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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 02:29:09
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
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Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 02:40:54
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Lurking Gaunt
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I saw this and lost pretty much all of the respect for the NYT that I had.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 02:42:51
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
On a boat, Trying not to die.
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Aw hell yes.
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Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 03:01:04
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Mysterious Techpriest
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You know, I just read the article in question, and I'm just not seeing where those incoherent, vitriolic blog posts are getting it from. They're bursting into flames and calling for the author's blood for quoting locals, who still said nothing of the sort they're claiming the author is responsible for saying? That's not even grasping at straws...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 03:29:32
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Mrs. Stompa wrote:I saw this and lost pretty much all of the respect for the NYT that I had.
I read the article in question and it's pretty clear that much of what is being leveled at the NYT as them "blaming the victim" actually is people misreading the article.
Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands — known as the Quarters — said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said.
The clothing part is not necessary. The statement that 'she would hang out with teenage boys at a playground' is a bit more relevant to the situation at hand(seeing as she may have known/trusted the person who drove her to the site where she was assaulted.) but still kind of a sketchy comment.
“Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?” said Ms. Harrison, one of a handful of neighbors who would speak on the record. “How can you have an 11-year-old child missing down in the Quarters?”
This is one of the biggest questions that I feel should be asked.
By the by this is the original article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us/09assault.html?_r=4
There was an op-ed article published, which has been glossed over quite a bit.
The story quickly climbed The Times’s “most emailed” list but not just because of the sensational facts of the crime involved. “Vicious Assault Shakes Texas Town,” published on Tuesday, reported the gang rape by 18 boys and men of an 11-year-old girl in the East Texas town of Cleveland.
The viral distribution of the story was, at least in part, because of the intense outrage it inspired among readers who thought the piece pilloried the victim.
My assessment is that the outrage is understandable. The story dealt with a hideous crime but addressed concerns about the ruined lives of the perpetrators without acknowledging the obvious: concern for the victim.
While the story appeared to focus on the community’s reaction to the crime, it was not enough to simply report that the community is principally concerned about the boys and men involved – as this story seems to do. If indeed that is the only sentiment to be found in this community – and I find that very hard to believe – it becomes important to report on that as well by seeking out voices of professional authorities or dissenting community members who will at least address, and not ignore, the plight of the young girl involved.
Let’s consider the particulars:
The story by James C. McKinley Jr. reported that residents of the town noted the girl dressed “older than her age,” wore makeup and fashions “more appropriate to a woman in her 20s” and hung out with older boys at the playground.
The story also quoted one resident, saying, “Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?”
Referring to some of the defendants in the case, the same resident was quoted saying, “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”
The fourth paragraph of the story laid out the basic themes of the story:
The case has rocked this East Texas community to its core and left many residents in the working-class neighborhood where the attack took place with unanswered questions. Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?
These elements, creating an impression of concern for the perpetrators and an impression of a provocative victim, led many readers to interpret the subtext of the story to be: she had it coming.
The Times, responding to a wave of complaints, issued a statement Wednesday saying, “Nothing in our story was in any way intended to imply that the victim was to blame. Neighbors’ comments about the girl, which we reported in the story, seemed to reflect concern about what they saw as a lack of supervision that may have left her at risk.”
The statement went on: “As for residents’ references to the accused having to ‘live with this for the rest of their lives,’ those are views we found in our reporting. They are not our reporter’s reactions, but the reactions of disbelief by townspeople over the news of a mass assault on a defenseless 11-year-old.”
Philip Corbett, standards editor for The Times, told me earlier today that the story focused on the reaction of community residents and that there was no intent to blame the victim. He added, “I do think in retrospect we could have done more to provide more context to make that clear.”
The Associated Press handled the story more deftly, I think. Its piece on the crime also noted the community view that the girl dressed provocatively and even the view of some that the girl may have been culpable somehow. But the AP also quoted someone in the community saying: “She’s 11 years old. It shouldn’t have happened. That’s a child. Somebody should have said, ‘What we are doing is wrong.’”
The Times, I have been told, is working on a followup story. I hope it delves more deeply into the subject because the March 8 story lacked a critical balancing element. If upon further reporting it is found that the community of Cleveland, Tex., universally believes that the 11-year-old girl was culpable in this crime, then that would be remarkable indeed. But if it proved to be the case, The Times should take care to interview mental health and legal experts who can provide context to a story about a vicious sex crime against a young girl.
http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/gang-rape-story-lacked-balance/
And it really, really could have been titled better...but that's a completely different story imo.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 03:51:24
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Um, yeah, even given only the selective quoting those blogposts read like G-baby essays, which is about as much scorn as I can heap on a piece of writing.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 04:07:23
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Took a look at the comments. . . Is that albatross possibly dakka's albatross? Hmmmmm.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 07:22:15
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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There's nothing like a good splutter of rage first thing in the morning to get you all revved up for the day.
