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I found this while I was retorting in another thread..



My question is simple, If we have a Welsh assembly, and a Scottish parliament, and NI has its own governence, WHY is England bending to the whims of people that dont live here, this may be a somewhat simplistic view, but I like to keep things strightforward.

i.e. From looking at that map, why on earth isnt England conservative? And isnt anyone else here outraged that it isnt?

As far as I can see, my country has a coalition government because Scotland, Wales and NI dont like the conservatives. And im very annoyed about it.

Am I wrong to feel this way? It seems.. straightforward enough to me.

Solutions?

That map is for local council results not general election results.

But its indicative of the voting of the people of England surely?

ie. More people voted conservative than for anyone else.

Not really - it holds true largely in the country but in cities like London (which isn't coloured on that map), large swathes are red. London has 73 constituencies so that's quite a large number of potential seats.

There's a good map here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

As you can see, London, Manchester and Liverpool are all predominantly red.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So geographically, large portions of the country are blue but it isn't reflective since a constituency only equals one seat in parliament no matter what its size.

We should rise up and teach these fools what is what!

From the above http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

about 1/3rd of those who voted voted for the Cons.

England is blue...

Halon gets it.

England is pretty much all blue, as I stated, and I recall seeing the map after the GE and thinking the same!

So, my question stands, if the majority of England is blue, why do we have a coalition? I say its because of Wales, Scotland and NI.

Is that incorrect?

If we had just England, Labour would obviously take the North East (to my eternal embarassment) and the Scousers, but England is conservative.

Im presuming you guys are trying to "soften up" the issue with your fluffy speech because you support the labour party?

Or as Filbert puts it...

"geographically, large portions of the country are blue but it isn't reflective since a constituency only equals one seat in parliament no matter what its size"

In a nutshell, take only England, and we have a large conservative majority, yes?

In America blue means Democrat, which is progressive.

So from my perspective England is either Progressive and can save us money on our car insurance, or you guys have a lot of unobtanium that we could use.

Because it isnt based on geography, Matty.
There are some massive constituencies that when viewed at a UK level, make it look like everyone voted Tory. But when you break it down by constituency, it isn't the case. This is because a large proportion of our population, and thus our constituencies, are urban. Results from Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, London et al sway the result significantly but when viewed on a map at a UK level don't appear to add much colour because geographically speaking, they are small areas.

Im trying to get down to brass tacks here filbert, Royal Marines prefer the direct approach!

Lets just say this then...

Heres the figures by number of votes..

Conservative - 10,726,614

Labour - 8,609,527

If everyone in England voted a higher percentage would have voted conservative.

Yes?

mattyrm wrote:Im trying to get down to brass tacks here filbert, Royal Marines prefer the direct approach!

Lets just say this then...

Heres the figures by number of votes..

Conservative - 10,726,614

Labour - 8,609,527

If everyone in England voted a higher percentage would have voted conservative.

Yes?

If England were one big constituency, yes. But those votes are spread across constituencies, each of which elects a single MP using first past the post, meaning any and all extra votes are not tallied. So it is a bit disingenuous to just add up all the votes that a party received and say 'well, we should have x amount of seats'. Its the same argument that Lib Dems have used for years to argue for PR. You have to look at it from a constituency point of view - its one of the reasons that Labour got into power in the first place after so many years of Tory rule; they targeted close seats and disaffected middle class (so called Mondeo Man) that helped swing just a few key constituencies their way. They didn't have to win massive shares of the vote of have a load more people voting for them than normal (actually as it turned out, it was a bit of a landslide in 97 but the point is the same)

filbert wrote:(actually as it turned out, it was a bit of a landslide in 97 but the point is the same)

A black day indeed :(

Alright then..

I see what your saying of course, If you added up the votes for all the left or left leaning parties (Labour and Lib dems greens etc) and all the votes for the right leaning parties an argument could be made that yes, England has more pinkos than tories..

But still, im just talking about the system as it is now, and it looks to me that England is blue, and my mate Superdave should be in charge without having to make some concessions to the lib dems!

mattyrm wrote:Alright then..

I see what your saying of course, If you added up the votes for all the left or left leaning parties (Labour and Lib dems greens etc) and all the votes for the right leaning parties an argument could be made that yes, England has more pinkos than tories..

