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Hi there!

I've been thinking on what new units could CSM get in their next Codex, and I thought about snipers. They're not the most characteristic CSM unit, but as they might fit in some legions (Alpha Legion, for example) I wanted to brainstorm a bit.

Do you think there could be such thing? Not all Chaos servants like close combat, such as Tzeentch. Following the Rubric Marines concept of firing cursed ammo, tzeentchian snipers could fire cursed rounds that feel their targets and try to hit them (I remeber a similar concept on some kind of Dark Eldar ammo). Other snipers could be nurglish, shooting tainted rounds for spreading the plague from afar, or snaaleshi (AFAIK, Slaanesh servants like shooting as much as CC, but I suppose they wouldn't use silencers; there was an autocannon in DoW2: Retribution which made a pleasant noise for Noise Marines when firing). Khorne, obviously, wouldn't like snipers...

What are your opinions? Do you think they could be factible (even for the next CSM codex)? Would you like them? Please comment! ^^

Well even among the Imperium's Space Marines only Scouts are Snipers. It may work to have non-Khorne snipers who are new initiates to the Warband or the like.

I like the idea of nurgle snipers! Might just have to go convert some now...

tehbarry wrote:I like the idea of nurgle snipers! Might just have to go convert some now...

Then you may find this useful: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/25325-.html
It's a converted nurglish sniper here in DakkaDakka
So, do you think they could be factible as a new unit for CSM?

I'm not completely sure if they will be in the next codex, but you do have some good points with Tzeentch snipers. I would definitely count them as a possible new model though, but that might just be me wishing for some cool nurgle units...

EDIT: It might be possible that there could be renegade chaos snipers in the imperial armour books though... It would be more likely if forgeworld came with an update for the renegade imperial guard list and then it had something like renegade squats...

tehbarry wrote:I'm not completely sure if they will be in the next codex, but you do have some good points with Tzeentch snipers. I would definitely count them as a possible new model though, but that might just be me wishing for some cool nurgle units...

EDIT: It might be possible that there could be renegade chaos snipers in the imperial armour books though... It would be more likely if forgeworld came with an update for the renegade imperial guard list and then it had something like renegade squats...

I hope they are in the next Codex... :3 Glad you liked my idea! Did you see the link?
I have some ideas for the Marks (added bonus after the usual Mark bonus)

- Mark of Tzeentch: according to the fluff I posted before, the rounds can manouvre in mid-air searching for their victims. As a result, MoT snipers could ignore cover saves (as that DE ammo did).

- Mark of Nurgle: poisoned rounds which would wound on 4+ or even 2+. As the MoN sniper purpose would be to spread disease, in the next enemy turn, each unit wounded by this weapon should roll 1D6 (only 1D6 per unit, not per wound). 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: the unit suffers a new wound . The effect could remain in the following turns until a 1-3 is got.

- Mark of Slaanesh: I think a MoS sniper would like to have a noisy sniper rifle; this could be achieved by giving the bullet special marks on its surface and giving it a great speed (breaking the sound barrier, but I suppose all bullets break it already xD). As a result, the objective is knocked down when the bullet hits, by a strong sonic explosion (something like a thunder). That unit would suffer some kind of disruption: for example, that a hit unit should have to move in their next turn as if they were on difficult terrain. As that "sonic thunder" could damage vehicles too, it would have a +1 in armor penetration.

IronChaos wrote:

tehbarry wrote:I'm not completely sure if they will be in the next codex, but you do have some good points with Tzeentch snipers. I would definitely count them as a possible new model though, but that might just be me wishing for some cool nurgle units...

EDIT: It might be possible that there could be renegade chaos snipers in the imperial armour books though... It would be more likely if forgeworld came with an update for the renegade imperial guard list and then it had something like renegade squats...

I hope they are in the next Codex... :3 Glad you liked my idea! Did you see the link?
I have some ideas for the Marks (added bonus after the usual Mark bonus)

- Mark of Tzeentch: according to the fluff I posted before, the rounds can manouvre in mid-air searching for their victims. As a result, MoT snipers could ignore cover saves (as that DE ammo did).

- Mark of Nurgle: poisoned rounds which would wound on 4+ or even 2+. As the MoN sniper purpose would be to spread disease, in the next enemy turn, each unit wounded by this weapon should roll 1D6 (only 1D6 per unit, not per wound). 1-3: nothing happens. 4-6: the unit suffers a new wound . The effect could remain in the following turns until a 1-3 is got.

