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So, I am having 0 success with my Grey Knights. Last night, went up against my buddies Dark Eldar army. My other buddy who plays daemons was there as well, so we thought for fun, we'd make it a 1v1v1 where the daemons would come in randomly and just kill anyone. We played 1500pts for me and the DE player, and 1000pts for the Daemons. What it turned out to be was the Daemons and me vs the Dark Eldar, and he destroyed me. In fact, I probably would have been tabled by turn 3 if it wasn't for the Daemons speed bump he ran over.

I was running

Brotherhood Champ
Coateaz
2x Jokearo + 3 melta warriors in Chimera
10 x Death cult assasins in Stormraven
Venerable dread with 2 x Autocannons
Regular dread with 2 x Autocannons
5x Grey Knights w/ psycannon in Psyback
5x Grey Knights w/ psycannon in Psyback


He blew up my vehicles right away, and just picked off my guys. I guess luck was on his side to with always having a 5++ on his vehicles and always making it.

My biggest problem is, I have no clue how to play this army. Do I sit back and shoot? Do I charge up and attack? What do I do :S

Edit. I've had a lot of helpful replies. If you're going to reply, please read the other replies first so I don't have to keep repeating myself
Thank you.

I dont play GK, but i can tell you ... you need more troops ... Death Cult assassins? Seriously man

Yea DCA's. 20 (30 on the charge) S4 I6 power weapon attacks. For 150 points. And I had 4 troop choices for a 1500 pt list.

Well, you were playing DE, so, these guys move fast, dont really hit that hard physically, do a fiar few attacks, and only start to get ''stay-alive-able'' after they've killed their first target.

For a start, your storm bolters would go through allll their standard armour, so, more Grey Knights would be good.

Power Weapons vs DE are only going to come into play if they get thier first pain token, aside from that, i'd just unload a ton of storm bolter then assault them.

Your Autocannons SHOULD have been able to drop any of their trasports, so good call there . . .

Tbh, ive played against Coteaz, and in my honest opinion ... he's not THAT good.

As for the monkeys, what do they do?

It largely depends on what type of DE army he brought as you only have 6 vehicles in this army, and only 3 being transports. I know id I played you with my DE I would pop all of theose transports, use wyches to tie up the dreads and stay out of your 24in threat range.

Grey knights is a mid range shooting army with strong counter attack capabilities. Your strategy should be to get your PA knights to within 24 inches and hose his things down. Dark eldar help with that because they bring the fight straight to you. Looking at your list I can't say much for the inquisition guys cuz i haven't used them, but strike squads are crap. Change your brotherhood champion to Crowe and take 2 squads of purifiers. They get more attacks, more psycannons, cleansing flame and cheaper upgrades. As for psybacks, I prefer base rhinos. They are cheaper and your two purifiers with psycannons can fire out of the ports. Dreads look good. Try to keep them in the back and in cover.

Jamora wrote:So, I am having 0 success with my Grey Knights. Last night, went up against my buddies Dark Eldar army. My other buddy who plays daemons was there as well, so we thought for fun, we'd make it a 1v1v1 where the daemons would come in randomly and just kill anyone. We played 1500pts for me and the DE player, and 1000pts for the Daemons. What it turned out to be was the Daemons and me vs the Dark Eldar, and he destroyed me. In fact, I probably would have been tabled by turn 3 if it wasn't for the Daemons speed bump he ran over.

I was running

Brotherhood Champ
Coateaz
2x Jokearo + 3 melta warriors in Chimera
10 x Death cult assasins in Stormraven
Venerable dread with 2 x Autocannons
Regular dread with 2 x Autocannons
5x Grey Knights w/ psycannon in Psyback
5x Grey Knights w/ psycannon in Psyback


He blew up my vehicles right away, and just picked off my guys. I guess luck was on his side to with always having a 5++ on his vehicles and always making it.

