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The most powerful weapon is the money multiplier. It's a str D appoc blast

Grey Templar wrote:The most powerful weapon is the money multiplier. It's a str D appoc blast

Really? I heard it's $17.50 per point of Strength per shot. IE., if you spend $140, you get a Strength 8 Blast.

It's also $10.25 per blast upgrade.

So for the full St D 10" Blast, you need to pay $223.25 every turn you want to fire it.

To use it, you need to also buy the $56.50 Credit Card swipe machine shaped like the gun itself.

It has just occurred to me that it is also possible that the Imperium gets its money by selling overpriced plastic soldiers to the the foolish inhabitants of its more backwards worlds.

Platuan4th wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The most powerful weapon is the money multiplier. It's a str D appoc blast

Really? I heard it's $17.50 per point of Strength per shot. IE., if you spend $140, you get a Strength 8 Blast.

It's also $10.25 per blast upgrade.

So for the full Str D 10" Blast, you need to pay $223.25 every turn you want to fire it.

To use it, you need to also buy the $56.50 Credit Card swipe machine shaped like the gun itself.

Of course, but that weaker version is on GWs "secret products page"(like In-n-out or Starbuck's secret menu) so that most people get suckered into buying the more expensive version which costs the $56.50 plus the maxed out "ammo"



they are also releasing a new piece of terrain which looks like this building(FYI: its just sad that when you Google "The Fed" the first bajillion websites are all conspiracy theory ones and not the Feds actual website)

They borrow from China.

I like English Assassin's answer!

ChrisWWII wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

I once asked a question in my fourth grade class. I went something like this: Why is gold and diamonds worth more than other minerals? Who decided the value of gold? Why didn't the people who decided which resource is worth something use stone as currency instead of stone?

I stumped my teacher. Yet to this day, I often still ponder this question. Gold is rare, and other than the base use as jewelry and adornments that defines other uses such as trade and social status, it is valueless. So why is it that our ancestors agreed to use gold as currency? What made it more valuable than stone and marble, of which they can use to biuld shelter, or tools to hunt?

Gold is valuable precisely because it is useless.

See, stone, fur and food are useful, and collecting them means not much. Everyone needs food to eat, buiildings to live in, and clothes to wear!

However, if you're collecting gold? Something that's too soft to use as a weapon or as a structure? It's a sign that you are so well off that you don't have to gather the raw resources you need to live. E.g. your rich.

Gold is also valuable because it is almost entirely non-reactive - meaning it can be used to create jewellery that doesn't tarnish, and in more modern uses be uses for surgical equipment to stop irritation, and used in the form of thin layers to allow for the keeping of volatile and highly reactive chemicals for longer periods of time than are possible in standard conditions.

ChrisWWII wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

I once asked a question in my fourth grade class. I went something like this: Why is gold and diamonds worth more than other minerals? Who decided the value of gold? Why didn't the people who decided which resource is worth something use stone as currency instead of stone?

I stumped my teacher. Yet to this day, I often still ponder this question. Gold is rare, and other than the base use as jewelry and adornments that defines other uses such as trade and social status, it is valueless. So why is it that our ancestors agreed to use gold as currency? What made it more valuable than stone and marble, of which they can use to biuld shelter, or tools to hunt?

Gold is valuable precisely because it is useless.

See, stone, fur and food are useful, and collecting them means not much. Everyone needs food to eat, buiildings to live in, and clothes to wear!

However, if you're collecting gold? Something that's too soft to use as a weapon or as a structure? It's a sign that you are so well off that you don't have to gather the raw resources you need to live. E.g. your rich.

Here is why gold is valuable.


originally, all commerce was based on trade. I would give you a dozen eggs if you gave me a bucket of milk(cause I don't have a cow and you don't have any chickens)

this method worked fine in small villages, but it required both parties to have something the other wanted. which didn't always happen(maybe you have chickens and don't need eggs, but I want your milk)

Jewelry would have been one of those items traded for, becuase we are a vain species. a guy would have mined Gold(or other precious metals) and made it into pretty things to wear.


eventually, people realized that the barter system didn't work very well one a large scale. a Medium of Exchange was required. something that stood for a unit of value that was also easy to transport(so I don't have to lug a bunch of eggs around with me)

Gold, Silver, copper and other metals fit the bill. they could be made small enough to carry around and could be made uniform in size, weight, and shape(and, by extension, value)

Gold is only useless in certain circumstances. we have many modern uses for it. in ancient times, it was purely used for money and decoration.


precious metals are fairly stable in value because it is almost impossable for the market to be flooded with it due to their rarity. the reason gold fluctuates its value in modern times is because it is now a generic commodity and not the basic method of establishing worth. people still use it to store wealth because, as a physical object, it is more secure then having money in stocks or bonds. Gold is unlikely to dip in price because most areas with large gold deposits have already been mined. the rise in gold value is also due to inflation of the Fiat Money used today and not because gold has actually gone up in value.

the only time a precious metal was actually in a glut was during the height of the spanish empire as gold and silver from mines in the New World came rushing into the coffers. the amount of avaliable gold went up exponentially and led to economic collapse due to the false Mercantilist view that gold(and other precious metals/stones) was wealth.


