Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI when locked in CC.

Please quote the rule that allows this.

The Necron VoD states right in the rule that the veil may be used even if in base contact with enemy models.
GoI does not state that it can be used when locked in CC.

Yes it does state that it can be used when locked in CC, by the general allowance to cast a psychic power.

Page 50. BRB "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

This allows you to use your psychic power once per player turn. If there are no further restrictions you can use the power at any point, but only once per player turn.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You are allowed to use GoI while falling back.

Again, please quote the specific rule that says you are allowed to do so.

Again P.50 allows this and I will need to see something that restricts this to override the general allowance to use a psychic power once per player turn.

Well, to quote Jidmah from a different thread;

Jidmah wrote: In a permissive rule set you are not allowed to do anything unless explicitly told to do so.

But you are now telling me to find a rule that explicitly denies allowing you to do something.

As I said, VoD says it can be used to move out of base contact with enemy units.

GoI says no such thing.

So would I have to find the rule that says you may not use GoI to move out of close combat?

Fall Back! says in subsequent turns you will continue to make fall back moves.
It even describes what those are.

But you are demanding that I find a part that says "You may not use GoI of VoD or other similar rules."?

As Jidmah said, you need permission to do something.
Neither GoI nor VoD gives permission for the power to be used when falling back.
No permission to do anything but continue to fall back.
The exceptions are clearly noted as well, nothing that says a psychic power or a piece of wargear can be used instead.

So did I find a rule that specificaly says you may not use GoI when falling back? No, I did not.

But did you find a rule that specifically says you may? I think not.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
Again P.50 allows this and I will need to see something that restricts this to override the general allowance to use a psychic power once per player turn.

Page 50 gives the general rules for using psychic powers. It says that the powers are discussed in the rules and that is where the complete rules for the power can be found.

Back to the permissive ruleset, VoD says it can be used to move out of base contact, GoI does not.

Are you seriously suggesting that because a rule in the Necron codex says a rule can be used that it is allowed to in the Space Marine Codex?

That because a Necron Lord can use a power to leave CC that a Librarian can as well?

Then by the same token, ATSKNF allows marines to not be swept in a sweeping advance.
So Necron WBB will allow the same thing.

Except WBB doesn't allow it. It does not specifically say that they are not destroyed by a sweeping advance like the marines ATSKNF rule.

I don't think there's anything more I can say.

I can't prove you can't do something by finding a specific rule that prohibits it, and you don't have a rule that specifically sayd you can do something which you feel means you can do it anyway.

I'm just surprised how folks who hang their hats on "find the rule that says you can" can change that to "find the rule that says you can't" whenever they choose.

Time - that isnt how it works.

If yu have permission saying you CAN do something, you must find a restriction or you CAN do the thing. THats how the rules work.

You're essentially asking for rules showing permission to deploy inside a forest, when all we have are rules that allow us to deploy anywhere on the table. We have permission to use GoI, you have to find something that restricts this, or you have no argument.

time wizard wrote:But did you find a rule that specifically says you may? I think not.

Page 50 states that I can use my psychic power.

The SM rules say I can use it at the beginning of the librarians movement phase.

No other restrictions are in place, so I can use the psychic power at the beginning of the librarians movement phase, without restriction.

The above rules are where it says I may.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Again P.50 allows this and I will need to see something that restricts this to override the general allowance to use a psychic power once per player turn.

Page 50 gives the general rules for using psychic powers. It says that the powers are discussed in the rules and that is where the complete rules for the power can be found.

Back to the permissive ruleset, VoD says it can be used to move out of base contact, GoI does not.

Logical Fallicy, It does not say I can use it to move into difficult terrain either...

We have to look at the brb and the codex otherwise we have no way of knowing how to cast psychic powers.

so P.50 allows us to use psychic powers, the SM rules tell us we can use this power at the beginning of the movement phase. no other restrictions are put on the power. So If it is the beginning of the librarians movement phase, and he passes his Leadership test then he can use GoI, as there are no other restrictions on using GoI in the text.

time wizard wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that because a rule in the Necron codex says a rule can be used that it is allowed to in the Space Marine Codex?

