Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Where does the Imperium get all of it's money for production of just about everything in their arsenal? Or do all the people just work for free on the gak in the factories?

Taxes.

Why would they need money? Money is a shared illusion that makes people feel their time is valuable. The Imperium doesn't value its citizen's time.

When Soladrin says "Taxes", I think what he means is "A LOT OF TAXES! Like stupid, crazy amounts of money." Think about how much you pay in a year. Now multiply that amount by 500 billion or so. Then add in the fact that the Impirum basicly owns everything anyway. Endless amounts to the point of meaninglessness.

The imperium just prints what it needs who worries about inflation or recessions.

Mutants and malcontents for forced labour, soldiers and resources/food in the form of tithes.

Justus wrote:Where does the Imperium get all of it's money for production of just about everything in their arsenal? Or do all the people just work for free on the gak in the factories?

Afaik most pieces of equipment, ranging from the humble lasgun to a warcruiser, are either tithed from Imperial Planets or produced and supplied by the Mechanicus ( as part of their alliance with the Imperium ).
Still, those people serving the Imperium directly ( Administratum members, soldiers and so on ) probably have to be paid but in that case the Imperium can simply "print" money ( although this might lead to a gradual inflation of the imperial currency ) or tax those planets which are developed enough to be taxed.

edit: I do not think that the Imperium needs particularly huge amounts of money. Most planets seem to take care of their own economies ( and are therefore not the Imperium's buisness ).
The Mechanicus needs no money and the amount of people who directly serve the Imperium ( and therefore have to be payed by the Imperium and not the various planetary governments ) is comparatively small ( yes yes, the Guard and the Administratum are huge, but they are still small compared to the trillions of people in the Imperium ).

Money isn't something you have to go 'get', and almost all economies work on imaginary figures of money anyway. For example, America hasn't physically borrowed $14 trillion, the figure is simply there to make trade between countries work.
Money has no intrinsic value other than that which is is bestowed.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:Money has no intrinsic value other than that which is is bestowed.

Yes, and no.

Most modern money has no intrinsic value but that which we put our faith in.

However, systems which use a gold standard(and similar) ARE worth an intrinsic value, as they are backed upon a resources.

Each planet owes a tithe, a percentage of the planet's potential production. The tithes vary by planets, and are determined by complex factors.

Planets pay their tithes in different ways. A feudal planet, locked in the middle ages, might tithe 20% of all foodstuff production. This food is redistributed to other worlds, including a smoke-shrouded Forgeworld. This Forgeworld tithes 61.6 million Meltaguns annually, in addition to the 37.2 million Meltaguns produced each year and traded for extra food and fresh water (as the planet has long since lost the capability to sustain itself). Other planets might pay tithes in manpower, fuel, raw materials, cold hard credits, or any combination of the above.

All of these tithes are then combined to support the Imperium's interstellar activities, including the Navy, the Guard, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, etc.

If the Imperium needs more, it can raise tithes. Planets and governors that refuse these terms face immediate punishment, ranging from the removal of the current governor and installation of an eager replacement more amenable to imperial demands, to long term punitive sanctions (Vostroya), or direct military intervention (BL's Flesh and Iron).

It depends.

The Imperium itself doesn't get material based on money, it gets it based on tithes. It's not taxation as we know it. In our form of taxation, we give the government money, and the government spends the money to buy the material it needs.

In the Imperium, at least on a system wide scale, the individual planets pay their taxes directly in material. Instead of giving the Imperium say, 5000 thrones, and then the Imperium going to a t to buy 5000 thrones worth of wheat, the Imperium gets wheat directly from the agri world, with no money transaction involved. It's a very feudal system.

On individual planets though? Who knows? Maybe some use the same feudal system, maybe some use the taxation system we know today.

Platuan4th wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:Money has no intrinsic value other than that which is is bestowed.

Yes, and no.

Most modern money has no intrinsic value but that which we put our faith in.

However, systems which use a gold standard(and similar) ARE worth an intrinsic value, as they are backed upon a resources.

Which itself doesn't have any intrinsic value.

Now, the ancient Japanese unit of Koku (amount of rice to feed a man for a year) is worth something, but gold? It's on no sturdier grounds when it comes to worth than the dollar is.

Melissia wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:Money has no intrinsic value other than that which is is bestowed.

Yes, and no.

Most modern money has no intrinsic value but that which we put our faith in.