- Mark of Slaanesh: I think a MoS sniper would like to have a noisy sniper rifle; this could be achieved by giving the bullet special marks on its surface and giving it a great speed (breaking the sound barrier, but I suppose all bullets break it already xD). As a result, the objective is knocked down when the bullet hits, by a strong sonic explosion (something like a thunder). That unit would suffer some kind of disruption: for example, that a hit unit should have to move in their next turn as if they were on difficult terrain. As that "sonic thunder" could damage vehicles too, it would have a +1 in armor penetration.

In my opinion, Nurgle Snipers should grant alteast a 3+ poison, since sniper autowounds on a 4+ anyway. And to simplify it a bit, make the special "disease" test occur the after "shots" have been resolved.
For Slaanesh, I like the braking the sound barrier/sonic boom idea, but I think the difficult terrain thing would be kinda overpowered as well as the +1 Armour Penetration. I would make it so that wounds cause Instant Death, like Slaaneshi Daemon weapons, or cause the pinning test that comes with the sniper rule to be taken on a -1 or even a -2 modifier to show how the unit has been stunned by the shockwave.

I like your ideas and I already have some very nice sniper rifles I could use for the modelling effort.
Add this to the list of projects I might take on when I get to it

Using the rules for noise marines you could ironically make something a bit like a sniper unit. I guess they would not be as noisy... so a silenced noise marine? go figure

tarnish wrote:Using the rules for noise marines you could ironically make something a bit like a sniper unit. I guess they would not be as noisy... so a silenced noise marine? go figure

I'd denounce you as a heretic for that notion, but it'd be redundant

Also I love the Tzneetch sniper idea posted afew up, although Im not sure how many points you'd have to pay for such an ability. Hopefully less than the annoying mandatory TS asp sorcerer

I'd love it, personally. Snipers would fit right into my clunky, ranged warband. However, I think both marines and chaos marines (foolishly) don't use snipers because they'd rather be in the thick of the fighting, where they can cause the most damage and run on adrenaline.

A marine with a sniper ought to be like a vindicare assassin, in that they should be able to pick out individual models from a squad (if they can draw LoS). I mean, they're the best of the best (personally, I think all snipers should have this rule, and all snipers should be more expensive).

So, I'd have:

Chaos Marine Stalker Squad:
3 marines, 70 pts
Standard wargear - bolters + sniper rifles
Wargear-
one of:
MoT 10pts
MoN 10pts
MoS 20pts
Camo Cloaks 10pts

Special Rules-
Master Marksmen: Chaos Space Marines are veterans of hundreds of battles, many of them hundreds of years old; as such they have an extremely steady hand, only aided by the gyros of their power armour. This allows the squad to pick out an individual model in their LoS to shoot at, however the shot is made at -1 to BS. All members of the squad must shoot the same target.
Something like that?

Personally, only some chaos warbands would use snipers. I can't see world eaters or even rubric marines being snipers. But those more rag-tag none structured warbands, such as the red corsairs, yes I can imagine some troops of theirs who enjoy the silent kill and want to use the freedom that being non-codex allows them.

I could easily imagine sniper rifles as customisation choice for Chosen in the next Chaos Codex ( perhaps similar to the way that Wolfguard can be customised atm ).

lunarman wrote:
Personally, only some chaos warbands would use snipers. I can't see world eaters or even rubric marines being snipers. But those more rag-tag none structured warbands, such as the red corsairs, yes I can imagine some troops of theirs who enjoy the silent kill and want to use the freedom that being non-codex allows them.

Not just the ragtag ones, i envision nightlords with snipers as a standard upgrade. their all about that kind of cloak and dagger way of fighting.

I like your idea about Chosen, KingDeath. They could be an independent new unit, or new Chosen wargear.

Don't worry Tarnish, they certainly wouldn't be silenced Noise Marines! Just read a few lines down.

Here you are a more definitive unit datasheet, based on your ideas. It's meant for them to be independent units; if they were Chosen, they would have the usual Chosen datasheets.


Chaos Stalkers (nice name Lunarman)

Unit composition: 1-5 (25 points each)

Attributes and wargear: same as normal CSM, but theit boltgun is reaplaced by a sniper rifle.

