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Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard? Why not from a new 'chapter' or an offshoot of one, and become an Astartes Chapter? If each Cadian shock trooper were to become a Marine, it would be the biggest chapter, and possibly be able to take the fight to Chaos.

So why isnt Cadia an Astartes Planet?

Because... good question actually, I expect there is a reason, but nothing springs to mind, I always wondered why Chaos doesn't just virus bomb the place.

Matrim wrote:Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

Yep.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard?

Because those "crummy, flashlight wielding Imperial Guard" are the most highly trained, disciplined, and effective troops in the Imperium outside of the Astartes.
They don't need hand-tooled ammunition, they don't need power armour, and they don't need to lose their humanity to defend it. Cadia is, even after the full bloody might of the 13th Black Crusade, still a mostly Imperial planet. There are still Cadian fortress cities holding out and launching counterattacks as of the 'end' that we saw for the campaign.

Why not from a new 'chapter' or an offshoot of one, and become an Astartes Chapter? If each Cadian shock trooper were to become a Marine, it would be the biggest chapter,

That's not how the Astartes process works. Not every individual, even if able to pass the basic indoctrination and trials, will be able to accept the genetic enhancements that effectively make the Astartes the demi-gods they are.

and possibly be able to take the fight to Chaos.

Why would you want to take "the fight to Chaos"? Crossing over into the Eye of Terror means crossing over into the Warp, where reality becomes unbound and things get all fethed up.

So why isn't Cadia an Astartes Planet?

Why should it be? The Cadians do a fine job for the most part.
Every day on Cadia is a battle, every week a war, every month a campaign. And the Gate still has yet to completely fall into the hands of the Ruinous Powers.

For when things get really bad though, there's a group of 18-20 Astartes Chapters devoted entirely to helping curtail the Traitor Legions coming out of the Eye of Terror.
The major Founding Legions as well will come to Cadia's aid when the Cadians put out the call.

Cadia gets the aid of the Astartes when need be, in the 13th Black Crusade some 20 Astartes Chapters came to their aid. "Making" a chapter for them would be rather unnecessary considering how many chapters are based around the Eye of Terror.

Cadia isn't alone in its defense, it's part of a defensive ring operated by the Imperium. The primary duty of the Cadian Defense forces is to defend Cadia, which is exactly what they do.

Plus I don't think the Imperium/the marines themselves would allow Cadia to operate a private Chapter, the only other option therefore would be to have an Ultramar-type situation where the Chapter runs Cadia instead of the vice versa, which I can't see the rulers of Cadia accepting.

Matrim wrote:Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard? Why not from a new 'chapter' or an offshoot of one, and become an Astartes Chapter? If each Cadian shock trooper were to become a Marine, it would be the biggest chapter, and possibly be able to take the fight to Chaos.

Because Astartes are not trusted because of Horus Heresy. And even so, there is no need for that because Cadians are tough like Space Marines when it comes to combat.

So why isnt Cadia an Astartes Planet?

The same reason Holly Terra is not an Astartes planet - they are not trusted enough.
But still, near Cadia you can find several Navy dockyard systems. As well as several Adaptus Astartes training planets. So even in mightiest attack - Cadia is not alone.

Matrim wrote:Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard?

Because despite the utterly idiotic beliefs of the collective stupidity known as the the internet, the Imperial guard are neither crummy nor do they wield flashlights.

Melissia wrote:

Matrim wrote:Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard?

Because despite the utterly idiotic beliefs of the collective stupidity known as the the internet, the Imperial guard are neither crummy nor do they wield flashlights.

So true, the Imperial Guard are the real heroes in the Imperium. Each one goes into battle with nothing but a flack jacket, a lasgun and his trusty helmet and yet still steamrollers over the Imperiums enemies. He may not have the speed of a Striking Scorpion, the Strength of an Astartes or super advanced beating stick like a Necron but he still wins out over the iinfintiely more power enemies of mankind.
There are maybe a 1000 Astartes Chapter, they can't be everywhere at once all the time. Why do people think the Imperial Guard are so horribly bad and inferior when about half of the Imperiums day to day confrontations are won by the ordinary human defeinding his home and his Emperor? Everything to suggest the Imperial Guard are a great fighitng force is there in the books and codices, and yet people STILL form illogical conclusions. The bandwagon is not a place where you want to be.

