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Im sick and tired of seeing the same old Space Wolf list.

Yey, lets Razorback rush the enemy woooohooo -_-

Ooooh yeeeah Lots and lots of cheap Long Fang Units ftw o.O

Its boring guys, i personally, run a Dreadnought/Drop Pod heavy list, purely because the Dreadnoughts can have Wolftooth Necklaces, always hits on a 3+

Its immense, i just slam them into my opponents ''skilled fighters'' and make them cry, these days most people are relying on their Dragos and Abaddons to pull them through.

Granted, i do use a Razorback and a Long fang unit, but my Razorback is purely as a cheap anti-tank platform and my Long Fangs consist of 2 Lascannons, for anti tank, 2 Plasma Cannons for anti everything else, and a Misslie Launcher to kill whatever they couldnt finish.

i realise this was fairly random but, i just dont want to lumped together with the ''generic Space Wolf player''

To be honest i have a razorwolf list, but i only play it in tournaments, in fun games i actually run 2 preds for heavy support, and a squad of long fangs, but i dont run the standard land speeder fast attack i run 2 Squads of thunder wolves , they are so mean especially when i get the saga of the warrior born going!!

I don't see what this has to do with army lists.....this seems more of a general discussion/random topic to me.

That said, this need to "stray from the norm" and "play something original" is not supported by the competitive play. When you have a game that is based around numbers and a random chance, there will always be one or two peak designs that capitalize most on those numbers, and compensate for the random chance. It's simple fact. If Weapon A does D6 damage and Weapon B does D6+1 damage, Weapon B is better, and will always statistically be better. It doesn't matter that occasionally Weapon A rolls a 6 and Weapon B rolls a 1. A statistical average will always put Weapon B ahead of Weapon A. Those of us building lists for tournaments or competitive play will almost always choose Weapon B, and that leads to homogenization of lists.

Being different simply to be different serves no purpose. There should be a reason behind the choices you make, and that reason should not simply be for the sake of those choices. If, for instance, you run a certain design of list that is not considered generally competitive because A) You really love the way it looks on the table and hope to win painting competititions and sportsmanship awards, or B) You really enjoy the fluff behind those unit selections and you have fun playing the list, or C) You have found that those unit selections are more useful in your local metagame because of a high saturation of one or two types of armies, then that is a perfectly valid reason and no reasonable person will harass you for making those choices. But if instead you run a list full of things considered non-competitive just for the sake of playing something nobody else plays, you are likely to be seen as a masochist or an easy target.

TLDR Version: Netlists are netlists. They are designed for competitive play. If you don't like them, play something else, but do it for the right reasons.

RatWolf wrote:Its immense, i just slam them into my opponents ''skilled fighters'' and make them cry, these days most people are relying on their Dragos and Abaddons to pull them through.

Competitive players certainly do not rely on units like Abaddon to "pull them through". Do you know what competitive players rely on for the most part? Units with duality, redundancy, reliability and mobility. Do you know why Mech/MSU is so strong? Because Vehicles are hard to kill and give you great mobility. Do you know why Long Fangs are so good? Because they're cheap, accurate, and the ubiquitous Missile Launcher can be used against Mech, MC and Hordes. See how that works? No matter what you're opponent is bringing, Long Fangs can contribute in some way. That's what competitive lists do.

Dreadnoughts in drop pods getting to assault afterwards? Because your opponent didn't bring Melta weapons for some reason?

Unless you actually understand all of this, and it's pretty clear that you don't, I wouldn't recommend making broad, sweeping statements about other peoples lists and playing styles.

Why are Dreadnoughts assaulting when they only have 2 attacks base anyway? Not like they're awesome in combat...

Apparently they beat Abaddon in CC. Who knew! They do hit on a 3+ after all.

I'm pretty much going to agree with Aldarionn on just about the first line and let the rest be part of said discussion.

