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Hi all,

I think I'll start Chaos Space Marines and buy the Battleforce to have a few models to build upon. What would you guys recommend to buy as well? What would be the best, a unit of Plague Marines? What HQ unit would be the best to start with? I won't buy too much in addition to the Battleforce at this point, so please think of the absolute must-haves

My girlfriend plays Chaos Daemons, could I use any models of her army? I don't have the CSM codex yet, so please don't assume I know anything about CSM

Most people will quickly recommend Obliterators as well as a Sorcerer Lord. What kind of army are you really wanting to make with them? Close combat heavy, balanced, shooty? Were you wanting to go
for a specific legion?

Coincidentally, I just started CSM this week as well, so I'd like to hear what people say in this thread as well.

My list so far:
9 berzerkers
14 thousand sons
6 terminators
8 tacticals
2 aspiring champions
1 multi-melta CSM (why is the option not in the codex if the model exists?)
1 HB CSM
1 plasma gun CSM
1 landraider
1 vindicator

I can also proxy with 2 SM dreadnoughts and 1 Epik 40K Warlord titan, all for chaos dreadnoughts.

The intended theme of my army is pure CSMs (no daemons, no possessed) as a force of pirates and raiders. Essentially, they are a collection of opportunists, possibly even from the same fallen younger chapter, who band together for profit but have varying preferences in their chaos allegiance, ergo the Chaos Undivided angle.

Is this workable at all? Do I have to have a daemon prince or two? What competitive builds are there?

I think I'll prefer a balanced army, my first goal will probably be to kick a certain IG player in the behind who gives my Eldar a pretty hard time with his mech army.

So probably what will give me the most fun in the first time is to have some units that are not as squishy as Eldar *g*

Well reading up on CSM tactica will give you all the basics:

you need a HQ - most people concur a Daemon Prince is the best choice, and your girlfriend might have one in her army?

you want to beef out your troop choices too, beyond the 15 CSM in the battleforce. Get Berserkers if you want close combat, plague marines if you want objective holders, thousand sons or noise marines if you want to run out of points. Get Rhinos for your squads if you can stomach the cost for a 35 point model!

like zale said, most people recommend obliterators for heavy support as theyre very versatile. vindicators with daemonic possession can be fun to play though.

Read through the codex, think of how you would want to play, and go with the models to suit that.

Good luck!

I would say don't go with the daemon prince, unless you know exactly what you are getting... Its not the monster it was in 4th, and many people still think it is. If you are taking it for a lash source, a sorcerer is easier to protect. If you are taking it for CC purposes, maybe a unit would be a better choice?

Obliteraters are also one of those "used to be better units" that isn't as good these days as people make them out to be. Too points intensive in 2 wound ID possible models, also it puts too much pressure for anti tank into just 3 slots.

The Choas FOC is really clunky, and full of overpriced units, you can't ever really take all that you want, if you take only specialized units, you will have obvious lynchpins for you enemy to target, since you have so few units covering that role. How to fix this? Take all similar units of similar value, with similar generalist load outs.

Example? HQs (your choice, keep them cheap and simple probably, maybe build for CC only) Elite: chosen with flamers and meltas, troops: regular or plagues with melta, and/or noise with blastmaster, HS, havocs with similar loadout to the chosen. Everything in rhinos, preferably with havoc lauchers or a combi weapon.

Sounds kinda boring doesn't it? It is, but it gives you a bunch of firepower, mobility, and a decent model count. Something that most CSM lack at least 2 of.

Thanks for the hints so far. I don't think that sounds boring. Building an efficient army for a local metagame can be boring with every army. I like to splash in units I like just for their flavour

How about CSM vehicles? Are there any must haves or no gos?

Well, I'd go for one or two Daemon Princes is games less than 2000 pts. In larger games, Sorcerers are the better choice.
Moreover, I'd take CSM as troops, 10 Marines with 2 meltas, Rhino, and IoGC is a good choice,
unless you want to go for a themed army.
Then PM are one of the best choices, 7 PM w/ 2 meltas, Rhino, or 5 PM w/ 2 plasma guns camping on an objective.
Obliterators are one of the best fire support units in the game:
grab as many as you can, 3x2 is a good number.

