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Power blades are twin power weapons fitted to the forearms, enabling the wearer to use both hands freely. Powerblades confer +1 A and ignore armor saves.

On the charge, would the exarch have 5 attacks?

2 base
1 for power blades rule
1 having two close combat weapons
1 for charge

to me this is just like the twin blade falchions. and again, i have to go with no. its 2 base, +1 for the weapon pair, and 1 for the charge.

again, my point is that its "a pair" the definition of the weapon is "a pair confer +1A" not they are "2 ccw and confer +1A"

No; they are not a "pair of Power blades", simply "power blades" and the bit about them being twin weapons is in the fluff part, not the rules part.

The upgrade in the Armylist is also simply "power blades".

kenzosan wrote:just like the twin blade falchions.

It's exactly the same.

Wait for the GK FAQ to answer this.

DarknessEternal wrote:

kenzosan wrote:just like the twin blade falchions.

It's exactly the same.

no, it isn't; Rules-wise power blades are 1 power weapon that grants a +1 bonus attack.

Falchions are a pair of Force weapons that grant a +1 bonus attack(inherently to the falchions) and may grant a second because they are a Pair of weapons.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

kenzosan wrote:just like the twin blade falchions.

It's exactly the same.

no, it isn't; Rules-wise power blades are 1 power weapon that grants a +1 bonus attack.

Falchions are a pair of Force weapons that grant a +1 bonus attack(inherently to the falchions) and may grant a second because they are a Pair of weapons.

Powerblades is plural, it has to be at least two weapons. Furthermore it is modeled with a blade in each hand. How can it not be two close combat weapons?

"Twin power weapons>PWs>CCWs"
"A pair of Flachions>NFWs>PWs>CCWs"

Not exactly the same but by the same token a 'pair' isn't ever really used to describe two Single handed CCW (See Pg 42 BRB "Lightning claws are commonly used as matched pairs and consist of a number of blades, each a mini-power weapon"
"Power blades are twin power weapons fitted"

So if pair is a legtimate as "counts as two single handed CCWs" then surelywhen we are told there are two (twin) PWs then the same logic must be followed.

Implication that there is more than on PW=bonus for 2 SHCCWs.

crimsonmicc wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

kenzosan wrote:just like the twin blade falchions.

It's exactly the same.

no, it isn't; Rules-wise power blades are 1 power weapon that grants a +1 bonus attack.

Falchions are a pair of Force weapons that grant a +1 bonus attack(inherently to the falchions) and may grant a second because they are a Pair of weapons.

Powerblades is plural, it has to be at least two weapons. Furthermore it is modeled with a blade in each hand. How can it not be two close combat weapons?

Because the rules never says it is.

T-L Auto-cannons is plural but not 2 separate Auto-cannon shots. The rules state what those 2 Auto-cannons do and that is what they do. the Fluff even tells us that they are 2 Auto-cannons fire-linked to shoot at the same target.

Fluff =/= Rules.

Models =/= Rules.

crimsonmicc wrote:Powerblades is plural, it has to be at least two weapons. Furthermore it is modeled with a blade in each hand. How can it not be two close combat weapons?

How something is modelled is largely irrelevant to its rules. GW have a long and proud tradition of releasing models that don't actually match their rules.

In this particular situation, whether or not the powerblades are made up of more than one weapon is also irrelevant. In order to gain the +1A CCW bonus from them, he needs to have in his rules or those of the blades, a specification that the blades count as two close combat weapons. Without that, he could have a hundred of them, and it still wouldn't make any difference ruleswise.

He has one item (powerblades) which are (fluffwise) comprised of two blades. This is already represented by the +1 attack granted by the powerblades' rules entry... you don't get to double dip and take an extra attack because there are two of them.

Insaniak, where were you in the Falchion-discussion?

my point always has been this: no where in the rule does it ever say that 1 of these "twin powerblades" does it say that 1 counts as a 1 handed ccw. the wording for the actual rulling in the codex states that the twin powerblades grants +1 attack.

nowhere in the rules does it state that any weapon is 1-handed(excepting older codexes with an armory); the only time it matters if a Close combat weapon is 1 or 2 handed is when the rules state the weapon is two-handed.

main rule book FAQ wrote:Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the
purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

powerblades are power weapons, Power weapons are Close combat weapons; power blades are single-handed(but their is only 1 of them per the rules).

Falchions are force weapons, force weapons are close combat weapons, Falchions are single-handed weapons, and are "paried" which means 2 of them per their rules.

Despite it showing 2 blades, they make up a single weapon.
So, the +1A is built into the weapon, and they cannot be taken as a single blade, nor taken twice.

Think of it as taking a power blade, twice. You get the +1A for having 2 instances of power blade.

This makes it a total of 4 attacks on the charge:
2 base
1 for power blades rule, which counts as having two close combat weapons
1 for charge

Kommissar Kel wrote:
powerblades are power weapons, Power weapons are Close combat weapons; power blades are single-handed(but their is only 1 of them per the rules).

Falchions are force weapons, force weapons are close combat weapons, Falchions are single-handed weapons, and are "paried" which means 2 of them per their rules.

So what your argument hinges on is that "pair" means "two of them", but that "twin" does not?

No the Argument hinges on:

Rules that state Pair, means 2 of them.

Fluff that states twin doesn't freakin' matter.