Perhaps people should not take blogs so seriously. It's just one person's opinion, after all, posted on the web without any editorial process.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 09:17:03
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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rubiksnoob wrote:Took a look at the comments. . . Is that albatross possibly dakka's albatross? Hmmmmm.
Yes, I often comment on blog posts about American rape cases I've never heard of.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 09:30:16
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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That's a bit irresponsible IMO.
You really ought to think about getting off their balls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 09:36:14
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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Kilkrazy wrote:You really ought to think about getting off their balls.
Possibly a poor choice of words when talking about the gang rape of an 11 year old girl...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 17:53:17
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
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I didn't even read the story, I just saw the title
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Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 17:53:31
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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Kilkrazy wrote:That's a bit irresponsible IMO.
You really ought to think about getting off their balls.
I think he's being sarcastic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 18:00:17
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Cheesecat wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:That's a bit irresponsible IMO.
You really ought to think about getting off their balls.
I think he's being sarcastic.
So was KK.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 18:25:47
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that the NYT wasn't editorializing when it mentioned the way the victim dressed and her lack of supervision but instead reporting the reactions of the people in the neighborhood?
I must echo dogma's sentiment that these blogs are... well... shall we say "poorly researched and written?"
As much as I love blaming the victim, I think the subject matter of the thread takes some of the fun out of that particular meme.
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Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 18:54:04
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Blogs are stupid, mostly. Somebodt net raging over something blown waay out of proportion. Go outside and get some air. But don't dress older than your age.
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And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 19:04:51
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
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Just remember blog writers =/= journalists. They are more likely to be typists with an opinion. But that doesn't sound sexy.
I agree with Kanluwen & Monster Rain.
People jumpin on a band wagon. Original article is not linked to either in the OP!
But how the NYT can write : "He took her to a house on Travis Street where one of the other men charged, also 19, lived. There the girl was ordered to disrobe and was sexually assaulted by several boys in the bedroom and bathroom. She was told she would be beaten if she did not comply, the affidavit said." ...and be seen to be blaming the victim?
NYT states : Age of girl, coercion, rape, mentions associated people and clothing worn. And yet in the eyes of some bloggers this equates to the NTY journalist 'blaming' an ELEVEN year old for being raped. I suppose the next time I eat beef I'm causing pulsars to fly from the fairy world of Quargle VI - because that's the amount of logic they have.
Frequently that sort of information is required in a rape case for various reasons. Usually dealing with consent. However an eleven year old cannot consent to sex. Simple!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 21:55:01
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
University of St. Andrews
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I have to agree, the NYT wasn't blaming the victim, it was reporting what some people in the community had said. If you want to go crazy on people blaming the victim, go after the people who gave those quotes.
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"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Visit my nation on Nation States!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 22:35:28
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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[delete, wrong place, whoops]
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/12 22:35:52
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 22:50:52
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Phototoxin wrote:Just remember blog writers =/= journalists. They are more likely to be typists with an opinion. But that doesn't sound sexy.
So what makes a 'journalist'? Having a fancy desk and working for a prestigious corporation? NYT has had it's fair share of fake "journalists".
I did read the article in question, and while it seemed a little more on the side of the rapists "My grandson is a good boy, he'd never do anything of the kind" it also got the facts out there. But the facts were mostly one-sided, because the girl wasn't from the area, and it appears she wasn't as well known as the alleged rapists.
Didn't seem like it was a big deal.
Also, the first link cites to Feministing, a noted blog that takes the position that all men are rapists (or just biding their time), and probably should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 22:58:58
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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The article wasn't on anyone's side. That's the whole reason the blog reaction is so stupid.
The New York Times was, essentially, canvassing the community and taking reactions from the people.
They could have taken the easy way and just censored it removing the potentially offensive reactions from people, sure--but that's biased journalism at its finest.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 23:48:09
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
University of St. Andrews
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I can't help but say that if SOMEONE is offended and complaining about, the media is at least doing their job somewhat right.
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"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Visit my nation on Nation States!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 23:52:10
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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biccat wrote:
So what makes a 'journalist'?
Generally? A degree and credentials.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/12 23:53:55
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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biccat wrote:Phototoxin wrote:Just remember blog writers =/= journalists. They are more likely to be typists with an opinion. But that doesn't sound sexy.
So what makes a 'journalist'? Having a fancy desk and working for a prestigious corporation? NYT has had it's fair share of fake "journalists".
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Going to journalism school, learning a system of responsibility and ethics, working within a structure that maintains responsibility for the truth and ethics, and is publicly accountable for its and your actions, is a good approach to being a proper journalist.
Writing a blog does not make you a journalist. It just makes you someone with access to the internet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/13 00:08:56
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
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Kilkrazy wrote:Writing for a newspaper does not make you a journalist. It just makes you someone with access to a printer.
Fixed to address the point raised.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/13 00:34:10
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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George Spiggott wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Writing for a newspaper does not make you a journalist. It just makes you someone with access to a printer.