Sniper Rifle: same as the Imperial ones.

Marks (notice they benefit from the usual marks bonus too):

- MoT: 20 points. The sniper uses the same cursed ammo than Rubric Marines, which against most armors are useless. Moreover, this ammo feels its target and can manouvre in mid-air. MoT sniper rifles have a AP 3 isntead of AP 6, and ignore cover saves (but this could be replaced by the possiblity of re-roll falied to-hit rolls)

- MoN: 25 points. The sniper's purpose is to spread infection and plague from afar, breaking enemy lines, so he uses rounds which are full of contagious substances. When a enemy is killed or wounded by his this rounds, gets infected, and emanates contagious gases than can infect its partners. The MoN sniper rifle wounds with 3+, instead of the original 4+. On the next enemy turn, roll 1D6 by each wound caused. With a 4+, the unit suffers a new wound which allows armor and invulnerable saves (they may have gasmasks). New wounds may roll new 1D6 in the following turn(s). The effect disipates if the roll is failed.

- MoS: 20 points. As a noise adict, the sniper uses a customized sniper rifle meant to produce as much noise as possible. This is achieved by special canals in the inside of the cannon, and by giving the bullet great speed, allowing it to noisely break the sound barrier. But the noise doesn't end here: special marks on the bullet cause it to howl while flying, When the bullet hits, it's acompained by a thunder of sound, strong enough for knocking back infantry and temporaly deaf them. This noisy shots don't allow the sniper to remain hidden, but it doesn't matter for him. Leadership checks made by this rifle are done with -2 to the target's Leadership.

Do you like it? More ideas are always welcome! ^^

I like it! I might just use this for my chaos army... if I ever really get any work done on them...

I actually have a CSM Sniper model i kitbashed (no pics unfortunately as i can't think of a colour scheme for him).

For the gun i used the body of a termi TL Bolter, the barrwel of a berzerker plasma pistol, finished with the barrell off a SM Scout Sniper rifle. Chuck on a scope from the scout sprue and it looks ok. The big ammo box on the Tl bolter gives the impression of it firing BIG rounds.

I also made up some rules.....i'll try and find them.




EDIT: found them.




Cost: 45 points.

Unit size: 1

Takes up an Elites slot

WS4, BS5, T4, W1, A1, I4, Ld9, Sv 4+

Wargear:
Bolt Pistol
Maelstrom pattern sniper rifle
Custom stripped down power armour (offers less protection for the trade off if increased flexibility and mobility)

Maelstrom pattern sniper rifle:
48", S X, AP 3, Heavy 1, Sniper
Hits on a 2+, wounds on a 3+. Rending, Pinning. When shooting at vehicles, the shot is resolved as S 5 (potentially a S14 shot, IF you roll maximum for rending).
(the model of the gun is made from the body of a termie Tl bolter, the muzzle of a 'zerker plasma pistol, and the barrel of a SM scout sniper rifle. It looks mean. i was going for the .50 cal of 40k)



Other rules:
Move Through Cover
Infiltrate
Fade to Black - the Chaos sniper is a creature of the shadows and is adept at disguising himself and blending into his surroundings. Chaos Snipers gain +2 to their cover save.







You could always incorporate the Marks as dicussed above into it:


MoN - wounds on a 2+ (poisoned rounds)
MoT - ignore cover (seeker rounds)
MoS - on a successful wound, the round release a burst of concentrated niose, knocking the affected unit D3" back (roll a scatter dice)

Praxiss wrote:I actually have a CSM Sniper model i kitbashed (no pics unfortunately as i can't think of a colour scheme for him).

For the gun i used the body of a termi TL Bolter, the barrwel of a berzerker plasma pistol, finished with the barrell off a SM Scout Sniper rifle. Chuck on a scope from the scout sprue and it looks ok. The big ammo box on the Tl bolter gives the impression of it firing BIG rounds.

I also made up some rules.....i'll try and find them.




EDIT: found them.




Cost: 45 points.