Snikrot wears a pair of knives called "Mork's Teeth" which are listed as a single item and they do count as two close clombat weapons.

Twin-linked weapons are two weapons, that count as one, check their rules on BRB pg. 31, it says so right there. Also comparing apples to bananas here.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No the Argument hinges on:

Rules that state Pair, means 2 of them.

Fluff that states twin doesn't freakin' matter.

Page numbers?

For "pair" being two? There are none.
The also is no rule preventing you from using dice with all sixes or ones, as long as they are six sided.
And I'm pretty sure I can find a rule or FAQ allowing me to shoot an enemy model. With a real gun.

Why should a pair of weapons ever not be two weapons?
Would you allow a model to wield two pairs of nemesis falcions?
Or a pair of falcions and a pistol?
By your definition both would be possible, and both are obviously wrong for many reasons.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No the Argument hinges on:

Rules that state Pair, means 2 of them.

Fluff that states twin doesn't freakin' matter.

So in the case of Falchions it is all "hard" rules and in the case of Powerblades it is simply fluff? Really?

Look pretty much equivalent to me.

w/e the ruling it has to be the same. since plural powerblades is the same as saying falchions. pair and twin are the same thing. yes its weilding 2 weapons specifically meant to do cc, but the rules are counting them as the same weapon set, not 2 of the same weapon, the fact theres 2 is just fluff imo.

heres a question for ya all: why would holding 2 of these weapons confer a +1A when holding 1 does nothing as well as giving the additional +1A for 2 ccw rule?

i still believe that the rule is only +1A and non for dual ccw because you cannot have just 1 of these weapons.

Because the rules say so. +1 Attack does not say that it's the ccw attack bonus, so it's not. Permissive ruleset defaults to stupidly adding any bonus unless an exception is given. As it does not, it is a simple bonus attack from weapons. Matching pairs of weapons are better than non-matching weapons, see any powerfist/stormhammer/lightning claw wielder.

Also check Snikrot in the ork codex: He has a pair of weapons as single item that are two seperate CCW.
There are no special rules for "sets of", "pairs of" or "twin-"weapons. There is one for wielding two weapons. As long as you are wielding two weapons, you get +1 Attack unless explicitly told otherwise. In Addition whatever other bonus they confer.
I'm just stupefied that no one cares about all the +1 I, +1 St, +2 I, +2 Str, +2A weapons out there, worded exactly the same, but trows a temper tantrum as soon as there is a weapon that confers a single bonus attack.

Also you conclusion answers my questions in my last post with "yes".
[quote}Would you allow a model to wield two pairs of nemesis falcions?
Or a pair of falcions and a pistol?

Jidmah wrote:Because the rules say so. +1 Attack does not say that it's the ccw attack bonus, so it's not. Permissive ruleset defaults to stupidly adding any bonus unless an exception is given. As it does not, it is a simple bonus attack from weapons. Matching pairs of weapons are better than non-matching weapons, see any powerfist/stormhammer/lightning claw wielder.

check the rules, it says no where that they are 2 ccw. i mean specifically. they are called a "pair of ccw" or "twin ccw" they call it 1 weapon.

Also check Snikrot in the ork codex: He has a pair of weapons as single item that are two seperate CCW.
There are no special rules for "sets of", "pairs of" or "twin-"weapons. There is one for wielding two weapons. As long as you are wielding two weapons, you get +1 Attack unless explicitly told otherwise. In Addition whatever other bonus they confer.
I'm just stupefied that no one cares about all the +1 I, +1 St, +2 I, +2 Str, +2A weapons out there, worded exactly the same, but trows a temper tantrum as soon as there is a weapon that confers a single bonus attack.

snikrot specifies that they are 2 ccw.

Also you conclusion answers my questions in my last post with "yes".

Would you allow a model to wield two pairs of nemesis falcions?
Or a pair of falcions and a pistol?

how are you weilding 2 falchions AND a pistol? thats 3 hands.

In the army list, you specifically buy a pair of falchions. Powerblades just say 'equipped with powerblades'

In my opinion is that the +1 attack stated in the Eldar Codex is implied to be the bonus for having two close combat weapons.

nixti wrote:In my opinion is that the +1 attack stated in the Eldar Codex is implied to be the bonus for having two close combat weapons.

Then your opinion is wrong. Because unless it specifically states that the +1 attack is for having two close combat attacks, then it is not that same bonus.

The issue here is that you do not actually buy powerblades as a pair. Falchions get away with two extra attacks total because you specifically buy a pair of them. Not so in the case of powerblades.

The wording in the codex implies that they are purchased as a set and provide a +1 to attack. Yes it is not the same bonus but its effectively the same thing.

No, it's really not.

+1A and a bonus attack in close combat are two different things.

Are you messing with me or what?

Either way taking the option provides an extra attack. In this case with the warp spiders it doesn't matter if it's from two weapons fluff-wise or crunch-wise since they don't have the option of actually paying for two ccw's. All it does is give the Exarch 3 base attacks instead of 2.

Personally I feel that the Falchions should be used in the same manor but that is neither here nor there...

nixti wrote:Are you messing with me or what?

No. It's a fairly large difference.

Personally I feel that the Falchions should be used in the same manor but that is neither here nor there...

And you'd be wrong there, because falchions are bought as a pair.