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Ever since the Grey Knight codex came out, there has been screams of OP. For a time, it was fun and games, but now I think its gone far enough. I rolled with the whole "Flavour of the month codex creep" terror for a while, but that should be well an truly gone now.

Frankly, I am dumbfounded that I am seeing so many good players say how overpowered the GK codex really is. Every game I step into with my GK, I step into knowing my huge weaknesses, and fearing their exploitation. Not 3 weeks ago, I fought against a tyranid player in a 1500pts game, and as I deployed, I saw that I was both horribly outnumbered and that the list was primed for killing MEQ. Between having a flyrant, a trygon and a bunch of genestealers, and termagants with devourers, I could see my doom approaching. None the less, I fought as hard as I could, and with some very well placed interceptor incinerator templates, and some even luckier force weapon tests, I tabled the 'Nids on turn 4.

The opposing player sat down and facepalmed and said "GK are so overpowered, why didnt I play them?!"

I stood up and said "Stand here" and pointed to where I was standing. He walked around to my edge of the table. I handed him my codex, and walked around to his table edge. I demanded a rematch, but this time that I play his Tyranid list, and that he play my exact grey knights list. We both knew each codex well, but had never played them. I tabled him on turn 6.

Its just a simple case of not knowing how to kill them. Know your enemy, read the codex. I am astonished that so few players take advantage of GK's poor range. Apart from psyflemen and land raiders, GK simply dont have anything effective farther than 24'. GK armies cannot afford to field every good unit in their codex. If there are purifiers, shoot them, they have very low durability, normal toughness, no FNP, no Inv save. Hit them with a template weapon, its a simple case of passing their armour. Dont let them assault you! Dont let your 30 sluggaboy squad get anywhere near them! Blow up GK transports with autocannons, you'll be well out of range of their psycannons and they'll have a long walk before they can reprise. Assault Strike Squads, they are pretty crappy in close combat, trust me! A few whiffs here and there and you arent getting many kills with them, their power is in their shooting. Don't worry about trying to hit paladins with Str 8 shooting, just hit them with ap2! Does anybody realize that 5 paladins getting hit by plasma guns are about as good as 10 guardsmen? Wear the paladins down with a 4x plasma CCS or a Plasma/Fusion/Target Lock crisis team and let the last 1 or 2 flounder around and do no damage for the rest of the game.

Battlecannons are beautiful weapons against GK. They destroy power armor like a hot chainsaw through butter! And if there are paladins, any wounds that do pass armour cannot be FNPd and are insta killing those paladins. Every single Paladin you kill is 55+ points killed. And everyone should know how to kill dreadknights by now.


Yes, Psycannons are good. Yes, GK seem to have an answer for everything in every squad. Yes, no other army has access to str 5 assault 2 ap 5 guns or str 10 hammers on their basic troop. But also remember that you should outnumber them at least 2/1. I have played IG and SM too, and hell do I miss executioners and basilisks and sternguard and TH/SS. All such good units.

You need to change your way of thinking. GK cant afford a spam of land raiders and storm ravens, yet your list should have some str 10 ap 1 or some melta somewhere, right? It may seem unorthodox, but firing these weapons on paladins IS a valid tactical decision. Think of them as a land raider. Hit them with lascannons, meltas, railguns. Anything. Dont shoot them with bolters or assault them with anything under str 8, dont use template weapons on them. Doesnt work. Use high end AT on them.

Just please take a moment to realize what you are saying people. Do you see Dash or Hulksmash crying cheese or OP? When you read Jy2's battle reports, do you see that, even with such good lists, he loses to generic enemy lists sometimes, even being such a good player? When I see Grey Knights win 'Ard Boyz, I will believe that they are Tier 1, But I believe that Guard, BA and SW are still the true kings of this game.

It only has two things that are op. Psycher spam through cortez and scout shunt dreadknights. Otherwise the codex is just fine.

You don't need to make a long post about it, but I applaud the effort.

juraigamer wrote:It only has two things that are op. Psycher spam through cortez and scout shunt dreadknights. Otherwise the codex is just fine.

You don't need to make a long post about it, but I applaud the effort.

I felt the need. First off where did you get that psyker spam is OP? Just coz Dash did it? It would be a very difficult list to play. Scout shunting dreadknights are a bit OTT, but the FAQ should fix any misconceptions.

