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http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html

Terrible stuff.

Oslo explosion: live coverage
Live coverage of events after a huge explosion in Oslo, Norway leaves seven dead, before a gunman opens fire at a youth camp west of Oslo, with unconfirmed reports of up to 30 dead.

• Seven dead in bomb blast in Oslo
• Police says at least nine killed in youth camp shooting
• Gunman on island of Utoya 'dressed as policeman'
• Prime Minister had been due to attend rally there but pulled out
• One man arrested, believed to be connected to both incidents

2039:

The New York Times is reporting that the terror group Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, is claiming responsibilty for the bombing in Oslo.

2056:

The foreign minister has also confirmed that the man arrested following the shooting on the island is Caucasian.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Missed the other thread... maybe not get this one shut down?

Bromsy wrote:Missed the other thread... maybe not get this one shut down?

Just keep the political/religious slander to a respectable zero and I'm sure everything will be fine...

On Topic: A real tragedy, although sometimes I'm forced to wonder whether the terrorists that claim responsibility are actually the ones to do it...IMO they should (and I have no doubt they will) launch some sort of investigation and tell us who really did it if it turns out the group who spoke out first didn't do it...

If it turns out that it is a Muslim group, would it still be slander if it is true? Would it be slander if he had said radical Muslim group? I thought the fact we were talking about a bombing sort of implied they would be a radical group.

Ahtman wrote: If it turns out that it is a Muslim group, would it still be slander if it is true? Would it be slander if he had said radical Muslim group? I thought the fact we were talking about a bombing sort of implied they would be a radical group.

This is true but instead of doing the sensible thing and putting that he thought it was radical/extremist Muslims instead of just the generalized word for the entire people (There happens to be a rather large distinction between the two groups) the OP of the last thread just put "Muslims" which can and was interpreted as religious slander/stereotyping...

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with blaming radical Muslim groups but generalizing it to include an entire culture is out of the question...

Instead of blaming it on Muslims... can we just blame it on dickheads?

I suppose it doesn't matter that Mattyrm was 100% correct? I said that he wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with Muslims. Not all Muslims, not that Muslims are inherently terroristic in nature, he inferred that based on fact that the motivations of a fair number of similar attacks in the last decade or so had some, shall we say, similarities. You'd see that is what he had said if the original post hadn't been edited before the thread was locked.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=1&hp

Islamic Extremists are in fact, Muslims (at least, that's how they identify themselves), and therefore there isn't really an issue with what he said. Perhaps if there had been a "the Muslims" in there or some kind of racial epithet or something all of these twisted panties would be called for. I have disagreed with mattyrm spectacularly in the past, but this time I think that the knee-jerk mob reaction against him to be a pretty sorry display.

Anyway, I am pretty horrified by this tragedy. I honestly don't know what there is to be done about this type of thing.

IBTL

The key point is there are about 1 billion Muslims in the world.

If they all joined in terrorist acts everyone would be dead.

About 1 billion Muslims did not do this act.

Don't blame any wide group for people who claim to act in its name.

Nothing can be done about "this kind of thing" because there is no way to get rid of hatred and loonies from the world.

Well, there is one way...

A minor point i'm sure, but....

... My skin is white ( or a close approximation thereof) however my ancestors undoubtedly had black skin; therefore i can commit all sorts of atrocities and then claim it was 'co's i'm black'?

Same argument applies to the [Mod Edit - Watch the language please.] blowing up cities, albeit with larger grey-areas...... They can say they're Muslims because they read a book once, but they aren't

Yeah, it was nutters. Their cause is irrelevant.

Best wishes to all Oslo based Dakkaites

Kilkrazy wrote:Don't blame any wide group for people who claim to act in its name.

Yeah, I agree with that. Terrorists don't represent the Muslim Community at large any more than the WBC represents Christians. I thought that went without saying.

I guess we're just having a difference in our psychological situation; I didn't interpret matty's statements as doing that.

Also, embarrassingly, I don't know who that is in that picture.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Wins thread.

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:Wins thread.

I would think the rescue workers would be the winners in a thread about people being killed by terrorists.

