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This happened in a 'Ard Boyz' test game last night. A ten man Assault Terminator Squad w/ Libby, assaults a Dreadknight. Only three Terminators (two TH/SS and one LC) make it into the fight. The Dreadknight kills one, and the others fail to wound, they break. The Terminators flee, and the Dreadknight follows to attempt to walk them off the board. On the Terminators next turn, the Libby casts Gate of Infinity. The plan, to gate to the edge of the table, and force a mishap. 1-2 destroyed (they would have walked off anyway), 3-4 I would place them (next to one of my units so they would remain broken), or 5-6 and be placed in reserves, deep strike next turn, (out in the open, and rally in their next turn). Sounds crazy, but plausible.

End result, the Libby was placed on the edge, but scattered back onto the field with a Stormraven walking them off.

Part two, the second ten man Terminator squad, with Sicarius, had been reduced to six Terminators and Sicarius. They charged a Grand master w/ Psychtroke. Rolled a 6, and four out of the six Terminators failed their (I) and killed four of their own, they also broke.

So, can a broken Libby attempt to gate and force a mishap to enter reserves to rally? It would take four turns (Break, Cast, Roll Reserve, and Rally).

i would have to say no beings they break/run towards the board edge

Nothing prevents psykers from using their abilities while falling back.

its a rough one, they must fall back, that particular ability is done at the beginning of movement? so can he not fall back and use the power

Why not? He simply would use the power and then fall back or vice versa. It's the same as an eldar farseer casting fortune while falling back.

no its not the same, its done at beginning of his movement. when does the break test happen?

I think it's an odd one because the fall back must be made "...instead of moving normally..." and there is no clear definition of normal movement.

That being said, I would think that teleporting (i.e. GoI, VoD, using a Monolith portal) would fall into the 'moving normally' catagory and that the fall back move would be made instead.

That plus the fact that most units fall back 2D6. How can you gate or teleport 2D6" towards the table edge?

I also don't see how a unit that is falling back could mishap and be placed back in reserve.
Each move it makes must be made directly towards its own table edge. How would you come on from your table edge if you must move towards it?

Teleporting is not made instead of moving, unlike shunt for example. You simply can't move after deep striking.

you may want to reread GoI again than

He tried to teleport to the edge, forcing a mishap. So the question is, can a Libby use a MOVEMENT based power, or must he fall back? I think the "Must Fall Back" takes precedence.

Jidmah wrote:Teleporting is not made instead of moving, unlike shunt for example. You simply can't move after deep striking.

Veil of Darkness, page 15 codex Necrons, "A Necron Lord can use a Veil of Darkness at the start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally."

Gate of Infinity, page 57 codex Space Marines, "This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."

Ok, done. "The power is used at the beginning of the librarian's movement phase." The word "instead" does not appear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ray Age wrote:He tried to teleport to the edge, forcing a mishap. So the question is, can a Libby use a MOVEMENT based power, or must he fall back? I think the "Must Fall Back" takes precedence.

IMO teleporting to the edge you're falling back to is perfectly within the intention of the rules. On a hit, the unit would automatically be removed, because it is touching the edge. Note that there are no "movement based power" rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
time wizard: Doesn't the necron teleport exclude falling back units anyways?

so he can a)teleport b)move , however if he must fallback that happens instead.

Key thing here is that there are two rules involved. One the mishap for models off the table, but the second is that if a falling back unit contacts the table edge (ie same requirement for mishap), "the entire unit is removed from the game and counts as destroyed" Personally, I'm going to go with option 2.

Since the power is used at the beginning of the movement phase, and you are not disallowed from using Psychic powers when falling back, you can use GoI to deep strike onto the table.

You could use GoI to DS anywhere on the table, and if you are far enough away from enemies, and have ATSKNF you would rally on your next turn.

But wouldn't you have to GoI to your nearest board edge?

goi is not a psa, so they really cant be compared. the unit must fall back, goi replaces normal movement with deepstriking, however the unit cant move as normal and must fall back

Ray Age wrote:But wouldn't you have to GoI to your nearest board edge?