However, systems which use a gold standard(and similar) ARE worth an intrinsic value, as they are backed upon a resources.

Which itself doesn't have any intrinsic value.

Now, the ancient Japanese unit of Koku (amount of rice to feed a man for a year) is worth something, but gold? It's on no sturdier grounds when it comes to worth than the dollar is.

I once asked a question in my fourth grade class. I went something like this: Why is gold and diamonds worth more than other minerals? Who decided the value of gold? Why didn't the people who decided which resource is worth something use stone as currency instead of stone?

I stumped my teacher. Yet to this day, I often still ponder this question. Gold is rare, and other than the base use as jewelry and adornments that defines other uses such as trade and social status, it is valueless. So why is it that our ancestors agreed to use gold as currency? What made it more valuable than stone and marble, of which they can use to biuld shelter, or tools to hunt?

Because it's shiny. Don't ask me, I think silver's better looking. And more valuable too, as it has more use than gold in chemistry as well.

Justus wrote:Where does the Imperium get all of it's money for production of just about everything in their arsenal? Or do all the people just work for free on the gak in the factories?

Well they don't actually get money....

It works something like this:

-Some planets pay tax in troops ( Imperial Guard Regiments ).
-Others pay in Mechanized vehicles ( Forge Worlds ).
-Others pay by giving them resources ( Mine Planets ).
-Some pay them in food ( Agri Worlds ) and water ( Ocean Worlds ).
-Some of them combine something ( like giving only the money witch is used to give to other planets to pay their workers and to aquire materials ).
-Others don't pay at all ( Shrine Worlds, Segmentum Capitals, Sol planets, Fortress Worlds and Adeptus Astartes worlds ).

Overall, they use money from "other" worlds to buy materials who are then shipped to certain other worlds and then used to build war machines, ships etc... Other worlds just pay tax differently.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

I once asked a question in my fourth grade class. I went something like this: Why is gold and diamonds worth more than other minerals? Who decided the value of gold? Why didn't the people who decided which resource is worth something use stone as currency instead of stone?

I stumped my teacher. Yet to this day, I often still ponder this question. Gold is rare, and other than the base use as jewelry and adornments that defines other uses such as trade and social status, it is valueless. So why is it that our ancestors agreed to use gold as currency? What made it more valuable than stone and marble, of which they can use to biuld shelter, or tools to hunt?

Gold is valuable precisely because it is useless.

See, stone, fur and food are useful, and collecting them means not much. Everyone needs food to eat, buiildings to live in, and clothes to wear!

However, if you're collecting gold? Something that's too soft to use as a weapon or as a structure? It's a sign that you are so well off that you don't have to gather the raw resources you need to live. E.g. your rich.

Unless you're an Aztec.

ChrisWWII wrote:
Gold is valuable precisely because it is useless.

Gold is useful for ostentation and decoration. Even the Ancients knew how to gild objects.

Gold salts also have medicinal anti-inflammatory uses. Pharmaceuticals still use it.

Gold can also be made into thread and a coloring agent.

Gold DOES have an intrinsic value to people beyond monetary value.

Platuan4th wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:
Gold is valuable precisely because it is useless.

Gold is useful for ostentation and decoration. Even the Ancients knew how to gild objects.

Gold salts also have medicinal anti-inflammatory uses. Pharmaceuticals still use it.

The other good thing about gold is that it's non-reactive. Don't want your primitive screwhead money rusting away. Its softness and relatively low melting point made it pretty easy to mint coins with it.

daveNYC wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:
Gold is valuable precisely because it is useless.

Gold is useful for ostentation and decoration. Even the Ancients knew how to gild objects.

Gold salts also have medicinal anti-inflammatory uses. Pharmaceuticals still use it.

The other good thing about gold is that it's non-reactive. Don't want your primitive screwhead money rusting away. Its softness and relatively low melting point made it pretty easy to mint coins with it.

This is exactly why gold is great for a currency.

1) It's pretty
2) It's easy to work with, or stamp the King's portrait in
3) It won't tarnish over time
4) It's relatively rare, so people can't go making money by digging in their back yard


As for the diamond issue, diamond's are expensive simply because of marketing. They're rare and pretty, so were worth a lot of money. But, until recently, they weren't really worth more than sapphires or rubies or other rare gems. De Beers convinced everyone that diamonds are worth so much more by making them the "traditional" engagement ring, and convincing everyone to not re-sell their diamonds because its an heirloom.