Unit size: 1

Takes up an Elites slot

WS4, BS5, T4, W1, A1, I4, Ld9, Sv 4+

Wargear:
Bolt Pistol
Maelstrom pattern sniper rifle
Custom stripped down power armour (offers less protection for the trade off if increased flexibility and mobility)

Maelstrom pattern sniper rifle:
48", S X, AP 3, Heavy 1, Sniper
Hits on a 2+, wounds on a 3+. Rending, Pinning. When shooting at vehicles, the shot is resolved as S 5 (potentially a S14 shot, IF you roll maximum for rending).
(the model of the gun is made from the body of a termie Tl bolter, the muzzle of a 'zerker plasma pistol, and the barrel of a SM scout sniper rifle. It looks mean. i was going for the .50 cal of 40k)



Other rules:
Move Through Cover
Infiltrate
Fade to Black - the Chaos sniper is a creature of the shadows and is adept at disguising himself and blending into his surroundings. Chaos Snipers gain +2 to their cover save.







You could always incorporate the Marks as dicussed above into it:


MoN - wounds on a 2+ (poisoned rounds)
MoT - ignore cover (seeker rounds)
MoS - on a successful wound, the round release a burst of concentrated niose, knocking the affected unit D3" back (roll a scatter dice)

Nice rules, but some of them are a bit too much. I wouldn't like Chaos snipers to be too close to Vindicare assasins, in terms of weapons. They should be between SM Scouts (who benefit from scout rules) and the Vindicare assasin. But thanks for posting! ^^

IronChaos wrote:MoN: 25 points. The sniper's purpose is to spread infection and plague from afar, breaking enemy lines, so he uses rounds which are full of contagious substances. When a enemy is killed or wounded by his this rounds, gets infected, and emanates contagious gases than can infect its partners. The MoN sniper rifle wounds with 3+, instead of the original 4+. On the next enemy turn, roll 1D6 by each wound caused. With a 4+, the unit suffers a new wound which allows armor and invulnerable saves (they may have gasmasks). New wounds may roll new 1D6 in the following turn(s). The effect disipates if the roll is failed.

If this ruleset is going to be used, it'd probably be a good idea to use "disease tokens" to keep track of which squad is affected and how many guys are actually infected.

Praxiss wrote:You could always incorporate the Marks as dicussed above into it:


MoN - wounds on a 2+ (poisoned rounds)
MoT - ignore cover (seeker rounds)
MoS - on a successful wound, the round release a burst of concentrated niose, knocking the affected unit D3" back (roll a scatter dice)

For the MoS, to add a bit of tactical useage, the knockback can be directly backward. Think about knocking units into dangerous terrain or maybe a couple inches closer to a squad hoping for assault.

That's what i was thinking, but thought the randomness of a scatter would add a bti more.....chaos to it.




@ ironchaos. I've never seen the rules for the Vindicare. I was going essentially for a souped up Scout. Thinking that these Snipers have hundreds if not thousands of years experience.

Which bit(s) do you think are OP?

Praxiss wrote:That's what i was thinking, but thought the randomness of a scatter would add a bti more.....chaos to it.




@ ironchaos. I've never seen the rules for the Vindicare. I was going essentially for a souped up Scout. Thinking that these Snipers have hundreds if not thousands of years experience.

Which bit(s) do you think are OP?

Vindicare assasins use a special sniper rifle. Hit on 2+ (if they fail, can re-roll with 6+). They shoot four kinds of ammo: one which disables invulnerable saves, one which rolls 4D6 against vehicles, one which causes more than one wound and something else. When I said OP, I was refering to this xD and this isn't all they have!

GK Vindicares, thanks to the new codex, hit on 2+ with a 4+ reroll. Unlimited Special Ammo. One which destroys wargear based invulnerable saves, one for 4d6 armour penetration causes 2 wounds, or 2+ wounding all in a nice AP2 Rifle.

Chaos Marines wouldn't be 'snipers' any more than Tactical Marines or Terminators would be. There's no feasible reason for an Astartes to give up his bolter(an effective multi-role weapon) for a sniper rifle(a single role weapon). If Cultists make it into the CSM book, then that's where you'd see snipers. They can afford to be specialists, as they are quite effectively limited in their roles to certain loadouts.

CSM really need chapter-specific codices. Night Lords would totally go for Sniper Rifles. I expect at the very least an Iron Warriors flagship codex within five years, probably when all loyalist chapters have been updated and they run out of ideas for toys to give them...

Surely there's no reason, fluff-wise, that a marine would prefer to use a Sniper rifle and attack targets from range?

