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That;s what I mean by 'in the Cadian Gate area'. In or around the Cadian Gate itself, the surrounding bastion worlds, and the space lanes in between.

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers are becoming more and more specialized, in terms of the fluff description. The descriptions we get of them now make them less of the 'hardcore heavy line infantry' and more 'special forces, engaging in specialist tactics'.
Kasrkin can operate in that specialist role--but they're also organized in such a way that they've got plenty of firepower and equipment to operate as an entire regiment of just Kasrkin, with Kasrkin operated heavy weapon teams, tank crews, etc.

Not to get too technical, but if you read the latest IG codex, well, Kasrkins don't actually exist!!! At best the minis can be used to represent IG Stormtroopers, but nothing else.....

Kasrkin exist. They're just limited to Cadia now, instead of being an IG army choice.

Er.....what? Soo, where do you play them, and which rules do you use?

Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Stormtroopers are becoming more and more specialized, in terms of the fluff description. The descriptions we get of them now make them less of the 'hardcore heavy line infantry' and more 'special forces, engaging in specialist tactics'.
Kasrkin can operate in that specialist role--but they're also organized in such a way that they've got plenty of firepower and equipment to operate as an entire regiment of just Kasrkin, with Kasrkin operated heavy weapon teams, tank crews, etc.

Not to get too technical, but if you read the latest IG codex, well, Kasrkins don't actually exist!!! At best the minis can be used to represent IG Stormtroopers, but nothing else.....

Yeah, which was asinine of GW.

But hey. It's not like they haven't removed things before.

I just consider my Stormtroopers to be Kasrkin doing a specific role.

Delephont wrote:Er.....what? Soo, where do you play them, and which rules do you use?

You can't field a unit called Kasrkin in a Codex Imperial Guard army, but in fluff, Kasrkin still exist on Cadia. Nothing got rid of them. Their Codex entry got deleted, but that doesn't make them nonexistent any more than the fact that the non-existant codex entry for the Emperor or Imperial Knights make THEM not exist.

I use Stormtrooper rules for Kasrkin, because the Kasrkin models are much more awesome than the Stormtrooper ones.

I see, well fair play.....I use Kasrkin as Stormtroopers for the same reason as you.

Delephont wrote:I see, well fair play.....I use Kasrkin as Stormtroopers for the same reason as you.

I should also add that Kasrkin aren't necessarily going to always be wearing carapace armor.
There's been mention of Kasrkin wearing camo cloaks and light armor, standard gear, etc.

"Kasrkin" doesn't seem to necessarily to mean a single, particular unit type--but rather an individual trained to a certain extent.

Yes, as I can tell Kasrkin are the elite of the Cadian defense force, and are used for a variety of purpouses, be it heavy infantry, sneaking about, or any other creative uses CREEEEEEEEEEED can come up for them.

Edit: Defense Force decapitalized.

No. Cadian "Defense Force" doesn't exist.

There's the Cadian "Interior Guard" and the Cadian Shock Troops.

Semantics. I'll decapitalize the 'Defense Force', and leave it vague. The point is, they are the elite of the forces defending Cadia, and are used as such.

Melissia wrote:

Matrim wrote:Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard?

Because despite the utterly idiotic beliefs of the collective stupidity known as the the internet, the Imperial guard are neither crummy nor do they wield flashlights.

Damn right. Lasgun is more powerful assault gun that anything we have today. Just because it has a hard time penetrating SM armor doesn't mean that it's weak, and that Guardsman are poorly trained solders - it's varying from world to world. And Cadia is on the top of that - the best of the best comes from Cadia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:There are various reasons why they don't mass produce Space Marines, as effective and unstoppable a huge force has proven to be.

No kidding? Just look at Horus Heresy...

ChrisWWII wrote:Semantics. I'll decapitalize the 'Defense Force', and leave it vague. The point is, they are the elite of the forces defending Cadia, and are used as such.

By "the elite of the forces defending Cadia", I'll assume you're referring to the Kasrkin.

Cadia has nothing like a PDF that you'd see on any other world. Their "PDF" are full-fledged Guard foundings that never leave the planet.

It's why they're called the "Interior Guard".

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Matrim wrote:Cadia lies closest to the eye of terror, and (according to Lexicanum) is the most fortified and Militaristic World in the Imperium.

So why do they stick to crummy flashlight wielding Imperial Guard?