And because as others said, it is shiny. The added properties of ductibility, maleable, resistant to corrosion and a very aesthetic look, makes it very valuable for those who want to be ostentous and impressive.

There have been other very appreciated goods like Quetzal feathers or jade for Aztec/Mayan cultures for instance that were on par with gold in value but were not so widespread in other countries/kingdoms/cultures. What makes gold stand apart is is that it has been worldwide appreciated since the very beginnings of civilization.

Gold is good because it is finite. Money can get out of control if you keep making more of it, like that African country with 1,000,000,000 bills.

Orks have the best economic system ever: Teef!

I don't think this is the place to go over why the gold standard is a bad idea.

The Imperium gets its resources in tithes, as described above.

I recall Imperial Crowns coming up in fluff. Gold colored coins with Big-E on'em. I think they came up in Gaunt's Ghosts and maybe in Ravenor.

Platuan4th wrote:

Abstract Catalyst wrote:Money has no intrinsic value other than that which is is bestowed.

Yes, and no.

Most modern money has no intrinsic value but that which we put our faith in.

However, systems which use a gold standard(and similar) ARE worth an intrinsic value, as they are backed upon a resources.

How can that be true? All a gold standard or similar does is remove the subjectivity by one step, so now that rather than have a subjectively valued currency, you have a currency with a value tied to a subjectively valued material. If gold had an intrinsic worth, it's price would be constant, and if we learned nothing else from the recent globalfucktastrophy, we learned that the price of gold varies hugely. How is that variation any different, in an objective sense, from the variations in the value of a nation's currency? Both are driven by perceived worth.

As for the Imperium; we're talking about a galaxy-spanning totalitarian state who's main role is strategic reassignment of resources in order to ensure all the individual subservient planets continue functioning. They tithe crops and meat from agri-worlds and give it to industrial or hive worlds. They tithe raw materials from industrial worlds and give it to the Mechanicus or hive worlds. A proportion of those materials are then tithed back in the form of farming equipment, mining equipment, pre-fab infrastructure etc, and end up back where they started in this new form. And the Imperium take a cut off the top, along with an occasional tithe of people, in order to keep their gigantic military machine manned, trained, and equipped. Money doubtless exists, but any Imperial standard is likely only used as a medium for the wealthy to exchange local currencies, or as a way for the Administratum to "keep score", and what value it has would largely be a matter of what the Administratum SAY it is.

It doesn't. We value gold because... well, just because. We just do. Outside of this perceived value, gold is actually rather worthless.

In a time of strife, which everyone investing in gold is envisioning, as if they could trade gold to raiders for goods or something, I'd rather deal in steel. You can make things out of steel. Armor, weapons, tools, whatever. Gold? Gold is pretty... but that's all it is.

Extending that to the Imperium... well, gold is pretty and shiny, but, hey, not that rare. Could be that the AdMech finds an asteroid belt filled with giant asteroids made of solid gold. Or a mineral-rich planet with high gold content. Or... well, whatever.

The difference between taxes and tithes is that we pay taxes to a government and expect services in return. You pay tithes, and expect nothing in return. You pay tax to a government, you tithe to a religion.

DarknessEternal wrote:Why would they need money? Money is a shared illusion that makes people feel their time is valuable. The Imperium doesn't value its citizen's time.

A civilization needs currency to function properly. Been that case throughout the history of humanity.

Imperium has standard currency, credits. Though often people/food/weapons will also suffice instead of money. You'll also find local money on most worlds.

I believe each sector is allowed to use its own currency as in Dark Heresy it is thrones. The Imperium then requires taxes from planents in the form of tithes of resources and man power...ie guardsmen.

The imperium taxes it's planets like any other political entity

Those planets have a choice as to how they pay. Manpower or material or cash.

As for actual currency, each subsector tends to have a common currancy for civilian trade. Employees of the government will be paid in the local currency(Either aquired through taxes or sale of government material to the locals) of course.

There is a Imperial Credit which is mentioned as being a means of imperial agents purchasing stuff. The people who get the credits can spend them like money and they eventually get given back as taxes.

Sadly, for a more complete answer we will have to wait for Codex: Administratum (scheduled for 2020, just before the next Tau book) which will enlighten us all as to such fascinating details as the Imperium's Public Sector Borrowing Requirement and offer a thrilling insight into the workings of the Imperial Treasury's Monetary Policy Committee.

Mat Ward's going to write it; it'll be the roxxors.