My biggest problem is, I have no clue how to play this army. Do I sit back and shoot? Do I charge up and attack? What do I do :S

Most players would go with a 3 crusader/7dca mix

Storm ravens are a difficult unit to master

If you really want to play with a monkey go with 1 squad of servitors with a monkey and coteaz attached to prevent servo lock. Try to stick with just 1. Monkey per unit, they are expensive.

Dump the vendread for a 3rd regular dread.

Play more games, gk is actually not a user friendly meq army. It is a powerful dex, but aside from the psylfmen its not user friendly.

strike squads are not crap. Crowe on the other hand, is pretty crap. Unless you base your list around him then he's going to be a free kill point. Psybacks also have a place in grey knight armies, namely decent fire above 24 inches.

I do agree that grey knights are a mid range shooty army. The best way to combat dark eldar is by adding in longer range fire that can de-mech them as soon as possible, so your psyflemen and the psybacks are both good choices.

The main benefits of death cult assassins are that they will generally strike before their opponents and negate armour, but against dark eldar, this isn't going to be that much help because their combat units will strike before you and they have poor amour, so running into them with the death cult isn't the best idea. Using them as a counter attack unit is more likely to bring you success.

Back to strike squads, consider getting 2 full strike squad units with psycannons and psybolt ammo with psybacks. These come in around 500 but provide excellent firepower for a relatively cheap unit.
Hiding grey knights in vehicles plays against the strength of the codex, ie. lots of assault weapons, so grey knights do not play the same way that other mech-marine armies play.

Sorry about this post, it is not very coherant but i have tried to get a few points in.

If you are interested, I know of several resources for grey knights tactica that you might find useful. Just let me know and I'll link them.

I'd love those links Bedeporter. Anything to make me a better player

Jamora 1 note that know one seems to have caught is you are devalueing DCA.

DCA have 2 attacks base + 2 powers weapons, this means with 10 x DCA they have 30 attacks and 40 on the charge. not the 20/30 you said you were playing them as.

Bedeporter you can't stuff 10 guys in psybacks because of troop capacity limits. Psybacks are something that's been debated since the codex was released. I personally prefer rhinos because I can stick 2 psycannons out and get 4 shots on the move plus I don't like putting a lot of points into troop transports that could be popped first turn. As for Crowe, nobody really likes him but he can still be good. Have him hug the back of rhino and stroll forward and use him as an independent character/ monstrous creature killer. I'd trade my Crowe for a hive tyrant or something equally destructive any day. Heck even a tarpit model. I've read battle reports where people charge him into a unit just to use his ability to re roll saves and keep a unit locked in combat and Crowe stilled lived! Purifiers cleansing flame ability can even make up for low model count.

It looks like you are trying to be both ranged and close combat at the same time. I've found that you need to be either strong ranged with a countercharge unit, or strong close combat with just enough ranged weapons to bring down fast transports... like Dark Eldar have.

Thinking this way, GK bring their own countercharge as it is... power weapons, psy powers, etc. So I'd drop the Brother Champ (don't need 2 HQ at 1.5k) the DCA's and the Stormraven. Add in more Melta-Chimeras, Knights with Razorbacks, and Riflemen.

Don't forget that against Dark Eldar, range is your friend. Line up at the board edge and use your Riflemen range to force him to come to you if the terrain is open. Don't just charge ahead and let his anti-armor toys rip you open.

Bro champs are not so good. Jokearo are not a good combo with melta warriors. Jokearo are a good combo with servitors, if you stick an inquisitor with them. Melta warriors are good by themselves or with DCA/crusaders. DCA are better when they have some crusaders with them. Those autocannon dreads had better have psyammunition.

I think that you could re-arrange your transports and a have a more effective army.


1) Coteaz + Jokaero unit in a Chimera works well for me. Keep it.