I still think Daemon Princes are the best HQ points for points. I just dont find lords that effective, and personally I dont like using characters, that's a personal thing though.

As for vehicles, I personally like taking preds and vindicators, but again that's totally personal and not what most would consider competitive. If you do go for preds then autocannon with heavy bolters, or autocannon with lascannons are usually the best set ups. Some people also say defilers are good but I've never tried them out.

As notabot187 said, chosen are a good elites choice, I've had good experiences with them, two units of 5 with meltaguns outflanking and taking out a lifta wagon and megadred in turn 2, good stuff! Termicide units can also be good for destroying some vehicles to turn the game.


I think the main thing to remember with CSM is that it is very easy to use up all of your points and leave yourself short in model count. Try and resist the urge to pimp out all your squads to the max, only take upgrades if you have a strategic use for them.

A lot of people will bash the DP but he's the only one we've got other than Abbadon with eternal warrior. One big thing you have to learn early is that Chaos is all about target saturation. The DP is not the end al be all HQ but he also can stay pretty cheap for what he is IMHO and he provides a distraction for your rhino equipped squads. You will undoubtedly hear you should use Kharn as well, I have no problem recommending him as long as you aren't wanting to stick to a specific legion etc.. Point for point wise its hard to find an equivelent sledghammer of an HQ like Kharn in other armies, he's quite a beast. As far as vehicles as mentioned above Vindicators with deamonic possession rock and I'm quite the fan of defilers. We also have an amazing selection of troop choices. I would familiarize yourself with the codex before buying anything. To my knowledge the battle force still comes with possessed doesnt it? I like them but a lot of people on dakka are not a fan may be a factor worth considering. Hope this helps
edly hear you should use Kharn as well, I have no problem recommending him as long as you aren't wanting to stick to a specific legion etc.. Point for point wise its hard to find an equivelent sledghammer of an HQ like Kharn in other armies, he's quite a beast. As far as vehicles as mentioned above Vindicators with deamonic possession rock and I'm quite the fan of defilers. We also have an amazing selection of troop choices. I would familiarize yourself with the codex before buying anything. To my knowledge the battle force still comes with possessed doesnt it? I like them but a lot of people on dakka are not a fan may be a factor worth considering. Hope this helps

Thanks for the helpful hints so far I am not a fan of limitating my strategic possibilities by sticking to themes or legions (I also use Prince Yriel in my mainly Ulthwe themed army, guess he just came to pay a visit or the battle is so important that Ulthwe got support). So I'll just buy and use any models that are good or that I like.

Another question, which ones are the most versatile units for CSM? Or, phrased otherwise: which units would you buy/list if you don't know yet what opponent you will battle

5 chosen in a rhino with 2-3 melta and a flamer, rhino with havoc laucher or combi weapon. Havocs with same. Troops would be plagues with 2 meltas in similar rhino, HQ would be sorcerer with warptime or lash. FA are generally garbage for chaos, though you can make lists based upon raptors or bikers (but requires dedicating the entire list to supporting them, and they are very costly to buy in $).

In terms of pure versatility, chosen units and havoc units can be configured with just about any relevant weapons options, and they don't really require buying any specialized kits to make them either. So they are versatile in list building, on the table, and in modeling. So pick what kind of troops you want, and get a bunch of chosen and similarly geared havocs, and the rhinos for them. Tons of rhinos. At least 10 lol.

The Problem with other chaos vehicles is they don't have a razorback equivalent, the landraider is nerfed compared to vanilla, the dreads aren't good (regular one goes crazy, see codex orks for how bad random units are generally), the defiler is a hit or miss unit in the HS slot where you need reliable performance, and the pred, while not bad, doesn't go the distance you need in a chaos list (though an autolas buid isn't bad). Vindicators aren't too bad, but rather pricey for how reliable they are (have to advance where side shots are possible, gets usually 1 turn of shooting in before losing weapon or worse is my experience).