Fixed to address the point raised.
Papers don't just get printed, actually.
Newspapers go to great efforts to train journalists, check their stories, and have editorial policies, boards and legal checks.
Individuals writing on the internet can just take quotes out of context or alter them with impunity in order to convey false impressions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/13 00:57:39
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Lurking Gaunt
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I have to admit, I read the article but not the actual blog posts. I find blogs in general to be self indulgent and for the most part, stupid.
I find the article distasteful because it seems to focus on the rapists themselves with almost sympathy. And yes, I know they were quoting a lot of locals, but why nothing from the locals about the girl who was raped? Apart from blaming her mother, I mean.
This part in particular :
"Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands — known as the Quarters — said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said. "
Really irks me. It seems like the blame is being sholdered on the girl for dressing and acting inappropriately. Blaming an 11 year old girl with the old "She was asking for it" routine. The times even said this : Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?
I'm sorry....drawn into the act? How did those poor boys get drawn into such a thing? as if this girl seduced them, what with her 11 year old wiles and all.
The article just has a tone of sympathy for these men and boys who raped an 11 year old girl, with barely a mention for her welfare, future or well being.
ETA : a lot of what is bothering me is, in fact, the locals blaming the little girl. (One more reason for me to avoid Texas) But I think the Times could have presented both sides of the story more evenly.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/13 00:59:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/13 01:11:09
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Mrs. Stompa wrote:I have to admit, I read the article but not the actual blog posts. I find blogs in general to be self indulgent and for the most part, stupid.
I find the article distasteful because it seems to focus on the rapists themselves with almost sympathy. And yes, I know they were quoting a lot of locals, but why nothing from the locals about the girl who was raped? Apart from blaming her mother, I mean.
This part in particular :
"Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands — known as the Quarters — said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said. "
Really irks me. It seems like the blame is being shouldered on the girl for dressing and acting inappropriately. Blaming an 11 year old girl with the old "She was asking for it" routine. The times even said this : Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?
I'm sorry....drawn into the act? How did those poor boys get drawn into such a thing? as if this girl seduced them, what with her 11 year old wiles and all.
The article just has a tone of sympathy for these men and boys who raped an 11 year old girl, with barely a mention for her welfare, future or well being.
ETA : a lot of what is bothering me is, in fact, the locals blaming the little girl. (One more reason for me to avoid Texas) But I think the Times could have presented both sides of the story more evenly.
But there in lies the rub, Mrs. Stompa.
Even in this day and age, sexual assault is something where the "she was asking for it because she dressed slutty" attitude prevails.
It's sickening that it exists, but nobody wants to believe that their neighbor or their brother could ever have been 'lured' into such a positively heinous act.
It also doesn't help that the girl wasn't "one of them", so of course there's less concern for her well-being and her suffering, and far more concern about how their lives are impacted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/13 01:15:56
Subject: Re:Why must the New York Times...
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Lurking Gaunt
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Kanluwen wrote:Mrs. Stompa wrote:I have to admit, I read the article but not the actual blog posts. I find blogs in general to be self indulgent and for the most part, stupid.
I find the article distasteful because it seems to focus on the rapists themselves with almost sympathy. And yes, I know they were quoting a lot of locals, but why nothing from the locals about the girl who was raped? Apart from blaming her mother, I mean.
This part in particular :
"Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands — known as the Quarters — said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said. "
Really irks me. It seems like the blame is being shouldered on the girl for dressing and acting inappropriately. Blaming an 11 year old girl with the old "She was asking for it" routine. The times even said this : Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?
I'm sorry....drawn into the act? How did those poor boys get drawn into such a thing? as if this girl seduced them, what with her 11 year old wiles and all.
The article just has a tone of sympathy for these men and boys who raped an 11 year old girl, with barely a mention for her welfare, future or well being.
ETA : a lot of what is bothering me is, in fact, the locals blaming the little girl. (One more reason for me to avoid Texas) But I think the Times could have presented both sides of the story more evenly.
But there in lies the rub, Mrs. Stompa.
Even in this day and age, sexual assault is something where the "she was asking for it because she dressed slutty" attitude prevails.
It's sickening that it exists, but nobody wants to believe that their neighbor or their brother could ever have been 'lured' into such a positively heinous act.
It also doesn't help that the girl wasn't "one of them", so of course there's less concern for her well-being and her suffering, and far more concern about how their lives are impacted.
This is why I always fall back on my standard "I hate people." summation. Ah well, those people can blame that little girl all they want, so long as the rapists see justice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/13 01:16:27
Subject: Why must the New York Times...
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Fixture of Dakka
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Kilkrazy wrote:Newspapers go to great efforts to train journalists, check their stories, and have editorial policies, boards and legal checks.
Individuals writing on the internet can just take quotes out of context or alter them with impunity in order to convey false impressions.
What am I missing here? You know that the 'black and white' distinction between newspaper articles and internet blogs that you seem to be implying doesn't exist.
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