2) Henchmen Assault Squads. They come in 2 forms.

a) The "Henchstar", 5 DCA + 5 Crusaders + Rad-Hammer Character (either Xeno Inq or Techmarine)
Deadly in combat, durable, and probably the best way to go for a large squad
You will probably want a Storm Raven or Land Raider for a squad like this. The issue is that SR and LR have HUGE target priority issues if you only take one of them.

b) The "one and done" squad. 5-6 DCA + Razorback. (Probably Heavy Bolter+Psybolt Ammo)
this gives you shooting at range, and 5 DCA are very cheap and are enough to kill most of a unit of marines on the charge. They only need to kill one unit to be worth while.



3) Strike Squad: I think these guys work best in 10 man units in a Rhino. 2 Psycannons, and Psybolt Ammo as a maybel. With that they are durable, and they have enough attack in close combat to start to be a threat as well. Shoot first, kill a bunch of dudes, then attack and finish stuff off.



I think that the Bro-Champ is just not good. Take a Xeno Inquisitor for close combat buffs instead.

A good second HQ is a Librarian. He can ride in the Chimera with Coteaz and the Jokaero

Quicksilver is great for Strike Squads, as they do not need halberds to hit first.
Might of Titan is death incarnate to vehicles.
Sanctuary is great as well (but you already have it with coteaz)
Shrouding is good so all of your tanks can get a 5+ Cover save. (maybe even a 3+ if you use smoke)
Summoning is worth thinking about as you can combine it with a mystic so you do not scatter.

That being said, the Librarian in not needed in a list like this.


Here is what I think your list could look like instead. (rough Estimate, not exact points or anything)

Coteaz + Jokaero unit + Chimera

5 DCA + Razorback
5 DCA + Razorback

10 Strikers + Rhino
10 Strikers + Rhino

Add Psy-rifle Dreads to taste. Consider a Librarian

Essentially you have a shooting list with the Strikers, Dreads, Jokearo, and transports.
The DCA are counter charge units, taking out whatever makes it to your lines. Sanctuary (from coteaz) helps to protect against Massed assaults as well

Why is it a 5++ with the libby? I thought you only got a 6++ out in the open?

Why would you take a venerable rifleman dread if you have open slots for other regular dreads? Thats really my only comment...

Because Ven Dreads are better.

Lukus83 wrote:Because Ven Dreads are better.

But you're not really getting any benefit for the extra cost if your only weapons are 2 twin-linked autocannons...

Venerable means much greater resilience against damaging hits. You decrease the probability of getting destroyed results, turning them into shaken/stunned sometimes, which you can shake off. Longer survival means more damage out. The increased reliability on ballistic skill is icing on the Venerable cake.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Because Ven Dreads are better.

But you're not really getting any benefit for the extra cost if your only weapons are 2 twin-linked autocannons...

It makes them that much more difficult to stop shooting at you.

Not only that, but a damaged Ven Dread on an objective can still claim it if you have taken a GKGM and it's also not a KP until you get rid of it...much harder to do than with a regular Dread. For a 60pt increase in points you get 3x the survivability.

Lukus83 wrote:Not only that, but a damaged Ven Dread on an objective can still claim it if you have taken a GKGM and it's also not a KP until you get rid of it...much harder to do than with a regular Dread. For a 60pt increase in points you get 3x the survivability.

Three times the survivability? Any numbers to back that up, because that seems blatantly wrong.

If, on penetrating hits, you only venerable away 'destroyed' results, you are 1/3 as likely to take a destroyed result on a Vendread.

Venerables are amazing, but at 1500pts, it's rather difficult to justify the cost. Not to say it can't be done, some people have had much success with them... but for the majority of players, as well as someone who is brand new and struggling with his army, I think it would benefit you to drop him in favor of a regular dread and using the spare points to boost the rest of your forces

I had 50 points to blow, so I put it on my dread. Just testing it out.

Why is shrouding a 5++?

A wrecked or explodes result is 1 in 3. Now if you get a re-roll you reduce the chance to 1 in 9. Of course you could rack up some damage results but until it's wrecked it's not a KP and if it's on an objective it can still score (if you take a GKGM).