There is a way to make dreads work, but its the nerfed version of a vanilla marine dread bash list, 3 elite dreads, 3 defilers. Target saturation right there! But you have to really know the rules for how dreads work and fire frenzy works, don't just listen to what the local scrubs think how it should work, look really close at the LOS and dreads rules.

Generally, there are several ways to play CSM. First, a Rhino based army with Chosen, CSM, and Havocs (with special weapons - flamers, plasma guns, meltas, no mixing) in Rhinos led by two Sorcerers w/ MoS, lash is a competitive army. Second, an MC-based army with two winged DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons as troops is still viable - but some might object here. Third, a PM based army with PM squads in Rhinos, Obliterators, and winged lash DPs.

What are the units you refer to as "chosen" named exactly? I can't find them at GW or wayland games. Please remember I do not have the codex yet (and I never played against CSM, nobody around happens to play them), so I will most likely not know any nicknames. Sorry

Murenius wrote:What are the units you refer to as "chosen" named exactly? I can't find them at GW or wayland games. Please remember I do not have the codex yet (and I never played against CSM, nobody around happens to play them), so I will most likely not know any nicknames. Sorry

Chosen are basically CSMs that are more experienced and have better weapon options. They can be built from your standard CSM troop box with extras added.

Murenius wrote:What are the units you refer to as "chosen" named exactly? I can't find them at GW or wayland games. Please remember I do not have the codex yet (and I never played against CSM, nobody around happens to play them), so I will most likely not know any nicknames. Sorry

They are just basic CSM with expanded access to the armory, that take up an elite slot.

Ahh, allright, thanks a lot I have to ask this cause I want to include some stuff like that in the order which will also include the codex.

Chosen are elites that can take one heavy and 4 special weapons or 5 special weapons in a 5-10 squad. Very importantly, they can also infiltrate.

I am just starting my CSM army, but one scenario that keeps coming up in my mind is a squad with 5 melta guns infiltrating in cover next to a squad of artillery or heavy tanks. First turn BBQ. I wonder if people run these, or is it too obvious to be effective?

Infiltrator squads also scream to me "Give us an icon, so we can bring more to us!" I am just not sure if they will live long enough for the terminators to DS next to them without scatter. Maybe an icon of Tzeentch for a 5++? In a 10-men squad, that would be only 4 pts per model. After all, everything will be firing at them like mad.

Infiltration might work, but outflanking might be tactically more reliable. Especially if you give them a rhino, makes the enemy really think hard about putting important units on the flanks. Forcing your opponent to bunch up in the middle can play nicely into chaos's hand.

If you are looking for some chaos models, I have a number of CSM for sale

[/shameless plug]

I personally really love to have DP's with wings with a bodyguard of 5 raptors with 2 meltaguns (they pop transports and allow the DP to assault the squishy inside and also form a charge shield for the DP as well).

Backing this up I have a solid line of CSM in rhinos, and a couple of havoc squads with 4x AC's or 4x ML's or 4x HB.

Chosen with melta guns can ruin your day. Outflank is usually more viable an option. Infiltrators really just hope for first turn and if that's missed, usually dead by your first turn. Chaos is all about synergy though you just kind of have to find what works well for you and your play style. If you are good with conversions you really can't go wrong with buying just standard Chaos marines and playing a bit to find if you want to use them for something else like berzerkers/plague marines.

Just because you can infiltrate doesn't mean you have to infiltrate up close and personal. I see players do this all the time in trying to infiltrate a melta squad right up close only to get blasted off the table before they can do anything. why not take 3, 5 man chosen squads with a lascannon or missile launcher and a few plasma guns and infiltrate them on a far side of the board giving them side armor shots to transports. or if you deploy your long range anti armor on the board in one corner a lot of times your opponent will deploy his armored units with his front armor facing you. this allows you to place your infiltrators on the far board edge forcing your opponent to to risk exposing his rear armor. and if he sends something to deal with the threat in his backfield more than likely that unit wont be engaging your main force and now he is playing reactively which gives you the upper hand.

