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don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - except you are not doing this instead of making a fall back - you are using a power at the start of your movement phase
What prevents the fall back is the DS rules.

Is the falling back unit making it's fallback move? If no, then they are breaking the rules. Using something else to try to get them out of it does not supercede their requirement to do so, so IMO that would mean that you cannot have them do something or have something done to them that would prevent them from making a fallback move.

Not exactly. You must fall back when it is your time to fall back, not sooner.

Step 1: Use GoI at the beginning of the movement phase, DS in and scatter to wherever you land.

Step 2: You now check morale to see if you regroup, as this happens before you move.

Step 3:
Pass morale: Stuck not moving because of DS rules then proceed as normal for the rest of your turn.
or
Fail morale: Stuck not moving because you cant via DS rules, even though you *Must* fall back.

Cant trumps Must.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Just how do you get out of the "must" though? They happen at the same time, one is an option one is a must.

They do not happen at the same time, GoI happens at the beginning of your movement phase, Fall back happens before the unit moves.

While GW have occasionally ruled that you cant circumvent a "must", e.g. Chaos dreads not being allowed to use smoke launchers, these are always exceptions.

there are no rules behind your position Don, just a feeling - ruleswise this is perfectly allowable. You *cannot* move any further when DS, so cannot move the full fall back move distance. You can attempt to argue this is Trapped!, but it doesnt meet the trigger conditions for trapped, just the end result

We've argued this before on the Monolith teleport, IIRC. Same result, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

but what is your opinion on the earlier point, regarding if a model hits the table edge triggering the fall back destroyed result in lieu of mishap?

I agreed on that point - if you hit the edge you are a falling back unit that has hit the edge, and are destroyed. You ALSO mishap, but its fairly irrelevant at that point

DeathReaper wrote:They do not happen at the same time, GoI happens at the beginning of your movement phase, Fall back happens before the unit moves.

Actually, GoI happens when the Librarian moves.
It may or may not be the first unit to move, but before the librarian moves is when it can attempt GoI.

Fall Back moves also do not happen at the beginning of the Movement phase, they do though happen when the unit that is falling back makes its move.

This is important for 2 reasons.

Firtst is that you might be able to tank shock an enemy unit that is keeping your unit from regrouping out of range allowing the falling back unit to attempt to regroup.

The second is that you might be able to move your own units out of the way so that the falling back unit has room and won't become trapped.

In either event, I still believe that the fall back move is clearly defined in the rulebook.
A unit that is falling back in each subsequent Movemement phase makes further fall back moves.
Even units that can attempt to regroup are told if they fail to regroup they must immediately continue to fall back.

They do so until they either regroup or contact a table edge at which point they are removed from play.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a unit that is falling back may use any special rule.
There is nothing in the rule for GoI or VoD that says the unit can make this move even if it is falling back.

And if you decided that you could use it, how far would the librarian move?
The full 24"?
And where? The unit must move "...directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."
So if you have a librarian are you going to force it to use Gate of Infinity (if so equipped) to go the full distance towards the table edge?
And what if the table edge is 22" away?
I could argue that since you have to move directly towards your table edge by the shortest route, that the shortest route is to move a full 24" using GoI which lands the Librarian off the table and it is immediately destroyed.

By allowing these options to be used, you are not making a fall back move that the rules require, and creating more difficulties and confusion than necessary.

A unit falling back that doesn't or can't regroup, in subsequent movement phases will continue to make a fall back move, which is 2D6" (or 3D6") directly towards its own table edge by the shortest possible route.

It really doesn't get much more simple than this folks.

DS placement is not a move - otherwise you have a whole host of other issues.

Using GoI is not a move, as nos has stated.

As such you can use GoI to place yourself anywhere within range regardless of the fall back rules.

At this point I will just agrree to disagree, good points on both sides. However neither side is budging and there is no 100% concrete either way imo.

Actually it is 100% concrete to one way. There is not a single rule preventing GoI from being used.

time wizard: It is used at the beginning of his movement phase, not his movement. His movement phase starts at the same time as every other models of the librarian's army.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a unit that is falling back may use any special rule.

This is a misconception. Librarians are allowed to use psychic power per default. Unlike turbo boost or gone to ground, "Fall back!" does not take this ability away, so any psychic ability would still be usable.

Jidmah wrote:Actually it is 100% concrete to one way. There is not a single rule preventing GoI from being used.

time wizard: It is used at the beginning of his movement phase, not his movement. His movement phase starts at the same time as every other models of the librarian's army.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says a unit that is falling back may use any special rule.

This is a misconception. Librarians are allowed to use psychic power per default. Unlike turbo boost or gone to ground, "Fall back!" does not take this ability away, so any psychic ability would still be usable.

Note the gent on the other side of the fence said his grass was greener.

Tomato Tomatoe

concrete brick

Sitting here reading the rules myself, nothing is 100% about this imo.

Please note it actually doesnt state when the unit Must fall back so that is open to discussion. I feel it needs to be done in the beginning. In which case you would have Must fall back, and May use GoI.