Lukus83 wrote:A wrecked or explodes result is 1 in 3. Now if you get a re-roll you reduce the chance to 1 in 9. Of course you could rack up some damage results but until it's wrecked it's not a KP and if it's on an objective it can still score (if you take a GKGM).

You still suffer fully on glances and your penetrating destroyed results are likely to become weapon destroyed or immobilized. I'd say twice as survivable is a fair statement, but then again you cost 50% more points for an extremely minor amount of increased firepower. Venerables are viable in some builds, like if they are your only dreads/vehicles.

l0k1 wrote:Bedeporter you can't stuff 10 guys in psybacks because of troop capacity limits. Psybacks are something that's been debated since the codex was released. I personally prefer rhinos because I can stick 2 psycannons out and get 4 shots on the move plus I don't like putting a lot of points into troop transports that could be popped first turn. As for Crowe, nobody really likes him but he can still be good. Have him hug the back of rhino and stroll forward and use him as an independent character/ monstrous creature killer. I'd trade my Crowe for a hive tyrant or something equally destructive any day. Heck even a tarpit model. I've read battle reports where people charge him into a unit just to use his ability to re roll saves and keep a unit locked in combat and Crowe stilled lived! Purifiers cleansing flame ability can even make up for low model count.

I know you can't, but like I said, putting grey knights in their transports plays against the strengths of the codex. Other marine armies hide in their transports because they've generally got nothing better to be doing and can shoot the weapons that hurt out of fire points. With Grey Knights, every model has a weapon that can hurt, so hiding them away is counter productive. With an extra low model count, maximising your offensive output is the most important thing because you need to level the playing field with your opponent. 8, strenth 5 storm bolters, 2 psycannons and a strength 6 heavy bolter is more dangerous than 2 psycannons and one storm bolter with a cost difference of only 30 points.
Giving the unit a transport adds extra utility. firstly, it allows a combat squad to hide inside for extra movement and secondly provides your opponent with target priority issues.

i agree that tarpitting/character deterrent is the most useful way for crowe to be used, but the character himself does not provide synergy with the list. He requires baby sitting and therefore is a distraction for one of your units. This is all my personal opinion of course.

Chaos, with regards to venerable dreads, they are incredibly survivable. Normal ven dreads are survivable, but GK vens provide a platform that is very hard to destroy and almost impossible to stop shooting without psychic defenses. This forces you opponent to shoot more of his firepower at that dread which in turn increases the time that other vehicles will survive. So ven dreads do more for the army than just shoot more accurately, which is why people choose ven dreads.

Jamora wrote:
Why is shrouding a 5++?

I thought that the 6+ Cover + Stealth would make a 5+

BUT

It would seem that I am wrong after a careful re-read of the spell.

Its unfortunate that this thread became a Venerable Vs Non Venerable dread debate. I already know that Ven dreads are more effective then non Vens.

As for the Henchstar unit ( 5x DCA + 5x Cru ), I wrote it into my main list but switched it out for 2 reasons.
1, I have no models for it and don't feel like making them.
2, I understand making them more survivable, but I would be using them for what they are. Cheap Assassins. I would point them at the unit I want dead, and have them killed.

Svendrex, I studied your article on Henchmen in 5th for a good 5 hours or so (flight to and from work camp), and really enjoyed it. I use it as a basis for all my lists. Both my 10 x DCA and Jokaero units were derived from it. So any advice you have will be taken to heart. I just love thinking outside the norm.

Bedeporter, I'm enjoying reading your advice. It's making me re-think my lists a bit. And I was considering adding crowe to my list anyways. The brotherhood champ was a bust. He was absolutely terrible. Took him 3 rounds to kill a single DE biker. I'm going to do some point break downs and some list building to see how many Purifiers or Strike Squads I can get in my list while still fitting at least 2 dreads, 2 stormravens and as many vehicles as possible.