Because despite the utterly idiotic beliefs of the collective stupidity known as the the internet, the Imperial guard are neither crummy nor do they wield flashlights.

Damn right. Lasgun is more powerful assault gun that anything we have today. Just because it has a hard time penetrating SM armor doesn't mean that it's weak, and that Guardsman are poorly trained solders - it's varying from world to world. And Cadia is on the top of that - the best of the best comes from Cadia.

I think we can use a little example to add to your point, Coa.

One on one, a guardsman, no matter how well trained, doesn't have much of a chance against a space marine. The guardsman is weaker, slower and has weaker weapons and armour.
However, with the Imperial Guard, there's no such thing as a one-on-one fight. Confronted with a hundred lasguns pumping shots at him, suddenly it's the Adeptus Astartes warrior who's chances are looking slim.
Weight of numbers if nothing else makes the Guard superior to the SM.

Melissia wrote:Even if they WERE in one spot they still wouldn't have been enough without the Guard, Sisters, and Navy.

Why are you think that is not enough? Ultramarines held Macragge with merchant fleet and around 300 marines ( not sure about the number ) before Battlefleet Tempestus arrived to help them. And that was against entire Tyranid invasion force...

The Cadian Interior Guard is vastly more powerful than any Astartes chapter.

People forget there's a maximum of 1,000 marines in a chapter. Cadia has tens of thousands of Leman Russ Battle tanks. The power of a single astartes chapter is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
One on one, a guardsman, no matter how well trained, doesn't have much of a chance against a space marine. The guardsman is weaker, slower and has weaker weapons and armour.
However, with the Imperial Guard, there's no such thing as a one-on-one fight. Confronted with a hundred lasguns pumping shots at him, suddenly it's the Adeptus Astartes warrior who's chances are looking slim.
Weight of numbers if nothing else makes the Guard superior to the SM.

Exactly.
"Quantity is a quality of it's own!"
Translation: Guard is only effective in numbers. In battle Guardsman are almost never alone, and Cadia has several Regiments always standing by t oassist + PDF...
No need for SM there...

Kanluwen wrote:
By "the elite of the forces defending Cadia", I'll assume you're referring to the Kasrkin.

Cadia has nothing like a PDF that you'd see on any other world. Their "PDF" are full-fledged Guard foundings that never leave the planet.

It's why they're called the "Interior Guard".

Yeah, the antecedent of 'they' was 'Kasrkin'. I know that Cadia relies on basically full time IG regiments dedicated to defending the planet. Cadia is a rather important place, and the Imperium isn't an idiot. They aren't half-assing it on Cadia, no sir.

Don't forget the power of a Space Marine Chapter is not just the power of the Marines, but also of their planning and tactics. A Space Marine force can devastate a force many times it size with rapid strikes that cripple the enemies logistical support, command structure, etc. Yeah, the Marines lose in a straight out war of attrition, that's why they try and avoid wars of attrition in favor of rapid strikes at key points.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Even if they WERE in one spot they still wouldn't have been enough without the Guard, Sisters, and Navy.

Why are you think that is not enough? Ultramarines held Macragge with merchant fleet and around 300 marines ( not sure about the number ) before Battlefleet Tempestus arrived to help them. And that was against entire Tyranid invasion force...

No they didn't. They had the assistance of their own PDF and a titan legion.

And just to add to all of the other reasons everyone gave for why this can never happen; there is this fact: Gene-seed is a Finite Resource.

They can't just turn every Cadian shook troop into a Marine, they have no where near that much.
There aren't even as many Space Marines in the entire galaxy as there are Cadian Shook Troops.
There are over 500 Regiments of Cadian Shook Troops, so based on the numbers given for the Cadian 8th, there are over 4 million Cadian infantry based on Cadia.

While there are only roughly 1 Million (loyal) Space Marines in the entire galaxy


The Astartes represent an Incredibly powerful, but small part of the Imperium's resources for Defense and War.

And that 4 million is a light number, probably far too conservative.

Melissia wrote:And that 4 million is a light number, probably far too conservative.

I agree, some sources put Cadian regiments at 613 or more

Turning the Cadians into Astartes would be like taking all the veteran officers out of a platoon. They provide invauluable experience.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Even if they WERE in one spot they still wouldn't have been enough without the Guard, Sisters, and Navy.

Why are you think that is not enough? Ultramarines held Macragge with merchant fleet and around 300 marines ( not sure about the number ) before Battlefleet Tempestus arrived to help them. And that was against entire Tyranid invasion force...