As I already stated though, each their own and like I said good points made on each but 100% concrete no ... nothing in this game is where I can argue for a 5+ cover save as per the BGB

You "feel" it must be at the beginning? Thats 4th ed. 5th ed EXPLICITLY changed it so you fall back when you try to move the unit.

You have permission to use psychic powers (RAW)
You have permission to use it at the start of the movement phase (RAW)

You may use GOI (RAW)

Thats it. It is clear.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thats it. It is clear.

I disagree that it is clear.

If DS placement is not a move, and GoI is DS placement, do you also believe it can be used by the Librarian to leave close combat?

@Jidmah, The rule says it is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase." This is a direct quote from the Space Marine Codex.
I know the Librarian doesn't have its own Movement phase. But understand that it is written this way to allow the player to use this power anytime during the Movment phase.
If it instead said it is used "...at the beginning of the Movement phase." or "...at the beginning of the player's movement phase." then it would have to be the first move the player made in his turn.

Same for fall back. The move is made by the unit falling back in each subsequent movement phase. Doesn't have to be the first unit moved. There is no set order when the unit must make its fall back move.

But the only move it can make is a fall back move. And I son't see how you are justifying ignoring the part of the fall back move that says it must be made, "...directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."

If you GoI in any direction other than going straight towards your table edge, you have broken this rule.

If you DS yia GoI and scatter any direction other than directly towards your own table edge you have broken this rule.

@nosferatu - You have been one of the biggest proponents of the fact that the Necron WBB rule cannot be used if the Necron Unit is caught in a sweeping advance. This is correct because as you affirm, the WBB rule does not give specific permission to override sweeping advance from the main rulebook.

By the same token, a unit that is falling back must continue to make fall back moves until they regroup, are assaulted or leave the table. There is nothing in the GoI rule or the VoD rule that says they power may be used even if the unit is falling back. In fact, VoD even says it can be used even if the models are in base contact with an enemy unit, wording that is missing from the GoI rule.

You have always championed the fact that unless the rules give you permission to do something, you can't say it is allowed simply because it is not prohibited.

@Jidmah, The rule says it is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase." This is a direct quote from the Space Marine Codex.
I know the Librarian doesn't have its own Movement phase. But understand that it is written this way to allow the player to use this power anytime during the Movment phase.
If it instead said it is used "...at the beginning of the Movement phase." or "...at the beginning of the player's movement phase." then it would have to be the first move the player made in his turn.

No, this would be wrong. All those terms are interchangeable and mean "before anything moves normally". Models do not have their own movement phase.

Jidmah wrote: Models do not have their own movement phase.

Well, I did say that the Librarian does not have its own Movement phase, no model does for that matter.

But some things must be done first, like rolling for reserves.

And bringing units on from reserves, that must be done before moving any other units.

My point was that after that, the player may move any unit in any order he wishes, giving some tactical latitude in moving falling back units.
Specifically, it could allow you to tank shock and enemy unit away from your falling back unit giving them a chance to regroup.

There is no RaW to clear it so fluff wise I'd say "In the midst of all the panic the librarian simply does not have the mental clarity to call upon his powers". Alternatively for the VoD " the lord would use his veil but simply a strategic fall back program overwrites the programing to veil".

On a side not I see no reason why a lord could not VoD a falling back necron squad within 6 nor do I see no reason why something like the GK libby ability "the summoning" wouldn't work. After all these units are not moving rather being moved by something else.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You "feel" it must be at the beginning? Thats 4th ed. 5th ed EXPLICITLY changed it so you fall back when you try to move the unit.

You have permission to use psychic powers (RAW)
You have permission to use it at the start of the movement phase (RAW)

You may use GOI (RAW)

Thats it. It is clear.

have permission to use Psychic Powers, RAW of course
RAW it's used at the start of the movement phase
May use GOI

Must fall back

DeepStriking Rules pieces and Tid Bits
"In the Movement Phase these units May not Move Any Farther" "and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase"

Nothing states GoI replaces normal movement, however if you can't move normal can you use GoI?
As per the DS Rules DS'ing is movement and they are not falling back as they must

Cannot overrides must

nosferatu1001 wrote:Cannot overrides must

And specific overrides general.

So from a previous post of mine to you;

time wizard wrote:@nosferatu - You have been one of the biggest proponents of the fact that the Necron WBB rule cannot be used if the Necron Unit is caught in a sweeping advance. This is correct because as you affirm, the WBB rule does not give specific permission to override sweeping advance from the main rulebook.

By the same token, a unit that is falling back must continue to make fall back moves until they regroup, are assaulted or leave the table. There is nothing in the GoI rule or the VoD rule that says they power may be used even if the unit is falling back. In fact, VoD even says it can be used even if the models are in base contact with an enemy unit, wording that is missing from the GoI rule.

You have always championed the fact that unless the rules give you permission to do something, you can't say it is allowed simply because it is not prohibited.

So the question is how can you say you are allowed to use a power in a specific way when there is no specific permission to do so?