Doesn't the SM scout character....Telion is it? Prefer to do this? Also aren't Scouts Astartes as well (admittedly not completely "matured i suppose". But in the SoulDrinker books there is a scout who is offered a spot in a proper tac squad and turns it down to remain with the scouts as a sniper.

Also, Lucius the Eternal, Kharn etc are pushed as a more CC oriented characters. Why not have a ranged oriented character as well?

lindsay40k wrote:CSM really need chapter-specific codices. Night Lords would totally go for Sniper Rifles. I expect at the very least an Iron Warriors flagship codex within five years, probably when all loyalist chapters have been updated and they run out of ideas for toys to give them...

The Night Lords have slaves and traitor guard followers that can fulfill the role of snipers for them... plus the Night Lords are a "strike close from the shadows" legion, rather than a long range sniping force. Many of the Raptors in the CSM warbands come from the Night Lords - they love close combat, the thrill of the hunt.

Praxiss wrote:Surely there's no reason, fluff-wise, that a marine would prefer to use a Sniper rifle and attack targets from range?

Doesn't the SM scout character....Telion is it? Prefer to do this? Also aren't Scouts Astartes as well (admittedly not completely "matured i suppose". But in the SoulDrinker books there is a scout who is offered a spot in a proper tac squad and turns it down to remain with the scouts as a sniper.

Also, Lucius the Eternal, Kharn etc are pushed as a more CC oriented characters. Why not have a ranged oriented character as well?

Telion doesn't use a sniper rifle. He uses a 'Stalker' pattern boltgun, loaded with Stalker rounds. It exemplifies the multi-role nature of bolters--as it's a sniper bolter, for all intents and purposes.

Scouts also are intended to be specialists. They adapt their loadouts as the mission profile dictates. One mission they'll be using bolters and heavy bolters to act as a fast moving firebase covering their power armoured brethren, the next they'll be using sniper rifles and missile launchers to act as a static fire support squad aiming for the heavy hitters of an enemy force.

If Chaos wants a ranged character, there's far better ways to do it than "hurr sniper". A Kai Gun equipped Havoc character, for example. The Vindicare example also doesn't hold up, simply because he's a specialist that has always traditionally been associated with the Inquisition.

lindsay40k wrote:CSM really need chapter-specific codices. Night Lords would totally go for Sniper Rifles. I expect at the very least an Iron Warriors flagship codex within five years, probably when all loyalist chapters have been updated and they run out of ideas for toys to give them...

I would love to have Legion specific Codices, as that would also imply new Legion specific models.

However I would worry about them being over/under powered again as was the case with the CSM Codex of '03 (whichever edition that was).

For example, the Iron Warriors could run NINE Obliterators as ELITES and could take FOUR HEAVY SUPPORT choices by giving up two fast attack choices.

And they could use Basilisks and Vindicators, something that no other CSM Legion could do in that particular 'dex.

Basically, just as long as they didn't make it ridiculous... maybe they could send Matt Ward on vacation when they're being written... then it would be good in my opinion.

Couldn't Khorne snipers have Assualt weapond but 18" range?

That wouldn't really be a sniper weapon woudl it?


Reagrding the versatility of the bolter. I actually built the sniper rifle based off a twin linked bolter. So i guess it coudl be classed as a modified bolter, much like Telions, but configured for more range.

I called it a Maelstrom Pattern rifle. Just swap "rifle" to "bolter"

Telion's bolter isn't actually 'modified'. It's a specific type of bolter that works differently than standard bolters--but only with a specific type of ammunition. Stalker ammo can be loaded into any bolter or bolt pistol. The ammo is silenced, as it doesn't ignite or detonate like most bolter rounds. It just fires a heavy round that's intended to punch through a target, killing them quietly.

I already thought about CSM would probably prefer to stay close to their enemies rather than to be snipers, but then I remebered the Alpha Legion and their infiltration tactics; sniper CSM would fit on them.

Yeah, Cultists would probably fit in the sniper role (they can truly assume many roles! xD). And I hope them to be in the next codex edition! They're everywhere: I can remeber Storm of Iron, some IG novels, the Dawn of War games... they are really everywhere and are very defining units of CSM warbands. There are, also, may unofficial rules for them, for example:
http://perturabo93.deviantart.com/#/d3aleco (read picture and description)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/340878.page#2346498