Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Was reading over this and thought I would toss out my findings as well.

So we all agree on a few things....

1) GOI is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase.
2) The Librarian and his unit are falling back.
3) The Librarian and his unit have an enemy unit within 6" forcing them to fail regroup test.
4) GOI is a movement...psychic or otherwise it allows the unit to move.

So..if we agree on this, what about rulebook pg. 46, under the heading Regrouping...

A unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move.

So, the unit is attempting to move, doesn't matter if it is via a psychic ability, normally, act of god, act of the emperor, or jumping out of the way of a grot holding a vortex grenade...the unit is going to move. This is when it test to regroup. And it fails...due to unit within 6". So...

Continued from the same heading at the bottom...

If the unit fails its leadership test, (or cannot regroup because of the restrictions given above), then it must immediately continue to fall back.

Seem cut and dry to me. The unit is trying to not be in the same place it was before, which is a move, so before it can attempt it, the rules for regrouping take effect, you then must immediately continue the fall back, disallowing you to attempt the GoI.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:The unit is trying to not be in the same place it was before, which is a move.

The above is incorrect, since the BRB defines move. The unit physically is moved, but that is not the same as the rules telling us what they define a move to be. (AKA normal movement)

#3 is only true when the unit is checking to see if it can regroup, which happens after the beginning of the movement phase(when GoI is cast), but before the unit moves.(Which is after GoI is cast) So if there are any enemies within 6" of the new location after DSing with GoI then #3 is true, however we do not know the status of the field so #3 is most likely not true.

Except the BRB defines what is a move so we do not agree on #4.

GoI is not a move, It is a Psychic Power that does not replace the units normal movement.

It allows the unit to be placed somewhere else within 24" of the librarians current location using the Deep Strike Rules.

You use GoI at the beginning of the movement phase.

You attempt to rally before when you attempt to move the unit that is falling back.

Except the BRB defines what is a move so we do not agree on #4.

okay what page is this on...I see movement phase, move thru cover, and a bunch of other, but no specifics on what classifies a "move". I am referring to the word move in a dictionary.

GoI is not a move, It is a Psychic Power that does not replace the units normal movement. It allows the unit to be placed somewhere else within 24" of the librarians current location using the Deep Strike Rules.

I think they italics falls under the terms of the word "move".

I see your point, but it is stretching the phrasing too far. If I remove a model from the board, I am still moving the model.

Should it be FAQ'd sure, I like how fantasy breaks down the phases, think it would solve a lot of problems if GW added this to 40k in 6th edition.

GoI is a move, as only models making a move may take dangerous terrain tests

It is however, not normal movement

Not true. DS is not a move in and of itself, it just states you take DT tests and you may not move after making the GoI /DS move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not true. DS is not a move in and of itself, it just states you take DT tests and you may not move after making the GoI /DS move.

1) Yes, Deep Striking counts as movement. The rules specifically say that a unit which Deep Strikes cannot move any further, which by definition means they moved when Deep Striking.


2) Why has this gone on for so many pages? GW has already ruled on 3 similar situations in their FAQs: Necron Veil of Darkness, Eldar Skyleap & Grey Knight Summoning. In all cases they ruled that a falling back model cannot be moved via these abilities as it has to make a fall back move instead...and the Summoning uses the exact same wording as GOI (used at the start of the movement phase).

Why would there be any expectation that GOI should work any differently from the rest of these similar abilities when it comes to this particular question?

@yakface - So would you then agree that a unit that is falling back can only make further fall back moves in it subsequent Movement phases until or unless it regroups, is destroyed or touches the table edge?

time wizard wrote:@yakface - So would you then agree that a unit that is falling back can only make further fall back moves in it subsequent Movement phases until or unless it regroups, is destroyed or touches the table edge?

Not quite. In the movement phase a falling back unit must make a fall back move and therefore cannot utilize any other type of movement it would normally be able to use in that phase.

However, GW has ruled that special movement that takes place in other phases (such as running, Jump Pack Assault moves, etc) can still be used in those phases, but only to move the unit in the direction it is already falling back.

yakface wrote:... GW has already ruled on 3 similar situations in their FAQs: Necron Veil of Darkness, Eldar Skyleap & Grey Knight Summoning. In all cases they ruled that a falling back model cannot be moved via these abilities as it has to make a fall back move instead...and the Summoning uses the exact same wording as GOI (used at the start of the movement phase).

I did not know they made rulings for other similar powers.

Now is a question of how you would play it.

Would you let them use GoI to move directly towards their table edge thus following the fall back restrictions?

DeathReaper wrote: I did not know they made rulings for other similar powers.

Here they are if you're interested.

Q. Can the veil of darkness be used to teleport a
falling back unit? What if the Lord with the veil
is falling back himself?
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally), and may not be
used to teleport a unit who is Falling Back at the
start of the turn (as he may not join a unit that is
falling back).

Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the
turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn?
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before
it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite
strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it
passes the test or fails it.

Q: Can a Librarian use The Summoning psychic power
to transport a unit that is falling back? (p25)
A: No.

DeathReaper wrote:Now is a question of how you would play it.

Would you let them use GoI to move directly towards their table edge thus following the fall back restrictions?

No, I would not. As I have previously posted, a unit that is falling back is required to make a fall back move.
This move is explained in the fall back section of the rules.

A generic Space Marine Ligrarian's GoI is the essentially the same as the 3 powers listed above.
I don't believe you can use GoI to teleport a unit that is falling back or to teleport out of close combat either.

But it would seem that I am in the minority on this.

You pasted one FAQ twice

But actually
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally).
settles it for me. This is proves that picking up your models from the table and immediately putting them down at some other place on the map is normal movement.

time wizard wrote: Here they are if you're interested.