Economic Theory has evolved to the point where Gold isn't needed to keep the value of currency stable. the national banks can do that using the various tools at their disposal. not having a gold standard actually means there is more control over an economy then when there is. you can't reduce/increase the money in circulation without also reducing/increasing the amount or value of the gold.

Tangental but relevant to wealth in the Imperium...

In the early days of my DH campaign, I wanted the party to learn to work together and not rely on the influence of their Inquisitorial masters so much, or his then-Interrogator.

So, the typical MO was for the Inquisitor to give the party a sack of money, drop them off on a planet, and then go do other, more important, Inquisitor things while telling the party "figure out what's going on here, I'll be back to pick you up in a couple months".

So, one day, one player decides that he and the gun-bunny Assassin in the party deserve bolt pistols, and he finds a guy who's selling them on the down-low. He snags the party bag o' cash when no one's looking, takes the ride out to this guy, and buys both bolt pistols. With the money left over, he's got just enough cash to buy him and the Assassin half a magazine each (at 16t a round). An entire magazine of bolter ammunition for these pistols costs more than the Assassin made in a month.

Having spent all of his (and the party's) money, getting back to the party was an adventure in and of itself.

... and this is how the Imperium keeps itself in business. It produces things that a good percentage of its population (Rogue Traders, their crews, Bounty Hunters, Freelance Assassins, various criminals, low-ranking Inquisitorial flunkies, etc etc) spend large sums of money on just to do their jobs. This money, which originated with the Imperium, returns to the Imperium's coffers and, if things go according to plan, the goods also return to the Imperium's stocks (upon the death or capture of the item's owner) to be sold again and again and again, for the same price as a brand-new model.

So gold is used by our ancestors as solid currency simply because its more efficient than other materials, yet outside of being used as money, it cannot be used for anything else but decoration?
Sounds like the story of The Emperors New Clothes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

Btw, sorry about all the errors in my first post, I usually try as hard as possible to get everything correct, and I pride myself on having extremely good writing skills.

Gold does actually have some uses as industrial material, these days. It's not much, but it does mean we need gold doing better things than being horded.

LumenPraebeo wrote:So gold is used by our ancestors as solid currency simply because its more efficient than other materials, yet outside of being used as money, it cannot be used for anything else but decoration?
Sounds like the story of The Emperors New Clothes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

you say that like its a bad thing. a medium of exchange and store of value is an important job. so what if its the only practical thing to do with it, it was a important thing that gold did and continues to do.

Yes, of course we have use for gold now, but that isn't relevant to my question. I would be ashamed of humanity if we still couldn't find a use for a mineral we've been using as commodity for the last 12,000 years.

My question was why did our ancestors use gold as currency? It's not like they could have used it for anything other than for the excuse "Oooh, shiny!" Perhaps that is why it is used as currency after all, but that would be a stupid reason wouldn't you think? If it IS the reason, then the economy, the market and trades we have built upon this very basic concept would be a major face-palm.

But that's the thing. If it's useful, people use it. So food gets eaten, cloth is worn, steel turns into household objects.

To be useful as a currency, it needs to only be used as a currency. It can be exchanged for anything, and so everyone wants it, and so we can have a functional economy.

Well...

Our current economy is based on "imagination", and our physical currency is made out of cotton, so...

LumenPraebeo wrote:Yes, of course we have use for gold now, but that isn't relevant to my question. I would be ashamed of humanity if we still couldn't find a use for a mineral we've been using as commodity for the last 12,000 years.

My question was why did our ancestors use gold as currency? It's not like they could have used it for anything other than for the excuse "Oooh, shiny!" Perhaps that is why it is used as currency after all, but that would be a stupid reason wouldn't you think? If it IS the reason, then the economy, the market and trades we have built upon this very basic concept would be a major face-palm.

"Oooh, its shiny" is a perfectly legitimate reason.


Why do you paint your miniatures? or at least wish you could paint your miniatures?

So they look nice.


"Nice" is, of course, a completely objective opinion. But it is the reason why we used gold.

Gold, to most people, looks nice(I personally prefer silver) and therefore is subject to "Irrational" labels of value and worth.


But, when something is valuable to someone it can potentially become valuable to someone else.

If I want lots of this shiny yellow metal called Gold because I think its pretty then I will try and get some of it.