That because a Necron Lord can use a power to leave CC that a Librarian can as well?

Then by the same token, ATSKNF allows marines to not be swept in a sweeping advance.
So Necron WBB will allow the same thing.

Except WBB doesn't allow it. It does not specifically say that they are not destroyed by a sweeping advance like the marines ATSKNF rule.

I can't prove you can't do something by finding a specific rule that prohibits it, and you don't have a rule that specifically sayd you can do something which you feel means you can do it anyway.

Whatever VoD is (I am assuming it is a necron power by the context) I made no mention of it, and I am not really sure what it is, so I was not basing anything on it. Of course the Necron codex has no bearing on the SM codex. It appears as if the line allowing you to use it to move out of base contact is redundant in 5th Ed. (noting that Necrons were not written for 5th ed, and they may have needed to qualify it in a previous edition.)

time wizard wrote:I'm just surprised how folks who hang their hats on "find the rule that says you can" can change that to "find the rule that says you can't" whenever they choose.

Yes, it is a permissive ruleset. In this instance we have found the rule that says we can.
However, if one rule says I can do something, then, according to the permissive ruleset, you need to "find the rule that says you can't" but only in that instance where you have been given explicit permission to perform said action. Which is the case for psychic powers.

Let's get this straight,

I may Use GoI, however my unit is broken and falling back.
GoI uses DS which is a form of movement.
Beings I am broken and if I use GoI I must go towards my closest board edge?

Except Deep Strike is not a form of movement.

So you can use GoI to place yourself anywhere on the board, then before you move attempt to rally.

DeathReaper wrote:Except Deep Strike is not a form of movement.

So you can use GoI to place yourself anywhere on the board, then before you move attempt to rally.

However it is considered movement, so

" in the movement phase when they arrive these units may not move any further,"
"In that turns shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Edited to cite
BGB Pg 95

yes, even though Deep Striking is not movement, you are counted as if you have moved, this is to prevent you from moving and/or firing heavy weapons.

Similar to a vehicle that has Deep Struck, it has not moved (Since it was not on the table prior to the Deep Strike attempt) but counts as if moving cruising speed.

Once again though It's a deep strike move, the units falling back and must go towards the closest table edge

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Once again though It's a deep strike move, the units falling back and must go towards the closest table edge

No, Deep strike is not a move.

You can be placed anywhere on the table with GoI, since it is not a move and is not restricted by the fall back rules.

Once you arrive at the location you just deep struck to, you attempt to rally, then if that is not successful you stay in place since you can not move because of the DS rules.

On your next turn you attempt to rally, then if that is not successful you fall back your normal fall back distance. (Normally 2D6)

so it counts as moving, physically moves, smells and tastes like moving but isn't moving ...

on pg 95 there is a neat line though "too disrupted by their deep strike move" heh guess that makes it RaW a move??

you play it your way I'll play it mine
We each see it our way and not the other and I dont think any rule will make us change our views.

Remember that Fluff =/= rules.

Also remember that the deep strike rules only cover having them enter play and be deployed via deep strike.

GoI breaks that a bit since you are not in reserve, but you are using the DS rules.

DS does not say that it is a move, so it is not.

Regardless it's clearly in the B&W as Deep Strike Move.

GoI uses Deep Strike so whether they are from reserve or not, this doesn't matter.

I guess the ultimate question is, if a model counts as moving did it in fact move?

I have to say yes and yes to that, clearly if it counts as moving than by definition the model has "moved" or counts as having been "moved"

therefore the unit must make it's fallback move as normal.

For example DT tests may have to be made by DS'ing Units/models etc

DT Tests are made when a model entered, left or moved through one or more areas of DT during it's move See pg 14 BgB for exact text

beings you can only take DT tests during it's move ... guess that's movement ...

Except once the unit uses GoI it can not move because the DS rules restrict them from doing so.

You are allowed to use GoI, since it is used at the beginning of the librarians movement phase, Also GoI is not done "Instead of moving normally" It is a Psychic power that takes effect before the unit makes their fall back move.