Monster Rain wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Don't blame any wide group for people who claim to act in its name.

I guess we're just having a difference in our psychological situation; I didn't interpret matty's statements as doing that.

Also, embarrassingly, I don't know who that is in that picture.

Judge Death out of the Judge Dredd comics.

The Dead Judges killed all life on their planet because life is the source of all crime.

I didn't mention mattyrm. That you assumed my comment related to him is perhaps indicative that his reputation precedes him.

Kilkrazy wrote:I didn't mention mattyrm. That you assumed my comment related to him is perhaps indicative that his reputation precedes him.

Or perhaps because we were discussing him and the previous post when you made a comment extremely related to that. You seem a bit disingenuous here; you know your post wasn't made in a vacuum, but in the context to the posts around it. It is not difficult to see why it would seem as if you are commenting on that as opposed to just a random factoid about Muslims.

Anyone blaming all of muslims or any other group (e.g. Japanese men, or Roman Catholic priests) for an outrage committed by a minute sub-set of that group, is operating in a state of false consciousness, whatever their username.

Kilkrazy wrote:Anyone blaming all of muslims or any other group (e.g. Japanese men, or Roman Catholic priests) for an outrage committed by a minute sub-set of that group, is operating in a state of false consciousness, whatever their username.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. You essentially posted the same thing earlier during a discussion about whether someone was doing just that, and then seemed shocked that people thought you were making a comment about that, and proceeded to use that as proof of some sort about the person in question.

Kilkrazy wrote:Anyone blaming all of muslims or any other group (e.g. Japanese men, or Roman Catholic priests) for an outrage committed by a minute sub-set of that group, is operating in a state of false consciousness, whatever their username.

Sure, but saying that you think that a clergy related sexual abuse scandal, based on recent history, might involve Catholics isn't a hateful statement.

I don't know where this "blaming of all muslims" to which you refer took place in any discussion relevant to this thread.

What about Gadaffi's threat of attacking Europe? http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/norway-bomb-blast-today-damages-prime-ministers-office-may-be-connected-to-norways-bombings-in-libya-to-oust-gaddafi/

Is this why it occurred?

Flashman wrote:Yeah, it was nutters. Their cause is irrelevant.

Not true.

The cause IS relevant, the cause is what makes them do these things in the first place! And deep down, you must know it, has the dreaded political correctness caused us all to take leave of our senses? And give away that which is the most important to us? Freedom of speech? What exactly is this "hate speech" nonsense that people keep talking about?

And before people start with ad hominem attacks because they cannot refute this with sense, it is not ignorant, nor slanderous, nor bigoted, nor racist, to state that their is an obvious logical pathway that leads from a persons belief in Islam (or any strongly held belief system) to carrying out an act violence.

It can cause good people to do bad things.

Numerous, intelligent, highly regarded educated people have pointed this out. Tens of thousands of them, be they high ranking politicians, professors, authors, why do people try to make out that even a slight distaste for this stuff automatically makes you a lunatic or a nazi?

The people that commit these attacks can even see themselves as moral individuals, because they CAN justify their actions with their most deeply held spiritual beliefs. If you think you have divine authority, then anything is fair game.

I am tired of being slandered with the ridiculous "ignorant" label, despite the fact I am the exact opposite of ignorant on this subject due to feeling so passionate about it, and I have done since the Luxor tourist massacre in 1997, the event that motivated me to join the Royal Marines and become a professional soldier, and read exhaustively on the topic. I then have my retorts deleted when I respond, and Im of the opinion that the MODs are flat out wrong on this, but its their trainset, so I wont whinge about it. Ill just mention it quietly then move on. I disagree with the harsh modding of people that don't wish to point out that anything people really really believe in can be negative for everyone else.

Ill bow out of this thread and let more "rational" people that aren't even remotely ignorant take over.

Ill just say this, if your really being honest, how many of you would agree with this statement?

Islam is a wonderful enlightening thing, it should be embraced by all people around the world who regard evidence and truth as more important than authority and revelation, and women, gay people and educators all around the world are better off thanks to its continued existence.