Q. Can the veil of darkness be used to teleport a
falling back unit? What if the Lord with the veil
is falling back himself?
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally), and may not be
used to teleport a unit who is Falling Back at the
start of the turn (as he may not join a unit that is
falling back).

That made me change my mind as the bold part pretty much says it all...no you can't do it.

Jidmah wrote:You pasted one FAQ twice

But actually
A. Veil of darkness may not be used by a Lord
who is Falling Back at the start of the turn (as he
is not free to move normally).
settles it for me. This is proves that picking up your models from the table and immediately putting them down at some other place on the map is normal movement.

Thank Jidmah, had a cut and paste glitch.
Have edited to include the swooping hawks, duplicated here.

Q. If a Swooping Hawk unit is falling back when the
turn begins, can it utilise Skyleap that turn?
A. No, it cannot. That unit must test to regroup before
it can move, and the rules for regrouping are quite
strict about what the unit can do that turn, whether it
passes the test or fails it.

This thread brings to light many inconsistencies in GW's rules set, which should come as no surprise. In the absence of those above posted rulings, I would say that Nosferatu and DeathReaper had this one correct. The only place that referenced a Deep Strike as being movement is in the emphasis Yakface pointed out. "May not move FURTHER that phase" implies that Deep Striking is in fact movement, but nowhere does it SPECIFICALLY say that. An implication is not the same as a specific clarification. These are the kinds of things that GW needs to cut out of their rules, because they are a cancer eating at the core of this game system, and they lead to this kind of pointless debate. If you mean a thing, say it clearly and specifically, and take every effort to ensure it is spelled out clearly to your players. Players are NOT development staff, and they don't "know what you mean".

As the rules are written now, I would have ruled that GoI is not movement, and is used prior to the point of the unit making its fall back move, and not used INSTEAD of that fall back move. The unit may not make its fall back move because Deep Strike does not allow them to do so. That said, GW clearly ruled the other way on three similar abilities, which is contradictory to the way the rules are actually written. In a system that saw extensive play-testing, 3rd party revision and public beta, this would not happen. Hopefully GW will correct this in the future, but I doubt it.

If you look at the rules for Deep Strike and compare them to the rules for Disembarkation from a vehicle after the vehicle has moved, they are quite similar in what they allow. A unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved and cannot move any further that phase. A unit that disembarks from a vehicle counts as having moved, and if the vehicle moved, they cannot move any further that phase. Would this imply that disembarkation is movement? If it's movement, then how does a unit disembark from a Drop Pod? It arrived via Deep Strike, and the unit inside counts as having arrived from Deep Strike (per the FAQ). They must immediately disembark the transport, but they cannot because the rules for Deep Strike prevent them from moving any further that phase.

To raise another question along these lines, what happens if a unit arrives via Deep Strike, scatters into Dangerous Terrain, rolls enough 1's to force morale and fails the test. Deep Strike specifically states that the unit can move no further that phase, so would they just stand still and fall back next turn (or rally if no enemy is within 6")?

Aldarionn wrote:If you look at the rules for Deep Strike and compare them to the rules for Disembarkation from a vehicle after the vehicle has moved, they are quite similar in what they allow. A unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved and cannot move any further that phase. A unit that disembarks from a vehicle counts as having moved, and if the vehicle moved, they cannot move any further that phase. Would this imply that disembarkation is movement? If it's movement, then how does a unit disembark from a Drop Pod? It arrived via Deep Strike, and the unit inside counts as having arrived from Deep Strike (per the FAQ). They must immediately disembark the transport, but they cannot because the rules for Deep Strike prevent them from moving any further that phase.

Yes, disembarking is a form of non-standard movement. GW's rulebook FAQ clarifies this, which is why you are not allowed to disembark your models 'through' impassable terrain or other models.

In the case of models disembarking from Drop Pods (and other Deep Striking transports), the reason they can do so is because they have specific rules allowing them to do so. The basic DS rules say that transported units that arrive via Deep Strike aren't allowed to move any FURTHER that phase except to disembark from their vehicle.

So there is no contradiction in this instance.

To raise another question along these lines, what happens if a unit arrives via Deep Strike, scatters into Dangerous Terrain, rolls enough 1's to force morale and fails the test. Deep Strike specifically states that the unit can move no further that phase, so would they just stand still and fall back next turn (or rally if no enemy is within 6")?

Correct, the unit would count as 'falling back' but would not make a fall back move that phase because they are not allowed to move any further that phase.

yakface wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:To raise another question along these lines, what happens if a unit arrives via Deep Strike, scatters into Dangerous Terrain, rolls enough 1's to force morale and fails the test. Deep Strike specifically states that the unit can move no further that phase, so would they just stand still and fall back next turn (or rally if no enemy is within 6")?

Correct, the unit would count as 'falling back' but would not make a fall back move that phase because they are not allowed to move any further that phase.

Two points to consider.
First, since the rules tell a unit to make a fall back move immediately upon failing a morale check, wouldn't this be compulsory movement that the unit would be forced to make?
I think forcing a unit to fall back is an exception to "the unit may not move any further".

Second, both DS and disembark state the unit may not move further in that Movement phase.
A morale check for losing 25% or a units strength is taken at the end of the phase, which would be after all models have moved.
I believe this also means the unit will immediately make its fall back move since it is at the end of the phase.

Falling back is a result or a penalty that a unit suffers after taking casualties.
You cannot "voluntarily" fall back, it happens as a result of failing a morale test.
Not being able to move after DS or disembarking is preventing a unit from executing a voluntary move that phase, it should not be a shield that prevents a unit from having to fall back if it suffers damage.

No - "must" is overridden by "cannot", consistently.