The authors point of not wanting to be another Razorspammer is valid to an extent. Many Space Wolf players have found the basic net list wanting in a few regards and cry for variety more than anything. I, for one, have always been against missile launcher spam and pure razorspam. More and more, I am finding people with the same belief and the overall consensus is one major flaw and one minor flaw. The major flaw is that Missile Launchers, while ubiquitous, are too generalist sometimes for many tasks. The minor flaw is that it is boring as hell. With that said, many competitive lists have arisen that defy the norm in the past, present and future. Past GT winners such as Goatboy with his Thunderlord rush, recent GT winners like tony with solid Grey Hunter blocks and who knows what the future holds! The fact is, the tried and true lends itself to superiority; however, creativity should never be shunned if it is effective.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

unbeliever87 wrote:Apparently they beat Abaddon in CC. Who knew! They do hit on a 3+ after all.

Abaddon just go the smack laid down on him yo! lol.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:I'm pretty much going to agree with Aldarionn on just about the first line and let the rest be part of said discussion.

The authors point of not wanting to be another Razorspammer is valid to an extent. Many Space Wolf players have found the basic net list wanting in a few regards and cry for variety more than anything. I, for one, have always been against missile launcher spam and pure razorspam. More and more, I am finding people with the same belief and the overall consensus is one major flaw and one minor flaw. The major flaw is that Missile Launchers, while ubiquitous, are too generalist sometimes for many tasks. The minor flaw is that it is boring as hell. With that said, many competitive lists have arisen that defy the norm in the past, present and future. Past GT winners such as Goatboy with his Thunderlord rush, recent GT winners like tony with solid Grey Hunter blocks and who knows what the future holds! The fact is, the tried and true lends itself to superiority; however, creativity should never be shunned if it is effective.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I agree on Razorspam. I wouldn't do a Razorspam army again in any other Marine army I started, TBH I probably wouldn't do another Marine army as the other option is Rhinos, though these do play differently TBH. Some units however i.e Long Fangs just work no matter the list they go in and definately need taking.

What exactly is boring about it? I would say the only boring parts I find is when you cannot crack the tanks open, very annoying, and it ends up been a game of Tankhammer. I wouldn't say the list(s) are borring.

For the record, I rarely play "Razorspam". My lists have 3-4 Razorbacks, sure, but I also run at least 2 large units of Grey Hunters with Wolf Guard in Rhinos, usually lead by Rune Priests, and so far it has worked amazingly well.

The guy who came in 2nd at the dutch GT scored 98/100 battle points using 2x Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves, each attached to a pack of 2 Thunderwolves, and supported them with a pair of Rune Priests leading full Grey Hunter blocks in Rhinos and several packs of Long Fangs. That's far from the standard netlist with the exception of the Long Fangs, but he absolutely cleaned house at the tournament. The only reason he didn't win was because he had a horrible paintjob and apparently people screwed him over on sportsmanship (which was apparently decent and nowhere near worthy of the low scores he got).

I mention this because it proves that there is more than one formula to build a competitive list, and while the game certainly encourages homogenization of lists by virtue of the point system, it's possible to build something a bit more original and still remain competitive.

TBH if I did Space Wolves it would be Thunderwolves with Long Fang ranged support and Hunters in Rhinos. Any points I would consider Blood Claws too.

I hate sportsmanship when people rate low, sucks balls. Some idiots just do it because they lost.

As for formula you are correct, not everything needs to be Razorbacks, can be Rhinos too you know

If anything, I think the prevalence of Razorspam is due to the point and shoot netaure of the army. You rely predominately on a single phase of the game to win whereas other armies don't need this. Other builds allow for tactical flexibility and to make use of more than one phase of the game.

We see a lot of razorbacks because they're just plain good. They perform two roles well. They project long range firepower across the table to neutralize your opponent's armor, making them slow and vulnerable, and they also protect and ferry around your troops, keeping them safe and maneuverable.

@OP: If you want to be different, more power to you. But maybe you could start a thread dedicated to discussing other options available to SWs, rather than spending most of your post ranting about razorspam and longfangs and the uncreative players who utilize them.

The cookie cutter Space Wolf list is more at home in tournaments, and isn't as prevalent as it appears on the Internet. I've never run anything approximate to it with my Wolves, and have no intent to. The best way to state your opinion is to keep playing with the army you have and just avoid building the razorback/longfang spam list.