Say you have some Gold laying about. you don't care for it one bit.

but then you hear how I want the Gold. you can either just give it to me because you have no use for it. or you can be a sneaky git and try and get something from me in exchange for the gold.

suddenly, the gold is actually valuable to you simply because its valuable to me.

They don't need money, they owe everything, however, royalty is taxed.

For some reason I kinda think the Imperium is more like a Fascist Napoleonic Empire type. Im pretty sure the Imperium taxes the crap outta of its planets and such for protection. So essentially the Emperor is the Mob and his domain is paying for his protection lol

LumenPraebeo wrote:Yes, of course we have use for gold now, but that isn't relevant to my question. I would be ashamed of humanity if we still couldn't find a use for a mineral we've been using as commodity for the last 12,000 years.

My question was why did our ancestors use gold as currency? It's not like they could have used it for anything other than for the excuse "Oooh, shiny!" Perhaps that is why it is used as currency after all, but that would be a stupid reason wouldn't you think? If it IS the reason, then the economy, the market and trades we have built upon this very basic concept would be a major face-palm.

Ancient peoples used many things as currency. Some cultures have used shells, others stone in various shapes, and others food. However ultimately most major civilizations eventually settled on various forms of metal, one of which was gold, though base metal coinage such as copper was used in ancient times as well for lower denomination transactions.

Metals are relatively rare as compared to commodities such as food, yet not so rare as to be an excessively small money supply. Rarity means the supply is more or less limited, and the specialized technology and knowledge to make meant control of the money supply was more easily managed. Metals don't appreciably deteriorate in storage whereas food rots. The rarity of metals mean they are also a more compact store of value as compared to commodities such as lumber or stone.

Metals are also fungible, meaning one unit of metal is perceived as equivalent in value to a unit of that same metal. Things like gems can have widely varying qualities based on the cut or shape of the gem or other individual qualities, and thus varying perceptions of value. So a given amount of gemstone is not perceived as equivalent necessarily to another given amount of gemstone.

However at the ultimate level, any currency has value only if the society within it perceives it to have value. The Incas for example used gold and silver for religious and decorative purposes only. It had no monetary value in their society and other commodities were used as a store of value and currency.

With regards to the Imperium, it cannot really even establish a truly centralized government. The Imperium is really more a collection of far flung societies, loosely organized into sectors, with a few overarching common themes in their religion and ideology. Communication and travel is unreliable or slow. In such a situation where there is so little agreement and so much factionalization, it is entirely reasonable for the Imperium to revert to dealing with direct commodity distribution such as actual shipments of food, weapons, or raw industral materials. To impose a single currency would require a degree of centralized control that the Imperium simply cannot achieve.

Welcome to Dakka.

Interesting points that I largely agree with. I would postulate that certain communities would have their own sort of internal currency used for small transactions. Such as a Hive City. It also throws the point of the Noble Houses into question. They're a fairly high-up organization that holds a significant amount of influence and wealth. What would their wealth be measured in? Control? The number of favors they're owed?

iproxtaco wrote:Welcome to Dakka.

Hello. A long time old Warseer and Portent member moving over due to heavy handed mods. They seem to be doing their best to kill off their old posters and the quality of background discussions there has been on a downward trend.

Interesting points that I largely agree with. I would postulate that certain communities would have their own sort of internal currency used for small transactions. Such as a Hive City. It also throws the point of the Noble Houses into question. They're a fairly high-up organization that holds a significant amount of influence and wealth. What would their wealth be measured in? Control? The number of favors they're owed?

No need to postulate. We know hive cities have their own currencies. Just refer to the Necromunda rulebook which has a good section on what the situation is like in a typical hive. They use Guilder credits (the Guild being a network of merchants and suppliers governing inter-House trade at least within Hive Primus).

The noble houses and indeed even the not so noble houses in a hive city, such as the Necromunda Hive Primus, are all in a web of favors owed and favors due in a microcosm of the Imperium itself. Each of the Houses rules its own domain within the hive and governs its own affairs so long as it doesn't violate Imperial law. The Imperial Governor and his House is at the apex of the power structure and hands out landing and shipping rights and tax concessions to the noble houses, which have to compete for them. Thus the Imperial Governor's house and the noble houses are the ones with access to all interstellar trade. These noble houses in turn hand down manufacturing contracts to the manufacturing houses of the main hive city proper, presumably paying in either local currency or in raw materials and interstellar imports. Manufactured goods are traded up to the noble houses and shipped out as exports.

However I don't see the interstellar trading contracts, in a system where contracts can last generations such as for Chartist captains, as anything more than just another form of feudal arrangement of an exchange of commodities and goods. I can see the local currencies of major worlds like hive worlds or the sector capital having some value on other worlds that have significant interstellar trade, or with Imperial institutions, but they would not have value necessarily on any other world, even within the same sub-sector or sector.