I guess I am just sick of people blaming a codex for their lack of skill

Who claimed the Grey Knights were overpowered? In the court of interwebz opinion, the Grey Knights settled pretty quickly into top tier along with Blood Angels and Dark Eldar, but not the penultimate tier of Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. I haven't seen nearly as many threads complaining about psydreads as I've seen about longfangs, for example.

juraigamer wrote:It only has two things that are op. Psycher spam through cortez and scout shunt dreadknights. Otherwise the codex is just fine. You don't need to make a long post about it, but I applaud the effort.

I'm not sure about those things. One failed psychic test wipes out the whole unit of psykers, and scout shunt dreadknights are crazy expensive for what they do.

My primary problems with it are drastically undercosted Psybolt ammo on many platforms (5pts for Rifleman Dread? Really? On what planet is that balanced?) ginormous Scout shunts, and the murky rules issues surrounding Henchmen and the ability to min/max the crap out of them. Aside from that, a lot of the stuff got toned *wayyyyyy* down from the leaked playtest codex (e.g. Dreadnight remaining the same cost but with lower S, T and Invul save, etc) and for the most part find GK's to be powerful but not really in the way I'd have hoped and not overwhelmingly so.

It's certainly not like facing SW armies with more long range AT guns than most IG armies.

I agree with those, but people seem to think every single unit in the GK codex is cheese.

GKs have a few massively overpowered units, but the army as a whole isn't overpowered. Same as Space Wolves. It's not like IG where 90% of the army is cheaper than it should be.

To your points, though:

- GKs really don't have the problem with range that you think they do. Try using Autocannons with Psybolt Ammo, and a Vindicare (who will probably blow up one vehicle or kill one heavy weapon-wielding model per turn).

- Paladins aren't that great, and an "overpowered" list wouldn't use them at all.

- Keeping Purifiers from assaulting is easier said than done, with Crowe and Razorback spam.

- Battle Cannons aren't instant death to infantry by any means. Use cover, and blow them up with your Autocannons.

scout shunting DK arent that OP. they might do some damage, but they die fast to a counter attack. simple answer if you see a bunch of DK. reserve your killy units and wait for them to shunt into your gun sights and powerfists

Jaon wrote: Apart from psyflemen and land raiders, GK simply dont have anything effective farther than 24'. GK armies cannot afford to field every good unit in their codex.

Except the Interceptors you just mentioned. And stun-resistant, Flat-out moving StormRavens firing twin-linked weapons with POTMS.

Can GKs field every powerful unit in the codex? No. Can they field enough to have a package in which every part performs better than enemy equivalents while costing a good bit less? Yes.

The model count isn't even that low, unless you go for an all-terminator build. Certainly far higher than a Thousand-Sons CSM build, for instance, or non-Guardian Eldar.

It's not your fault, of course. People usually like the concept of armies. Many friends of mine have been waiting to play shelved armies of GK for a long time.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you're a bad person, and your carbon footprint is a disaster for playing the new Grey Knights.

Xarian wrote:It's not like IG where 90% of the army is cheaper than it should be

What utter nonsense.

Xarian wrote:GKs have a few massively overpowered units, but the army as a whole isn't overpowered. Same as Space Wolves.

The difference is with Space Wolves they can make exceedingly effective armies spamming the 4 or 5 grossly undercosted units in the army, simultaneously outshooting many IG armies while matching many CSM armies in CC with the same list. (seriously...played a list a few weeks ago with 50 BS4 heavy/special weapons consisting of lascannons/missile launchers/TL plasma guns, meltas and combi-meltas running around with 11 tanks in addition to half a company of BP/CCW/Bolter/Counterattack marines in a 2000pt game...hooray playtesting!)

It's not like IG where 90% of the army is cheaper than it should be.

If by 90% you mean Vendettas and maybe hydras and Marbo...

- Battle Cannons aren't instant death to infantry by any means. Use cover, and blow them up with your Autocannons.

Given that the typical battlecannon platform is AV14, autocannons aren't that much of a threat.

Sephyr wrote:

Jaon wrote: Apart from psyflemen and land raiders, GK simply dont have anything effective farther than 24'. GK armies cannot afford to field every good unit in their codex.

Except the Interceptors you just mentioned. And stun-resistant, Flat-out moving StormRavens firing twin-linked weapons with POTMS.

Can GKs field every powerful unit in the codex? No. Can they field enough to have a package in which every part performs better than enemy equivalents while costing a good bit less? Yes.

The model count isn't even that low, unless you go for an all-terminator build. Certainly far higher than a Thousand-Sons CSM build, for instance, or non-Guardian Eldar.

It's not your fault, of course. People usually like the concept of armies. Many friends of mine have been waiting to play shelved armies of GK for a long time.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you're a bad person, and your carbon footprint is a disaster for playing the new Grey Knights.