I dislike this thread...

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't all Marines do razor back spam, and drop pods, and devastator squads? Granted, it is a bit different but the concept the same.

Crom wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but can't all Marines do razor back spam, and drop pods, and devastator squads? Granted, it is a bit different but the concept the same.

Yeah they can but it's the GH squads that really give it power.

purplefood wrote:

Crom wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but can't all Marines do razor back spam, and drop pods, and devastator squads? Granted, it is a bit different but the concept the same.

Yeah they can but it's the GH squads that really give it power.

Why is that, because of outfitting options? I mean I have a rather large Space Wolf army, but I built it back in 2nd edition. I haven't really looked at any of the 5th edition marine books outside of Space Wolves. Though I have skimmed through some of them.

Space Wolves have more weapons than other marines, and more special rules, by default for cheaper.

They also have more options.

Drive transport up, get out and rapid fire is the tactic de jour of Space Marines. When Grey Hunters do it via Razorback, they can include a special weapon (Tac Marines can't without leaving untransported marines somewhere else). Then when they get charged by the survivors, they not only have 2 weapons, but also counter attack to have triple the number of attacks of Tactical Marines.

They get all this for the cost increase of -1 point.

Rat- Sorry you feel this way, bro. I know it can get a little tiresome when you see a competitive list fielded over and over again. I agree that experimentation is nice, if you are in competitive play, don't be a slave to originality. There is no need to re-invent the wheel, as it were. Th razorwolf list persists because it's a good list.

As a long time space wolf player I have to say I'm tired of seeing all the hate. But before someone starts nerd raging at me for that I will say I also hate the very reason why so many people hate them. I personally prefer to try and run them a lot more fluffy. I have one unit of long fangs and not a sigle missle launcher. I prefer to run several full strength squads of grey hunters and blood claws. A few Wolf Gaurd in term armour and a dreadnought or two. I use a couple drop pods, a land raider redeemer, and 1 razorback as extra anti-armour and it is for the long fangs. But please let's chill with the hate for a few seconds at least. Put the nerd ragery away because we all know that as soon as the new space marine codex comes out it will be even more over the top as the current space wolf codex is.

I don't mind too much when the BA and SW players all use the same list over and over (as long as it isn't the same list for all three games of a tournament- that gets old- but ba, sw, ba or similar is bearable.) as it makes beating them all the easier for the sheer amount of practise you get vs that list, and you have a hope of knowing all the special rules the unit shave after playing against it a few dozen times.

Also some army builds make longfangspam cry

Commisar Wolfie wrote:As a long time space wolf player I have to say I'm tired of seeing all the hate. But before someone starts nerd raging at me for that I will say I also hate the very reason why so many people hate them. I personally prefer to try and run them a lot more fluffy. I have one unit of long fangs and not a sigle missle launcher. I prefer to run several full strength squads of grey hunters and blood claws. A few Wolf Gaurd in term armour and a dreadnought or two. I use a couple drop pods, a land raider redeemer, and 1 razorback as extra anti-armour and it is for the long fangs. But please let's chill with the hate for a few seconds at least. Put the nerd ragery away because we all know that as soon as the new space marine codex comes out it will be even more over the top as the current space wolf codex is.

Try running Logan Grimnar, 60 Terminators and 4 Land Raiders...
Managed it with proxies once. Fun times.

Im not saying that there isn't some fun to the new codex I'm just not as happy with it as i was with the old one. The new one is like they are trying just so very hard.

I agree with Wolfie. Space Wolves are one of the greatest armies because you can tailor your force however you want based on the fluff. If you like a Wolf Lord that lives for the thrill of the hunt, take some Wolf Scouts and maybe a Lone Wolf, if you like things that go boom, take some Long Fangs or a Vindicator, or if you like speed take Thunderwolves and transports.

I think the main problem that the OP has might be that you are playing in a "less than friendly environment" for more creative lists. I played in a tournament with a list that I felt was relatively competitive, but I got tabled on turn 3 just because of how powerful my opponents army was. I was OK with the loss because I didnt craft my list to be all out bananas, I chose units that I enjoyed and got pummeled for doing so. People don't pay to enter tournaments to play for fun lists usually, they pay to win. The lists they create usually reflect that desire to win, and that is why you will always see the most effective choices present in those type of lists.