Interesting. I really need to pick up these ruleooks, they hold more information than first thought.

Grakmar wrote:

As for the diamond issue, diamond's are expensive simply because of marketing. They're rare and pretty, so were worth a lot of money. But, until recently, they weren't really worth more than sapphires or rubies or other rare gems. De Beers convinced everyone that diamonds are worth so much more by making them the "traditional" engagement ring, and convincing everyone to not re-sell their diamonds because its an heirloom.

Diamonds have roughly the same level of utility as gold (diamond is used in glass cutters, drills, laser applications, etc. although the qualities that make industrial diamonds useful are different from the ones that make jewelry diamonds pretty). Either way, in both the case of diamond and gold, the practical application came after they were deemed valuable. The value for both should be based upon their relative rarities and level of utility (i.e. supply and demand), unfortunately the prices for both are grossly overinflated (gold is not truly worth hundreds of dollars an ounce, etc.) by market forces (largely due to peoples stupidity in believing that should the global economy fail, they will still have wealth in the form of gold. In reality, the guy who has more ammunition and food will wield more economic and political power than a guy with a mountain of gold if things really get bad).

Then again, I'm rather bitter you could say when it comes to economics. Its a lot of smoke and mirrors and circular logic (as in the flow of money can be described as a serpent biting its tail).

Iracundus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Welcome to Dakka.

Hello. A long time old Warseer and Portent member moving over due to heavy handed mods. They seem to be doing their best to kill off their old posters and the quality of background discussions there has been on a downward trend.

Iracundus!! I remember you from my old warseer days, I left for the same reason, except I got kicked out rather than left willingly, lol. Never got an explanation for that one either, just logged in to a banned notification one day. You're amongst friends and like minded posters here, welcome home

Diamonds can actually be created from cheaper materials, so arguably they're less valuable than gold, but they're also more useful, especially in 40k where they're used in weaponry.

Melissia wrote:Diamonds can actually be created from cheaper materials, so arguably they're less valuable than gold, but they're also more useful, especially in 40k where they're used in weaponry.

I dont know much about synthetic diamonds but I always heard that both their hardness and aesthetic appeal were inferior to real diamonds, making them less than useful in both industrial and jewelry applications.

Now that you mention this, does anyone else find it interesting that the practice of alchemy was devoted (in part) to discovering a way to turn lead into gold, but if they actually succeeded, they would have made gold relatively worthless, and thus have wasted all their time in developing the process?

You *can* turn lead into gold... however, the gold you end up with is highly radioactive, so it's not very useful, at least as jewelry.

The AdMech, what with their various graviton beams and mass-compilers and other magi-tech can probably create perfect diamonds by tossing lumps of coal into the Mr. Diamond diamond maker, pressing a button, and waiting 15 minutes.

Synthetic Diamonds are, in some case, superior to real diamonds in their clarity. thats one way to tell a good fake diamond from the real, its too perfect with no flaws. Or so I have heard.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The value for both should be based upon their relative rarities and level of utility (i.e. supply and demand), unfortunately the prices for both are grossly overinflated (gold is not truly worth hundreds of dollars an ounce, etc.) by market forces (largely due to peoples stupidity in believing that should the global economy fail, they will still have wealth in the form of gold. In reality, the guy who has more ammunition and food will wield more economic and political power than a guy with a mountain of gold if things really get bad).

Rather than looking at gold and other commodities as overinflated, another way to look at it is the dollars are devalued. That's the tricky bit about the modern financial system. The units of currency have no inherent value and have only relative value with respect to other currencies and with commodities. Even industrial commodities like iron, oil, or uranium only have value in so far as it is needed by industries.

At its most basic level, the only commodities with undeniable inherent value to humans are food and water. No amount of wriggling will change the fact humans need to eat and drink, and the amount necessary to keep someone alive has not changed.

Iracundus wrote:

Hello. A long time old Warseer and Portent member moving over due to heavy handed mods. They seem to be doing their best to kill off their old posters and the quality of background discussions there has been on a downward trend.

Iracundus!! I remember you from my old warseer days, I left for the same reason, except I got kicked out rather than left willingly, lol. Never got an explanation for that one either, just logged in to a banned notification one day. You're amongst friends and like minded posters here, welcome home

Who said I left willingly? I said it was due to heavy handed mods, and their clique just rubber stamping each other's knee jerk reactions to people complaining about being asked to prove their points with quoted sources.

My bad, I assumed since you didn't say you were banned that you had a choice in the matter.

I personally always imagined it as "We don't have money. Why do we need to pay the factory workers" kind of thing. They simply dedicate all of their resources to war, no questions asked or tolerated for that matter.