While I receive your jesting point ( ) What equivalents cost more in other armies?

GK really aren't that op when you consider the cost they have. On the other hand I don't find any army to be really overpowered, just annoying to play when they cheese, which anyone can do. If you are playing a 11 tank/transport list with space wolves there really is not much a difference from doing the same list with blood angels or regular marines. I personally play space wolves and have since 3rd edition and can't buy a win anymore because I have no transport at all and only 1 long fang squad, yet when people ask what army i play they quiver at the thought of space wolves. it is just rediculous

yankees4life3 wrote:GK really aren't that op when you consider the cost they have. On the other hand I don't find any army to be really overpowered, just annoying to play when they cheese, which anyone can do. If you are playing a 11 tank/transport list with space wolves there really is not much a difference from doing the same list with blood angels or regular marines. I personally play space wolves and have since 3rd edition and can't buy a win anymore because I have no transport at all and only 1 long fang squad, yet when people ask what army i play they quiver at the thought of space wolves. it is just rediculous

The primary difference is that compared to BA's, they have a lot more points to play with, compared to C:SM, they get a few more points to play with and far more capable troops, and compared to either they have cheaper heavy weapons in larger quantities that can be directed more effectively. (seeing SW armies with 15 split fire krak missiles on nearly 30 marines in 750pt games got old really fast)

I understand where you are coming from my point is that while spacewolves may have a easier time doing that with points other armies have similar things they can exploit. and i would consider that strategy to be a cheese army

I haven't seen a GK army yet that my Eldar did not like. I do not know exactly what it is about the GK, but I am 3 wins and zero losses with my Eldar against them so far. I can not say the same vs others.

If Eldar are underpowered as everyone claims, perhaps in this great game of "rock, paper, scissors" it all balances out.

The vindicare isnt "likely" to kill a tank each turn.

Assuming you are in range, and no cover, then you have:

5/6 + 1/6*1/2 chance to hit - 11/12

Due to AP1, and assuming not opentopped, you havea 50% chance of killing the vehicle - 6/12

COmbined you have 11/24 chance of killing a vehicle a turn. S lightly under half. For 145 points of 2W, T4 stealth elite choice.

Scout shunting is meh - in objective missions you're better off giving them scoring. Scoring dreadknights are a LOT scarier to folks than scouting ones.

Kudos for having such a great attitude, sometimes people just get all "rabbit in the headlights" when facing the newest codex, that they forget to apply some common sense.

I think thats the main thing - they havea lot of good combinations that, if they get going, are pretty hard

However at all points GK at least pay for this. Rather than Phils SW of "banner of cheese lets me reroll mark of wulfen attacks as well! and sweeping advance rolls as well? amazing! and i get all this for less than chaos marines get less? AWESOME"

Halberd GKTs with a libby with Might of titan and hammer hand is hellishly nasty - however that costs you an HQ slot on a fairly squishy character (unless you splurge 35 points on him!) AND, unless you take another costly character has also cost you the insane flexibilty of a GKGM with rad nades, Grand Strategy and the like.

Scout shunting DKs? Nah, make them scoring and watch people sweat as you hop 30" last turn to claim an objective.

It isn't OP but when you built a good list they can be hard to take down like that double dreadknight list i had to face

Double dreadnought, double SR? Friend of mine at club runs that - he's magnetised the dreads to fit the SR, so his deployment is either nothing or 2 models.....

I honestly think that the GK are quite a balanced 'dex, with a lot of fun and competitive options.

Dispite what we say, GW does seem to be making an effort as far as balance is concerned.

Which was my point - they pay for everything they get, are not as survivable / as survivable but cost more compared to vanilla marines, and have a tough time with ranged weaponry (apart from a single vindicare and psyrifleman dreads)

You havea lot of potential builds, and that is something that is good to see.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I haven't seen a GK army yet that my Eldar did not like. I do not know exactly what it is about the GK, but I am 3 wins and zero losses with my Eldar against them so far. I can not say the same vs others.

If Eldar are underpowered as everyone claims, perhaps in this great game of "rock, paper, scissors" it all balances out.

Eldar are actually one of the armies that can really put a hurt on GKs. All those 36" weapons.

Oh, and CWE have the ultimate GK can-opener. DARK REAPERS. Far beyond their typical range, AP3, lots of shots...Everyone I see says DRs aren't worth their points. They are the BANE of MEQ. Not to mention, the exarch with Fast Shot and an EML = <3

So basically, you are saying that because you tabled the Nid player in turn 4 instead of turn 3, the GK codex isn't overpowered. Gotcha!