But still, im just talking about the system as it is now, and it looks to me that England is blue, and my mate Superdave should be in charge without having to make some concessions to the lib dems!

Yes, it does look like that - but it just isn't the case. You are being mislead by a combination of constituency politics, first past the post and geographical representation, muddled by issues of scale

Do we have different meanings for 'pinkos' than you guys?

filbert wrote:

Yes, it does look like that - but it just isn't the case. You are being mislead by a combination of constituency politics, first past the post and geographical representation, muddled by issues of scale

I don't think im being misled, I think your unwilling to concede that I do actually have a point, sure its not as black and white a point as I was making in the first instance, but the Conservative party got two million votes more than the Labour party, and that's right there for all to see!

Its odd to meet an ex squaddie who is a labour voter, your not a scouser are you?


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halonachos wrote:Do we have different meanings for 'pinkos' than you guys?

I dont think so, it might confuse you guys cos your blues are your pinkos, and our reds are your pinkos.

But basically I use it as "left leaning people/commies/socialists"

mattyrm wrote: I dont think so, it might confuse you guys cos your blues are your pinkos, and our reds are your pinkos.

But basically I use it as "left leaning people/commies/socialists"

Oh, same meaning... wait, you guys still have communists?

mattyrm wrote:

filbert wrote:

Yes, it does look like that - but it just isn't the case. You are being mislead by a combination of constituency politics, first past the post and geographical representation, muddled by issues of scale

I don't think im being misled, I think your unwilling to concede that I do actually have a point, sure its not as black and white a point as I was making in the first instance, but the Conservative party got two million votes more than the Labour party, and that's right there for all to see!

Its odd to meet an ex squaddie who is a labour voter, your not a scouser are you?

I'm not a labour voter and nor am I a scouser. I voted conservative at the last election. Matty you know you seem pretty smart (for a bootneck anyway ) but sometimes you can be a bit obtuse...

Look, the point I'm trying to make is this: if you look at the map I linked earlier, zoomed out to show all of UK, then yes, it looks like more people voted conservative than Labour or Lib Dem. However, as I mentioned, London alone has 73 seats. Now can you count those individual seats at that scale? Can you even see them? Even London itself looks pretty small compared to the whole of the UK at that scale. Now repeat for the other major cities and you soon see that urban areas have much more of a sway than their geographic size would indicate. Some of the constituencies in the countryside are huge but are still only one seat and one MP. Just because large areas of the map are blue doesn't indicate that the conservatives won more seats; it just looks like that.

I noticed you left Cornwall off your map Matty, do you also hold with the idea of returning the Stannary Parliament?

halonachos wrote:Oh, same meaning... wait, you guys still have communists?

Italy has a rather large Communist party. It is not the "great evil" in Europe that it is in the USA.

filbert wrote:

I'm not a labour voter and nor am I a scouser. I voted conservative at the last election. Matty you know you seem pretty smart (for a bootneck anyway ) but sometimes you can be a bit obtuse...

Look, the point I'm trying to make is this: if you look at the map I linked earlier, zoomed out to show all of UK, then yes, it looks like more people voted conservative than Labour or Lib Dem. However, as I mentioned, London alone has 73 seats. Now can you count those individual seats at that scale? Can you even see them? Even London itself looks pretty small compared to the whole of the UK at that scale. Now repeat for the other major cities and you soon see that urban areas have much more of a sway than their geographic size would indicate. Some of the constituencies in the countryside are huge but are still only one seat and one MP. Just because large areas of the map are blue doesn't indicate that the conservatives won more seats; it just looks like that.

Aye I was only taking the piss mate, I know your not a red, we've talked politics many times on here, im just being a bit belligerent.

I understand what your saying, Its down to volume of votes, not the geographic size of the constituency.

But still, the main point im trying to make is obvious right? For example, Scottish people directly affect legislation in this country correct? But we have no politcians voting in the Scottish parliament, and I feel that this is an undesirable situation.

Oh and we should lay C4 on the border with Scotland and then push it away with big sticks. But that's another thread altogether.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I noticed you left Cornwall off your map Matty, do you also hold with the idea of returning the Stannary Parliament?

Its not my map mate, I just googled it!

SilverMK2 wrote:

halonachos wrote:Oh, same meaning... wait, you guys still have communists?