No they didn't. They had the assistance of their own PDF and a titan legion.

Titans had been rip to shreds, PDF all killed and in the end only 1'st company stood against the coming swarm. They fell in the end, but shows the true might of Astartes. I don't say anything about the rest ( Guard, PDF, Sisters and Navy ), of course the Space Marines could't hold the Imperium together without their help. I am just saying that Space Marines are little tougher than the rest of them when it comes to defense.

When you have a company of Devastartors to defend one part - you suddenly have hundreds of solders to use elsewhere...

Brother Coa. You are wrong about the battle for Macragge. The Ultramarines had most of the 1st Company, the entire 2nd Company plus elements of the 1st, 5th and 10th Companies and the entirety of the Ultramar PDF.

In space they had Starnova class orbital weapon stations, dozens of warships, the Ultramarines mighty Battle Barges, heavy cruisers of the Ultramar Defence Fleet, a ragtag collection of lightly-armed merchantmen and privateers, and the requisition of every single space-worthy vessel fit for combat.

This was a whole lot more then 300 marines and a ragtag merchant fleet.

The marines are great fighters, i mean their are considered Superhumans. But they will never have enough personal to maintain the IoM. The Guard provide the bulk of the IoM defenders repealing the enemy with concentrated volleys of fire and the roar of the battle cannons of their tanks. With them stands the Navy who is safeguarding space and ensuring the Guards supply lines.

As for the Kaskrin, those guys are beastly, in the Eisenhorn trilogy they engaged a DEAMONHOST in hand to hand to defend the inquisitor. They died, but did what all Guardsmen should d, Die on their feet, with a gun in their hands, fighting to the last breath holding the line.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Brother Coa. You are wrong about the battle for Macragge. The Ultramarines had most of the 1st Company, the entire 2nd Company plus elements of the 1st, 5th and 10th Companies and the entirety of the Ultramar PDF.

In space they had Starnova class orbital weapon stations, dozens of warships, the Ultramarines mighty Battle Barges, heavy cruisers of the Ultramar Defence Fleet, a ragtag collection of lightly-armed merchantmen and privateers, and the requisition of every single space-worthy vessel fit for combat.

This was a whole lot more then 300 marines and a ragtag merchant fleet.

Thank you a lot, I can't find anywhere the Imperial army sheet for this battle. I only found that they used Battle-barges, orbital defense platforms, 1 Titan Legion, PDF, entire 1'st company and 3'rd company. Still, only the 1'st company was at North Polar fortress to do legendary last stand. And the way that they do it, was the way Space Marines are represent in the point of defense. If you can have even 50 Space Marines to defend one position - you then have hundreds of solders to use elsewhere since SM are hard to crush while on defense.

The 1st Company slowly fell back into the polar fortress, they didn't just sit there waiting for the 'Nids. Cold Steel Ridge was the key battle in the Macragge campaign, and there they had the full might of the Ultramar PDF, including at least one Baneblade.

ChrisWWII wrote:The 1st Company slowly fell back into the polar fortress, they didn't just sit there waiting for the 'Nids. Cold Steel Ridge was the key battle in the Macragge campaign, and there they had the full might of the Ultramar PDF, including at least one Baneblade.

And few Titans...

And a few Titans, but fat lot of good that did them.

Brother Coa wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Brother Coa. You are wrong about the battle for Macragge. The Ultramarines had most of the 1st Company, the entire 2nd Company plus elements of the 1st, 5th and 10th Companies and the entirety of the Ultramar PDF.

In space they had Starnova class orbital weapon stations, dozens of warships, the Ultramarines mighty Battle Barges, heavy cruisers of the Ultramar Defence Fleet, a ragtag collection of lightly-armed merchantmen and privateers, and the requisition of every single space-worthy vessel fit for combat.

This was a whole lot more then 300 marines and a ragtag merchant fleet.

Thank you a lot, I can't find anywhere the Imperial army sheet for this battle. I only found that they used Battle-barges, orbital defense platforms, 1 Titan Legion, PDF, entire 1'st company and 3'rd company. Still, only the 1'st company was at North Polar fortress to do legendary last stand. And the way that they do it, was the way Space Marines are represent in the point of defense. If you can have even 50 Space Marines to defend one position - you then have hundreds of solders to use elsewhere since SM are hard to crush while on defense.

Here is my source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_for_Macragge

Really enjoy this website. Has a lot of good info.