***don't flame, I AM joking***


Here's the problem - it's too easy to start a blog.

When trying to dream up content for a blog, people need to give their opinion about everything, even if their opinion is covered with splinters from the bottom of the barrel. I've seen a heavy steam-rolling effect with blogs where someone will say something then within a week 40 blogs are parroting the same crap.

EVERYBODY cries that the latest codex is overpowered until everyone figures out how to kill it. I can't believe there are still people afraid of IG. That's sad.

Right now, GK are king because people haven't figured out how to kill them. Each army is different. When a player comes with a boiler-plate list playing every army the same way, they are going to get smacked around until they become a bit more tactically astute.

You shouldn't be writing posts defending GK. You should be writing propaganda about how deadly they are. You're king now - bask in the sunlight. In two years you will be playing bottom tier and whatever the latest codex is at that time will be "overpowered".

Also what people need to take in to account is that nearly all of us (let's face it, more people DON'T play Tournaments then do) don't use uber cheez lists.

I think playing against a balanced list means anyone can win but when you start going against the long fang spam / other cheez builds then it is going to be hard because they are exploiting holes in the Codex that probably never was meant to be. This is great for tourney players and WAAC players but I still bet most SW players don't always use this. I know the ones I've played against don't and it always results in a closer game which is more fun for everyone.

Being a Black Templar player, I was worried about the sea of force weapons coming my way, however I can easily adapt my force with some serious ranged firepower.
Thank you, Jaon, you have reassured me and gotten me prepared for my first match against these guys.

Jaon wrote:While I receive your jesting point ( ) What equivalents cost more in other armies?

Let me give you some examples: my Ultramarine-playing friend who is all but undefeated (our meta is not uber-competitive, but still) was demonstrating at our game club the other day about how a generic GK librarian can easily be made to completely outclass Tigurius for a lower price. Better powers, better saves, better psy-defense, all for a lesser cost than the alleged uber-psyker that got to go mind-to-mind with the tyranid hive mind and lived to tell the tale.

The basic strike squad is also cheaper than the average MeQ once the goodies are factored. Vanilla marines pay 15 points for the power weapons GKs get for free, and that's leaving out the Force aspect of the CC. The invidual model is not cheap, but compare dwith say, noise marines (similar cost, and that's without the shooting upgrade), thousand sons or even moderately kitted out tac squads, they are not that expensive while bringing so much more to the table. And they can still take transports and other measures to avoid the vulnerabilities of MeQs.

Speaking of transports, here too they have a cheap goodie that you won't find in other armies: shaken-and-stun resistance across the whole motor pool. It's very reliable, and even psychic hoods have to be at a somewhat dangerous range (close enough to be torn by psycannons) to try to jinx it. For armies that rely on just temporarily disabling vehicles to focus on their goals (or who lack the firepower volume to destroy armor in large quantities), like DE, Eldar, Daemons and a few others, this is a big deal: it can mean you'll waste ludicrous amount oo autocannon and even lascannon fire and not have any impact on the target even if you hit it. It's also a fraction of the cost of the equivalents in other forces: Extra Armor and Daemin Possession.

Again, I'm sure there are other weaknesses to be exploited. I'm not a seasoned veteran at this game. But I still worry when people simply go "Oh, this dex is not strong at all: this other army that you can mix/max to oblivion *coughIGcough* can handle it no problem!". It creates a self-reinforcing standard that means that only 3-4 armies ever really 'count'.

And don't get me started on Psychostroke and Rad grenades.

I have only played against GK's with my Daemons, and managed 2 wins and a draw.

Force weapons don't bug me, I like my Invun, Daemon Bane doesn't bug me, I only apply the MC's and multi wound creatures onto overwhelming overkill. BoTBG is beauitful, but no reason to take a squad of flesh hounds, just pop it on the BT and heralds. Hell, my seekers torn apart a Paladin squad somehow, so much rending!

I don't really think GK are OP, though I have to say my SM are looking a bit weak as the Codexs are coming out. I say that in the sense of I hate cheesy lists for SM because they are some of the most boring lists to play. It seems to me that most of the new codexs that come out tend to have this fashion of being able to pick out any units that look good on paper and on the field they can be played fairly well without looking too hard through the codex. Really I think all these codexs that come out look better then the last so people go crazy and buy up models to have this new OP army only to find that after a little bit of time and research their new OP army has some chinks in the power armor.