The thing to remember is that we're talking about Cadia here.

These guys train from childhood on to fight traitor Astartes, Daemons, and whatever other crap might show up on their world.

They've got autocannons out the wazoo for dealing with bigger foes, they've got blessed ammunition stockpiled, and they have entire worlds that are dedicated to doing nothing but providing the Cadians with ammunition to defend their planet.

And let's not forget the Kasrkin. The hardest men the Imperium fields that aren't wearing Powered Armour.

I still say stormtroopers are better. Just as experienced as kasrkin, but they have the benefit of the schola progenium ontop of it (and sisters are better still) as far as front line soldiery goes.

But Cadians are not lacking in either skill, courage, or equipment. Brute strength and cunning is useful, but not too helpful when it's buried under munitions!

For one sort of saddening reason; Imperial guard are cheaper to produce than a space marine in terms of resources. i do suppose that producing billions of troops does cost a lot but showing a child how to work a lasgun, basic military manuevers and some battlefield experience is simply less of a cost to the imperium than the training and upkeep of a space marine.

Melissia wrote:I still say stormtroopers are better. Just as experienced as kasrkin, but they have the benefit of the schola progenium ontop of it (and sisters are better still) as far as front line soldiery goes.

Different strokes for different folks. But for what it's worth, Kasrkin are meant to be a touch more 'multirole' than the average Stormtrooper.

Stormtroopers are becoming more and more specialized, in terms of the fluff description. The descriptions we get of them now make them less of the 'hardcore heavy line infantry' and more 'special forces, engaging in specialist tactics'.
Kasrkin can operate in that specialist role--but they're also organized in such a way that they've got plenty of firepower and equipment to operate as an entire regiment of just Kasrkin, with Kasrkin operated heavy weapon teams, tank crews, etc.

But Cadians are not lacking in either skill, courage, or equipment. Brute strength and cunning is useful, but not too helpful when it's buried under munitions!

Huzzah to that!

There are various reasons why they don't mass produce Space Marines, as effective and unstoppable a huge force has proven to be.

Because the Guard does well enough? Besides, it's much easier to have god knows how many hundreds of millions of Guardsmen defending Cadia than forcing even a 1000 Space Marines to stay there. Space Marines aren't garrison forces, they are rapid strike forces, and using them as a garrison would only be wasting their talents.

And, as the other's mentioned, the IG are hard, BAMFs, the Cadians especially. The lasgun is a highly effective weapon against people not in armor (aka, Chaos cultisits), and the Guard has heavier guns for dealing with other targets. Seriously. Taking a Kasr would probably make Stalingrad or Berlin look like a picnic luncheon.

Taking a Kasr would make Stalingrad look like storming a public pool.

Bear in mind, at one point early on the Kasrs were laid out like regular cities.

The first Black Crusades came along, and steamrolled them. Cadia then decided "Nope, not again" and rebuilt their cities. Each city is built like a maze and is designed to be held for months, if not years, at a time.
Each section can be shut down and access controlled.

It's impossible for 1000 marines to simply defend the gate, They can't amass more than 1000 in such a high profile location due to the codex (Thanks a bunch Roboute, you rock!) so a Guard regiment is the next logical choice. (You can have millions upon millions).

Also, there are several chapters established around the Eye to permanently guard it. However, some of those chapters have gone renegade (mentioned in the Chaos Codex IIRC? Someone correct me if I'm wrong)

Also, relying on the Astartes is poor form. Remember the Badab War? No guard regiments to guard the Maelstrom, and the Astartes guarding the region all went rogue.

None of the Chapters that have been established to Guard the Eye have gone renegade.

They've had a few members go 'renegade', but a declaration of renegade can mean anything. It doesn't mean that they go and start piling skulls while spewing plagues and casting sex spells.

'Renegades' can be Marines that go slightly mad and gather up pilgrims to launch their own fight against the Eye of Terror.