You have general permission to use the power
You have NOTHING which states you cannot use the power. NOthing whatsoever.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have permission to use psychic powers (RAW)
You have permission to use it at the start of the movement phase (RAW)
You may use GOI (RAW)

Thats it. It is clear.

have permission to use Psychic Powers, RAW of course
RAW it's used at the start of the movement phase
May use GOI

Must fall back

DeepStriking Rules pieces and Tid Bits
"In the Movement Phase these units May not Move Any Farther" "and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase"
Nothing states GoI replaces normal movement, however if you can't move normal can you use GoI?
As per the DS Rules DS'ing is movement and they are not falling back as they must

Nos has it correct, in this case, may not overrides must. and if you can't make a normal move, you still can use GoI, since GoI does not replace movement.

time wizard wrote:If you GoI in any direction other than going straight towards your table edge, you have broken this rule.

If you DS via GoI and scatter any direction other than directly towards your own table edge you have broken this rule.

100% not true.

GoI is not a move, and does not follow the movement restrictions for fall back, and as such may place yourself, and subsequently scatter in any direction.

time wizard wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thats it. It is clear.

I disagree that it is clear.

If DS placement is not a move, and GoI is DS placement, do you also believe it can be used by the Librarian to leave close combat?

Yes, since:

#1 you are allowed to use Psychic powers whilst locked in CC, unless it is a PSA.

#2 GoI is not a PSA so you can use it whilst locked in CC, GoI is not used instead of moving normally, but is only used at the beginning of the librarians movement phase.

Nebulas1 wrote:There is no RaW to clear it...

There is, as we have pointed out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have general permission to use the power
You have NOTHING which states you cannot use the power. NOthing whatsoever.

But the fall back move is specified as, units normally move 2D6", the moves are not slowed by difficult terrain and dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal

It also says, "Each model in the unit falls back directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route."

So if you want to use GoI or VoD or any other psychic rule to move the unit, go ahead, but you still must move the unit "...directly towards their own table edge...".

The only exception is to move around obstructions.

Nothing states you can move in any other direction.

What you may be missing time, is that GoI is not a move.

It does not replace normal movement in any way.

And as such does not follow the restrictions placed on movement because of falling back.

DS is NOT a movement. It cannot be - so the initial placement is not movement, and you are allowed to place it anywhere.

Prove the placement is movement. You do realise the utter mess that creates, right? We've done this to death - DS placement is not movement

DeathReaper wrote: GoI is not a move, and does not follow the movement restrictions for fall back, and as such may place yourself, and subsequently scatter in any direction.

It is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."

The librarian and his unit are removed from the tabletop and placed back on it within 24".

If this isn't movement, I don't know what is.

One final thing, using Gate of Infinity you place the Librarian and his unit on the table using deep strike rules.

But, units that are falling back make "...further fall back moves..." in subsequent Movement phases.

Nothing in that section gives you permission to use deep strike rules to complete a fall back move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Prove the placement is movement. You do realise the utter mess that creates, right? We've done this to death - DS placement is not movement

Okay, it's not movement.

Prove to me that you can ignore making a fall back move.

Using GoI or deep striking instead of making a fall back move, as required by rule, is what is creating the utter mess.

They are not doing this "instead of" making the FB move

it just so happens that they cannot move after DS; cannot overrides must

nosferatu1001 wrote: They are not doing this "instead of" making the FB move

it just so happens that they cannot move after DS;

But, again, nothing in either the DS or fall back rule gives permission for a DS move to be made instead of a fall back move.
The rules for units falling back state clearly what the fall back move is.
It also states that the unit "...will make further fall back moves...".

nosferatu1001 wrote: cannot overrides must

And rock beats paper.

So the old melodrama dialogue;

"You must pay the rent."
"I can't pay the rent."

So you don't have to pay the rent because you can't?
Or you must pay the rent and if you don't you suffer the consequences?

They use a power - this power does not make them move "instead of" making the fall back move, but makes the fall back move impossible.

Subtle difference - and indeed, cannot overrides must. You cannot make a fallback move, but (as i pointed out earlier) do NOT suffer trapped as you do not fulfill the triggers for it.

time wizard wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote: cannot overrides must

And rock beats paper.

So the old melodrama dialogue;

"You must pay the rent."
"I can't pay the rent."

So you don't have to pay the rent because you can't?
Or you must pay the rent and if you don't you suffer the consequences?

If you cant pay the rent, but you must pay the rent, does any money exchange hands?

GoI is not used Instead of making a normal move.

You are allowed to use GoI when locked in CC.

You are allowed to use GoI while falling back.

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI when locked in CC.

Please quote the rule that allows this.

The Necron VoD states right in the rule that the veil may be used even if in base contact with enemy models.
GoI does not state that it can be used when locked in CC.

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI while falling back.

Again, please quote the specific rule that says you are allowed to do so.

The rules for the power generate the permission

please, find something that states you CANNOT use the power; we have shown you CAN, you must show the restriction, which you have so far failed to do.