I personally like playing people who share some sort of fluff-based, unit selection method because the game often is more dynamic and interesting if a less often taken model saves the day! Maybe try to find someone who feels the same way and agree to play a game with lists that are less competitive. I unfortunately doubt you will find many more that agree with your opinion online... :(

unbeliever87 wrote:

RatWolf wrote:Its immense, i just slam them into my opponents ''skilled fighters'' and make them cry, these days most people are relying on their Dragos and Abaddons to pull them through.

Competitive players certainly do not rely on units like Abaddon to "pull them through". Do you know what competitive players rely on for the most part? Units with duality, redundancy, reliability and mobility. Do you know why Mech/MSU is so strong? Because Vehicles are hard to kill and give you great mobility. Do you know why Long Fangs are so good? Because they're cheap, accurate, and the ubiquitous Missile Launcher can be used against Mech, MC and Hordes. See how that works? No matter what you're opponent is bringing, Long Fangs can contribute in some way. That's what competitive lists do.

Dreadnoughts in drop pods getting to assault afterwards? Because your opponent didn't bring Melta weapons for some reason?

Unless you actually understand all of this, and it's pretty clear that you don't, I wouldn't recommend making broad, sweeping statements about other peoples lists and playing styles.

when he says about Abbadon pulling through he means how i use Abbadon (which i didn't realise untill now thanks for the tactic summary )

and he dose know his lists he just doesn't like seeing the same list over-and-over again its dead repetitive and predictable and you should actually see his dreadnought rip apart my precious deffy on his turn and when you say melta weaponry how can you use melta weaponry on his turn eh?

what he wants is a competitive but not a predictable list so while you go on telling him that he doesn't know his lists next time read what he trying to say before you give him a lecture about how long fangs are tactical because he already knows how tactical they are.

oh and before i forget Ratwolf have an army full of dreads in drop pods mainly because that's cool and not repetitive.

Loganwing is pretty good...
In fact an all wolf guard drop pod army has the potential to be as funny as a barrel of accountant monkeys with tommy guns and welsh accents...

Do you know how to beat an all drop pod list? Reserve your whole army, or set up a DS defence (bubblewrapping) if you have enough disposable bodies or the terrain allows it.

He wants a competitive list that deviates from the norm? Fantastic. Try making one then post it up here for feedback. Otherwise this is just a gigantic whine thread providing nothing constructive to anyone.

By the way - Dreadnoughts can't assault the turn they drop down. Knowing the rules helps.

This is my half drop pod list based on Sven Bloodhowls company.

Wolf Lord w/ Wolf guard in Drop pod

Rune Priest w/ Blood Claws in Drop Pod

Wolf Scouts

Grey hunters in Razor back

Grey hunters in Razor back

Rune Priest w/ a squad of bikes modelled after that Dan Abnett comic

Long fangs in Drop Pod

Long fangs in Drop Pod


I get called a bandwagoner and cheese monger, by most of the incompetent unskilled players I meet. But against anyone that does not slot into the hateful stereotype of a gamer, its alot of fun. I mostly go for the heroic actions rather than the tactical ones. Like assaulting a bloodthirster instead of shooting it etc

unbeliever87 wrote:Do you know how to beat an all drop pod list?

lascannons help lots

also he put in a venerable in his drop pod so since i dont have a SW codex im assuming that it can.

oh and i know the rules as well thank you (i have had to since I have a nid friend who cheats)

If you knoe the rules why you saying about Dreadnoughts assaulting when they cannot assault from a Pod? If they're assaulting from a Pod then you have a chance to shoot them in your following shooting phase before he can move his Dreadnoughts again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unholy_Martyr wrote:If anything, I think the prevalence of Razorspam is due to the point and shoot netaure of the army. You rely predominately on a single phase of the game to win whereas other armies don't need this. Other builds allow for tactical flexibility and to make use of more than one phase of the game.

Blood Angels can do Razorbacks and assault quite nicely giving plenty of tactical flexibility