IMO, yes. Changing your mode of 'movement' does not alter the requirement that the movement be towards your own board edge.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:the unit must fall back, goi replaces normal movement with deepstriking, however the unit cant move as normal and must fall back

None of this is a rule.

GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase. For that matter falling back is no different that the rage USR.

And if you used GOI instead of Rage, my answer would be the same. The mode of movement does not change the required direction of that movement.

Jidmah wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:the unit must fall back, goi replaces normal movement with deepstriking, however the unit cant move as normal and must fall back

None of this is a rule.

GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase. For that matter falling back is no different that the rage USR.

pretty sure that the unit must fall back ^^

GoI happens at the beginning of the librarians movement. not the beginning of the movement phase eh?

you can't move the libby than use GoI

so some of them are rules

Jidmah wrote:GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase.

Jidmah is absolutely correct.

GoI is used at the beginning of the movement phase.

you Gate where you want.

you then "Must" fall back.

you find that you "Can not" move further that movement phase because you count as deep striking.

Can not trumps must.

They then regroup because of P.46 "a unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move." as long as they are within the restrictions (Within coherency, half str or better, no enemies within 6") or they are below half and have ATSKNF

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:GoI is used at the beginning of your movement phase, which has absolutely nothing to with what you are forced to do during your movement phase.

Jidmah is absolutely correct.

GoI is used at the beginning of the movement phase.

you Gate where you want.

you then "Must" fall back.

you find that you "Can not" move further that movement phase because you count as deep striking.

Can not trumps must.

They then regroup because of P.46 "a unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move." as long as they are within the restrictions (Within coherency, half str or better, no enemies within 6") or they are below half and have ATSKNF

But how can a may trump a must?

You must fall back WHEN you move. BEFORE you move you use Gate.

You can place anywhere on the board, and attempt to rally

nosferatu1001 wrote:You must fall back WHEN you move. BEFORE you move you use Gate.

You can place anywhere on the board, and attempt to rally

So if I don't move I don't fall back?

I'm at work ... hardly working but my rule book is at the house. walk me through this as it sounds wrong in my head.

Jidmah wrote:

Ray Age wrote:He tried to teleport to the edge, forcing a mishap. So the question is, can a Libby use a MOVEMENT based power, or must he fall back? I think the "Must Fall Back" takes precedence.

IMO teleporting to the edge you're falling back to is perfectly within the intention of the rules. On a hit, the unit would automatically be removed, because it is touching the edge. Note that there are no "movement based power" rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
time wizard: Doesn't the necron teleport exclude falling back units anyways?

Sorry so long to respond, was away from the computer. There is nothing in the VoD rule that specifically excludes using it when falling back.
The exclusion is in the Fall Back! section of the main rule.

A unit that is falling back, in subsequent Movement phases will make a fall back move instead of moving normally.
What is a "fall back move"?
It is moving 2D6" directly towards your table edge by the shortest route ignoring difficult terrain but taking dangerous terrain tests as normal.

So that's the only move you are allowed to make (unless you regroup).
The rules don't say you can teleport, phase away, use a psychic power to move or anything like that.
They tell you what the fall back move is.
To take any other action is not making a fall back move.

Done...I will inform my opponent that no further Shenanigans will be tolerated.

Time - except you are not doing this instead of making a fall back - you are using a power at the start of your movement phase
What prevents the fall back is the DS rules.

Just how do you get out of the "must" though? They happen at the same time, one is an option one is a must.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - except you are not doing this instead of making a fall back - you are using a power at the start of your movement phase
What prevents the fall back is the DS rules.

Is the falling back unit making it's fallback move? If no, then they are breaking the rules. Using something else to try to get them out of it does not supercede their requirement to do so, so IMO that would mean that you cannot have them do something or have something done to them that would prevent them from making a fallback move.