Italy has a rather large Communist party. It is not the "great evil" in Europe that it is in the USA.

Then I guess that means Russia won the Cold War.

halonachos wrote:Then I guess that means Russia won the Cold War.

Well, given that (off the top of my head) there are no communist countries in Europe I think most people realise that it is a bad move

mattyrm wrote:

Aye I was only taking the piss mate, I know your not a red, we've talked politics many times on here, im just being a bit belligerent.

I understand what your saying, Its down to volume of votes, not the geographic size of the constituency.

But still, the main point im trying to make is obvious right? For example, Scottish people directly affect legislation in this country correct? But we have no politcians voting in the Scottish parliament, and I feel that this is an undesirable situation.

Oh and we should lay C4 on the border with Scotland and then push it away with big sticks. But that's another thread altogether.

Yes, Wales and Scotland do have an influence on our parliament but then again, they are subject to our laws (largely) and our taxation. No taxation without representation right? I guess you are firmly in favour of granting welsh and Scottish independence. Personally, I'm not so sure - it would be a shame to dissolve all that history just because we don't like how they vote. I would rather the conservatives applied some more populist policy and try and win them over rather than effectively say 'we're not letting you be a part of our club any more'. And anyway, we would soon have to dip into our pockets to bale the Jocks and Taffs out when their economies sink

It is a coalition because a Conservative politician, who isn't even conservative, couldn't win an election despite the incumbent government being generally despised.

It is a myth to think that Scotland, NI and Wales make England dance to their tune. If you removed the MPs from these countries, then Labour would still have won the 1997,2001, and 2005 elections.

If it makes the OP feel any better we have the same problem here in the US.

http://www.patriotnewsalert.com/ElectionMap2008.htm

filbert wrote:

Yes, Wales and Scotland do have an influence on our parliament but then again, they are subject to our laws (largely) and our taxation. No taxation without representation right? I guess you are firmly in favour of granting welsh and Scottish independence. Personally, I'm not so sure - it would be a shame to dissolve all that history just because we don't like how they vote. I would rather the conservatives applied some more populist policy and try and win them over rather than effectively say 'we're not letting you be a part of our club any more'. And anyway, we would soon have to dip into our pockets to bale the Jocks and Taffs out when their economies sink

Mate, honestly, do you think its even possible to win them over?

People have long memories, up here in the North East, they will literally NEVER vote conservative, Newcastle, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, its a total write off. Same with Merseyside, people have long memories, especially stupid people that dont go to university or actually read the newspapers properly and get their political views via recycled gossip in the pub or off their mothers and fathers.

No, I think they will never win them over, Scotland should be a seperate nation, and they should not get a single penny from south of the border.

Its running us £31 billion a year at the moment, and the Scots know it, and brag about it. "Lets take the English for all we can" they shriek with delight.

Not only do I want them to get independence, Id force them to apply for work permits to come and live and work in England as well!

SilverMK2 wrote:

halonachos wrote:Then I guess that means Russia won the Cold War.

Well, given that (off the top of my head) there are no communist countries in Europe I think most people realise that it is a bad move

Yeah! We won! USA, USA, USA!

mattyrm wrote:

Mate, honestly, do you think its even possible to win them over?

People have long memories, up here in the North East, they will literally NEVER vote conservative, Newcastle, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, its a total write off. Same with Merseyside, people have long memories, especially stupid people that dont go to university or actually read the newspapers properly and get their political views via recycled gossip in the pub or off their mothers and fathers.

No, I think they will never win them over, Scotland should be a seperate nation, and they should not get a single penny from south of the border.

Its running us £31 billion a year at the moment, and the Scots know it, and brag about it. "Lets take the English for all we can" they shriek with delight.

Not only do I want them to get independence, Id force them to apply for work permits to come and live and work in England as well!

Perhaps not in Scotland, but the Tories need to go back to what won them elections. There used to be a large slice of working class people, in places like you mention, who voted exclusively Tory, not because they were rich but because they believed the Tory party were the best party to manage the economy in a way that would enable them to prosper.

Dave and his friends need to crack on with getting our economy back up and running and getting people into work. If they do that, then I think people will slowly come around to voting Tory. It certainly won't be a dirty word like it is right now.