, i highlight British for the fact that evolution has been widely taught in this country for decades.

Genetic engineering has been a staple of science fiction long before 40K was created

selective breeding has been around for centuries, if not millenia and has been widely used in Britain for over 200 years

From this we can deduce that the writers made a concious choice, so fluff wins.

Also as a side note selective breeding and evolution are not seperate entities, evolution is the passing of genetic information from breeding, maamalian breeding is by its very definition selective. In a non civilised world the strongest males would have got what they wanted over the weaker, so quite quickly weakness is weeded out.

Yes I'm aware of these things, I'm British myself (despite the flag).

The point I was making, was that it just wasn't given the attention in the initial rule books. Take marines as an example; I believe in RT (I will have to check exactly) they got 1 line saying that their bodies were 'chemically hardened' to be more resilient than a normal human. I'm sure the original writers were an educated bunch of chaps, so as I said I think it was more of a case of them just giving it a passing thought and not really going into a huge amount of depth concerning it (remember when RT was first written, they had an entire universe to establish!) Note that this changed with the 40k expansion Compendium book, when the subject of a marine's biology got the depth it deserved, and got pages and pages of detail on the entire process of creating a marine complete with names for the organs and their functions. So I'm sure the ability (as in knowledge) was first there when they wrote the first RT book, about Ogryns, Ratlings, Chaos and the like, but it was just more of a case of having limited time and resources to work with. And like I said, they probably never dreamed at that time that in 20 years fans would still be picking apart every word they wrote and discussing it

Re. the evolution of the Ogryns, I was noting the difference between random divergence (i.e. waiting for mutation to occur naturally, and then this being favoured by the environment) and selective breeding programs where you actively promote the breeding of a small selection of individuals which exhibit the desired attributes. This would be a much, much faster process than waiting for nature to take it's course. And obviously we don't really know the science involved in tailoring genes to create something like an Ogryn or a Ratling, but I would presume it would be a great deal faster still. So, the other point I was making that again these 'races' got 1 or 2 lines in the old books, saying they developed on 'high gravity worlds', and if GW were to examine them in more detail (as they did with Marines) then no doubt we would get a more plausible/accountable description of how they were created.

For god's sake, a new species developing in 30,000 years is completely plausible when dealing with another planet with a completely different enviroment.

Pacific wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Pacific wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:snip

snip

snip

snip

but we are not dealing with a random mutation, this isn't a shark suddenly developing 'hammerhead' parts (one of the major theories as to do with their evolution), this is one example of a very common speciation, the major/minor divergence. throughout history their have been multiple examples of rapid giantism and dwarfism in animals due to their enviroments.

if food is scarce naturally smaller members of the species will flurish (as seen in european dwarf elephant fossils)
if food is plentifull/predators are present naturally larger members of the species will flurish as they are able to defend themselves

It is entirely plausable (not even in a science fantasy setting) that is a penal colony of the roughest, most badass criminals in the human empire lost support from off world allowing for a prisoner take over, you now have a situation where nearly every male (and female) there is an alpha, the genetic best of the best when it comes to survival.

So its not like natural selection is picking of the below normal weak, it is picking off the far above than normal that are just slightly weaker than the others there. This is a natural selective breeding programme

Add to the rapid turn over in generations seen in harsh enviroments, ,the genetic characteristics for aggression, muscle gain and strenght will develop rapidly.

add all this to the fact that it is a science fantasy set on a completely different world, in no way like Earth then it is completly plausable.