The battleforce is a great way to start out. Actually I think 2 Chaos Battleforces and maybe 1 Daemon Prince would be an extremely potent beginning to a force. 2 Squads of berzerkers in Rhinos. 2 Squads of Tacticals giving covering fire. A squad of 10 possessed to beat stuff in close combat. and oh ya convert the 2 5 man Tac Squads into Chosen and put 4 Meltas in there for your Anti-tank.

That in my opinion is the best start for a Chaos army at the amount of money you would spend on what I mentioned before. or if you dont want to do that just get Kharn and let him roll around town with the Berzerkers. So there you save some money by waiting on the daemon prince.

A friend of mine plays a really silly army consisting of 3 possessed Land Raiders with 8 Berzerkers each and Kharn, and a unit or two (depending on points) of Noise Marines. Sometimes one Berzerker unit is accompanied by a Lash Sorceror.

Silly army but he has fun with it.

At 1,850 I run something pretty standard...

2 Lash Sorcerors, 3x3 Obliterators, 3x5 Plague Marines w/ 2 Meltaguns in a Rhino, 1x5 Plague marines w/ 2 Plasma Guns in a Rhino, and 1x8 Berzerkers inc. Skull Champ w/ Power Weapon in a Rhino.

It really gives Deathwing and armies with poor psychic defense a hard time.

Great input, thanks a lot guys

Easily I do believe that the Chaos Battleforce has the best value of all the battleforces considering what you get in them.

I wouldn't get the battleforce for 1 reason possessed marines. They are useless there powers are unpredictable and random if they will work or not. So as many people say battleforces are amazing if you want everything in them but I just don't think possessed are worth it they die easily and aren't even average in any way.

What you want to do with the Possessed, is to use bits from them throughout the rest of your force, to make a nicely personlised army. Or you could simply save them in your bits box, because they don't make a great choice in terms of combat, because they are just too unpredictable.

My suggestion for essential CSM units for a balanced force:

1 CSM squad, 1 Bezerker squad, 1 Plague Marines squad, 1 Daemon Prince, 3 Obliterators, 3 Rhinos.

These will be the core of your army, and many of them can be Ebayed for cheap, or converted. You can basically make the troops from any CSM squad with a little green stuff, though there is absolutely no reason not to get proper bezerkers, they cost the same and are amazing. I generally suggest all sargents to have power firsts, and to model the plague marines with plasma guns, as they are the best troops in the game to use plasmas(due to Feel No Pain making them safe to the risk of plasmas overheating). CSMs should have 2 meltas.

After that set, you got 3 troops, one of them which can double as Chosen for when you don't need a troop heavy list. The rest is up to you, and I would suggest you go for units you like, since you have a really solid core. I personally run a Defiler and Vindicator since I like the models, but 2 Vindicators is generally a better choice, but if boring. Technically the most powerful choice is 6 more Obliterators, but spamming units is really boring, Chaos is all about variety. You'll do fine in a more varied list.

I would also suggest later on to get a set of Terminators, 3-4 of which will deep strike with full combi-meltas and maybe a heavy flamer and a chain fist for suicide missions, but again it's not essential.

Other HQs worth getting are the Sorcerer, Kharn, and Abaddon, though Abby is for big games only.

Daemons/fast attack/Other Heavies I would save till you've played around a bit. They are not THAT versatile, but interesting to play with. I have fun with bikes, and occationally I like playing a list who is based on summoning truckloads of daemons, but its weaker than a classic balanced one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS. what winner says is right, only get the battleforce if you wanna use the possesed bits for conversions, or you dont mind a substandard unit. Possesed are terribad, but they are fairly fun.

I would suggest ebay for bezerkers and normals CSMs, as well as rhinos and Oblits. There are a LOT of cheap zerkers out there.

Check this out:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330980.page#2174757