But that's the thing man, you feel passionate about, so you are not really the best person to ask. After all, if believing strongly in something causes you to commit violent acts, then wouldn't believing strongly that Muslims are the root of all evil motivate one to causing violence against Muslims? You hate Muslims, why should I listen to what you have to say?

Bromsy wrote:http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html

Terrible stuff.

Oslo explosion: live coverage
Live coverage of events after a huge explosion in Oslo, Norway leaves seven dead, before a gunman opens fire at a youth camp west of Oslo, with unconfirmed reports of up to 30 dead.

• Seven dead in bomb blast in Oslo
• Police says at least nine killed in youth camp shooting
• Gunman on island of Utoya 'dressed as policeman'
• Prime Minister had been due to attend rally there but pulled out
• One man arrested, believed to be connected to both incidents

2039:

The New York Times is reporting that the terror group Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, is claiming responsibilty for the bombing in Oslo.

2056:

The foreign minister has also confirmed that the man arrested following the shooting on the island is Caucasian.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Missed the other thread... maybe not get this one shut down?

NY Times now backing off the Islamic Terror angle. Seems like a McVeigh from more recent information.

Mike Noble wrote:But that's the thing man, you feel passionate about, so you are not really the best person to ask. After all, if believing strongly in something causes you to commit violent acts, then wouldn't believing strongly that Muslims are the root of all evil motivate one to causing violence against Muslims? You hate Muslims, why should I listen to what you have to say?

I dont hate them at all because its illogical, most Muslims aren't terrorists.

I just think its a negative thing as a whole because it increases the likelihood that you will be wacky as it gives you a logical pathway to carryi.....

But anyways, im bowing out remember.

Enjoy yourself!

Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but are most terrorists Muslims?

All religions give people a reason to do what they deem 'just'...

I guess that's what you are driving at?

Like most threads in of it's type, this thread can be summed up easily....

...Some dickheads (who might/might not be associated with a minority) did a thing that dickheads around the world do as a matter of course...

Poster A: I think subset humantype 3c perpretrated these crimes; here is website 5t backing up my thoughts

PosterB: Ah, PosterA, you are wrong.... Website 2y tells me that you are made of fail....

PosterC: 'this thread should sleep with the fishes as it has run it's course XD.

efarrer wrote:NY Times now backing off the Islamic Terror angle. Seems like a McVeigh from more recent information.

I just saw that. Here's more information on it.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/gunman-opens-fire-at-norway-labour-partys-youth-camp-on-utoya-island-near-oslo-16026724.html

This is an odd story. The police think that the two events (the shootings and the bombings) are related, and the "Helpers of the Global Jihad" claimed responsibility and then this happens.

They say the death toll on the island camp could be more than twenty; I hope that they are wrong.

J.Black wrote:Instead of blaming it on Muslims... can we just blame it on dickheads?

Sadly some people use the logic that these terrorists are Muslims, therefore all Muslims are terrorists.

The people that did this are dickheads works so much better imho

But Muslims are terrorists... Don't you see XD

Monster Rain wrote:

efarrer wrote:NY Times now backing off the Islamic Terror angle. Seems like a McVeigh from more recent information.

I just saw that. Here's more information on it.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/gunman-opens-fire-at-norway-labour-partys-youth-camp-on-utoya-island-near-oslo-16026724.html

This is an odd story. The police think that the two events (the shootings and the bombings) are related, and the "Helpers of the Global Jihad" claimed responsibility and then this happens.

They say the death toll on the island camp could be more than twenty; I hope that they are wrong.

All the Islamic terror groups will quickly claim responsibility for any attacks. You pretty much have to ignore the initial reports. I suspect the different IRA groups and provos did back in the day.

It's best immediately following a terror attack to wait for the story to emerge. IRC Norway has some problems with right wing extremists

The arrested suspect is named, Anders Behring Breivik, a 32 year old who's been active on islamc critical forums, he has himself said that he is a "nationalist"

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:
Wins thread.

If you believe so strongly in this, "Exalt It"

It's the Dakka version of "Like" buttons.

On Topic: Many people I spoke to last night didnt know where Oslo was.

It's a true shame when a European Capital is unknown until events such as this... a true indictment of the education system in Queensland.