There were Guard Regiments to defend the Maelstrom.
But when Huron took over as the 'Tyrant of Badab', he took them with him as they had a long history of working together and the men of those regiments pretty much began worshiping him.

Those weren't Guard Regiments, they were PDFs.

I remember vaguely about a chapter that sacrificed an inquisitor when she came to investigate the chapter (they had recruited from a feral world where they performed "heretical" traditions).

I think they were a chapter established near the Eye to help defend it, but I'm not completely sure, but I do know that the entire chapter went rogue. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly that they were defending the Eye and they were simply a regular chapter that went rogue.

Tyrant's Legion makes mention of it being "a mixture of PDF and Guard that had been around the Maelstrom".

FW fluff trumps you

I don't remember anything about that fluff, but that kind of thing happens all the time. The hardline Inquisitors even think that the Ultramarines practice heretical shenanigans.

Bah.. I read it as the PDF of the planets that Huron gathered and force into conscription, hence the lack of regular gear and the use of things like weaponized shuttles etc.. Looks like I need to reread my IA9!

Anyway, I can't remember where I read that background of those marines... So if anyone knows, much appreciated!

Snarky wrote:Bah.. I read it as the PDF of the planets that Huron gathered and force into conscription, hence the lack of regular gear and the use of things like weaponized shuttles etc.. Looks like I need to reread my IA9!

I think they used things like the weaponized Argus simply because it was effective against the pirates and insurgents they primarily fought.
They did have a Navy contingent though, so it makes more sense when you look at the Argus as the primary and the Navy contingent as the 'heavy hitters'.

Anyway, I can't remember where I read that background of those marines... So if anyone knows, much appreciated!

Like I said, it's been used a few times.

Astartes forces deployed in the 13th Black Crusade:



I don't think Cadia has to worry about a lack of Astartes to protect it. Largest force of them deployed since the Heresy.

Assuming each formation listed is a Codex Company (unlikely), we'd get 28,300 Marines. I'd say ~28k Marines is a fairly accurate estimate for how many Imperial Marines were deployed in the 13th Black Crusade.

That is a crap ton of Marines.

And it's still not enough.

Just goes to show that it's the Imperial Guard and Navy that are the true guardians of the Imperium!

The thing to remember about that 28k Marines is that they weren't ever really deployed in one spot. They fought from the Eastern Fringe all the way to the Cadian Gate.
They were everywhere.

Even if they WERE in one spot they still wouldn't have been enough without the Guard, Sisters, and Navy.

I'm aware, and I'm pretty sure I didn't say they would have been enough.

I was just making the point that to make it seem like the Marines really "didn't do anything" when they were, in fact, operating across such a vast space is kinda underselling them.

I mean that Ultramarines Honor Company boarded the Planet Killer and crippled it.

Kanluwen wrote:The thing to remember about that 28k Marines is that they weren't ever really deployed in one spot. They fought from the Eastern Fringe all the way to the Cadian Gate.
They were everywhere.

But that's a list of Space Marine Chapters deployed against the 13th Black Crusade. If they're fighting the 13th Black Crusade, why would they be out on the Eastern Fringe?

It's not that I'm saying they were all in one place at one time, it's just that they were likely mostly in the Cadian Gate area, either on the gorund or in space.

In short, the Cadians almost single-handedly fought off Black Crusade after Black Crusade, which not only includes uncounted legions of indentured traitor guardsmen and mutants, but the full might of many Chaos legions, including the Black Legion itself.
Who needs the Astartes, I say?

ChrisWWII wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The thing to remember about that 28k Marines is that they weren't ever really deployed in one spot. They fought from the Eastern Fringe all the way to the Cadian Gate.
They were everywhere.

But that's a list of Space Marine Chapters deployed against the 13th Black Crusade. If they're fighting the 13th Black Crusade, why would they be out on the Eastern Fringe?

It's not that I'm saying they were all in one place at one time, it's just that they were likely mostly in the Cadian Gate area, either on the ground or in space.

Because the deployments during the 13th Black Crusade did all kinds of weird things.

And no, they weren't "mostly in the Cadian Gate area". They were in the Cadian system and its nearby systems.