So a unit can use GoI to be placed anywhere within 24 inches of the librarians current location, then they attempt to regroup, and if they fail (ATSKNF prevents the Space Marines from failing this test) they are stuck not moving because they "Are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules." P.57 SM codex

Alright let's try this once more.
Because there is no rule to disallow the Libby from casting GoI which like it or not is a "movement" power that replaces the unit's "normal" movement (I'm aware it doesn't say this) however it's common sense that a unit cannot move twice.

Why do they move than try and regroup?
Why don't they try to regroup first?

Your questions dont make sense.

They use GoI first, because thats when GoI says you use it.

thats it. Nothing else.

I couldn't find anything under fall back that tells you when you try and regroup, I just wanted to see if I was missing something.

So even though DS'ing is movement, it's not considered normal movement?

You try to regroup when you try to move the unit - and you have to do this at some point in the movement phase. However, as I stated earlier, in an EXPLICIT change to 4th ed they removed the requirement to try to regroup at the start of the movement phase.

I just wanted to make sure of everything, I must have misread when you stated that earlier. I thought it was to something else at the time.

Alright makes sense to me and we got some good points across without getting too heated.

GoI/DS =/= normal movement
GoI/DS'ing ='s Movement
The unit is not bound to take a fall back move/ break test at any certain point in the movement phase

Did i miss any key points?

IF someone tried pulling those shenanigans I would scoop. It's cheesy and it circumvents RAI in every way.

It seems that since Deep Striking is not moving, has to be called movement or the model moves, then GoI can be used at the start of the movement phase that belongs to the libbys player. After resolving the DS you then check to see if you can rally (ATSKNF applies) if not or if you fail then you would normally attempt to fall back to your own board edge as per the Fall Back rules, however you cannot since you have Deep Striked via GoI.
Also since GoI is not movement under its own rules then you can choose anywhere GoI allows you to even if it is further away from your board edge.

Wow, sorry I started this post. I do thank everyone for their Opinions and Interpretations. Next time I'll just kill the Damned Libby.

Ray Age wrote:Wow, sorry I started this post. I do thank everyone for their Opinions and Interpretations. Next time I'll just kill the Damned Libby.

Do not be sorry, it is one of the many situations that people can become confused about.

It is good to ask for clarification on things such as this so you and others can play by the correct rules.

So if you ever play someone outside your group you can play the way the book says to and will not be confused on the legality of things.

DeathReaper wrote:

Ray Age wrote:Wow, sorry I started this post. I do thank everyone for their Opinions and Interpretations. Next time I'll just kill the Damned Libby.

Do not be sorry, it is one of the many situations that people can become confused about.

It is good to ask for clarification on things such as this so you and others can play by the correct rules.

So if you ever play someone outside your group you can play the way the book says to and will not be confused on the legality of things.

Agreed, this was a good in depth and tbh quite fun ruling. Alot of good points were made from all sides, and best of all noone suffered a nerd rage.

Thanks Nos, Time, Jidmah, Reaper, OP and everyone else for their contributions

JD

Hey way back in the original post, the intent was to move the libby right to the board edge to force a mishap right? On pg 45 of the BGB is says that if a unit leaves the table it counts as destroyed. (2nd Paragraph under Fall Back) So once the unit is removed from the table it would be destroyed and the point is moo..

There is a flaw here in that it says if a model touches the table edge in the 4th paragraph down, so technically it could be possible to argue that you never touched the table edge.

Id say you can't by raw place you model over the board edge for the attempt but next to it and hope you scatter for the mishap. However this brings up a separate problem. A unit suffering fall back rules which touch the edge of the board are imeaditly removed from play. I believe this would prevent the mishap from occuring. However nothing prevents you from trying to ds on top of a model or other impassible terrian to generate the mishap.

When DS'ing though is it legal placement to place a model off the table?

unless you try to hit board edge and scatter off

No I don't believe you can have the initial placement off of the table, no more than you can choose to move off of a table. (Fleeing is an exception)

DS lets you place the model anywhere ON the table. GoI is anywhere on the table within 24", so in neither case can you place it off the table

What I don't understand is why, in the original post, he would gate somewhere to force a mishap when he could just gate somewhere safe and regroup?