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When Abbadon takes a shield breaker round from the Vindicare Assassin (VA) does he lose his invol for the rest of the game?

The reasoning for this is as such- his invol provided by the terminator armor is lost as it is wargear. His mark of the Chaos ascendant (MCA) states only that it buffs the save from his terminator armor so since the terminator armor save is lost, so is the save conferred by the MCA. Another angle is that even with the mark, with the terminator armor lost it would default to the mark of tzeench witch in itself is wargear thus lost as well.

The reasoning against is simply, since the MCA is listed under special rules he would lose the 4+ given by the tzeench terminator combo but retain a 5+ from the MCA.

any ideas?

RAW he doesn't get a save, as his special mark says so and is not a mark of Tzeench by rules.

RAI he would probably have a 5++ because it's a mark of Tzeench by fluff.

Just discuss it with any GK opponent before the game.

I am really angry now!I few games ago I fired a shield breaker on him,and he still got his save as it was a special rule,apparently.He nearly cost me the game!He was 3" away from the objective.We both had none.If it was a draw,the Imperial side(me)won by default.

The game ended with him saving a turbo penetrator shot,which would have taken his last 2 wounds.


Later,we realised I had actually won as he couldn't claim objectives.I was too far away to claim it.

Jidmah wrote:RAW he doesn't get a save, as his special mark says so and is not a mark of Tzeench by rules.

RAI he would probably have a 5++ because it's a mark of Tzeench by fluff.

Just discuss it with any GK opponent before the game.

I am really not sure how to argue this.

MoT would have to be wargear because it can be part of the icon of Tzeentch, and shooting a CSM in the icon's unit would have that marine lose his Invul(since it came from Wargear).

Furthermore, MoT has 1 of 2 effects; either a 5++ or +1 invul; Abaddon normally has an invul, thus he gains +1 and could never gain the 5++(since the 5++ goes to models that do not normally have an invul save).

Since he intentionally has a 5++ that gets increased(even says right in the mark of ascension that the MoT increases his Termie armor invul); then RAI is no invul for Abaddon.

RAW the mark of chaos ascendant grants the effects of all the icons, meaning once he has no invun save from anything else, he has a 5+. However this doesn't take effect until after the vindicare shoots him, so you do one wound automatically to abby.

RAW youre wrong Jurai; he NORMALLY has an invul and therefore only gets the +1 to the save - which he doesnt have. You dont get to pretend that being shot by a vindicare is a "normal" situation.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Jidmah wrote:RAW he doesn't get a save, as his special mark says so and is not a mark of Tzeench by rules.

RAI he would probably have a 5++ because it's a mark of Tzeench by fluff.

Just discuss it with any GK opponent before the game.

I am really not sure how to argue this.

MoT would have to be wargear because it can be part of the icon of Tzeentch, and shooting a CSM in the icon's unit would have that marine lose his Invul(since it came from Wargear).

Furthermore, MoT has 1 of 2 effects; either a 5++ or +1 invul; Abaddon normally has an invul, thus he gains +1 and could never gain the 5++(since the 5++ goes to models that do not normally have an invul save).

Since he intentionally has a 5++ that gets increased(even says right in the mark of ascension that the MoT increases his Termie armor invul); then RAI is no invul for Abaddon.

edited: n/m, see below.

Actually I'm inclined to agree. I would say he has a 5+ invulnerable save. He has the special rule "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" which gives him all 4 marks of chaos. However Marks of chaos aren't wargear, they're are just powers that give a squad a boost. If you look at the army selection for things like Thousand Sons and Plague Marines(and yes Abbadon) Mark of Nurgle/Mark of Tzeentch is a special rule.

If Abbadon was shot he would lose his 4++ because it was originally 5++ but then increased to 4++ by Mark. But now he no longer has an invulnerable save granted by terminator armor, therefore Mark of Tzeentch dictates that it is set to 5++

Even if it is a Rule,I would not agree.He gets a 5++(Armour)Which is then increased to 4++.If he lost the original save,he would lose the improvement too.

Yeah you're right, actually had to dig out a codex to check. Kel usually isn't wrong on rules so I trusted him blindly

I return to my original answer.

Deadshot wrote:Even if it is a Rule,I would not agree.He gets a 5++(Armour)Which is then increased to 4++.If he lost the original save,he would lose the improvement too.

Mark of Tzeentch increases a save by 1. If a model doesn't have an invulnerable save, then it's gets a 5+.

Terminator Armor grants 5++
Mark of Tzeentch increases that to 4++
Turbo Penetrator takes away invulnerable save given by wargear, so no 4++ save.
Mark of Tzeentch dictates that a model without an invulnerable save gets a 5++ if it doesn't already have one. Beacuse Abbadon no longer has one, he gets a 5++.
This 5++ can stay because it it granted by a special rule and not a piece of wargear.

He did start with a save,so no.Bye Bye Abby-dawn.

BSent wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Even if it is a Rule,I would not agree.He gets a 5++(Armour)Which is then increased to 4++.If he lost the original save,he would lose the improvement too.

Mark of Tzeentch increases a save by 1. If a model doesn't have an invulnerable save, then it's gets a 5+.

Terminator Armor grants 5++
Mark of Tzeentch increases that to 4++
Turbo Penetrator takes away invulnerable save given by wargear, so no 4++ save.
Mark of Tzeentch dictates that a model without an invulnerable save gets a 5++ if it doesn't already have one. Beacuse Abbadon no longer has one, he gets a 5++.
This 5++ can stay because it it granted by a special rule and not a piece of wargear.

By RAW, his Mark of Tzeench doesn't provide him with a save. As his mark is unique, it might just as well not work the same as the four lower ones.

I'd say based purely on the wording of Mark of Tzeentch, Abaddon does not get a 5++ after the shield breaker round.

How MoT is worded, "Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain +1 to their invulnerable saves (to a maximum of 2+). If given to a model that does not normally have an invulnerable save, this Mark confers an invulnerable save of 5+."

The reason that I say based on the wording he doesn't get it is this little excerpt, "if given to a model that does not normally have an invulnerable save." First of all, you only "give" the marks during list construction, and that's the point when we determine whether the mark improves or confers an invulnerable. Since Abaddon has terminator armor, he normally has an invulnerable save. There is nothing in the rule that specifically states that he gains a 5++ when he has no invulnerable since normally he has an invulnerable save already.

Since it says specifically under Mark of Chaos ascendant that the first part is true. This line out of the rule tells us that, Because of the Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armor is increased to 4+." It tells us that part one of the rule is in effect, and since he normally has an invulnerable part does not come into play.

BSent wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Even if it is a Rule,I would not agree.He gets a 5++(Armour)Which is then increased to 4++.If he lost the original save,he would lose the improvement too.

Mark of Tzeentch increases a save by 1. If a model doesn't have an invulnerable save, then it's gets a 5+.

Terminator Armor grants 5++
Mark of Tzeentch increases that to 4++
Turbo Penetrator takes away invulnerable save given by wargear, so no 4++ save.
Mark of Tzeentch dictates that a model without an invulnerable save gets a 5++ if it doesn't already have one. Beacuse Abbadon no longer has one, he gets a 5++.
This 5++ can stay because it it granted by a special rule and not a piece of wargear.

Youre missing the word NORMALLY out of the Tz rule. Abby NORMALLY has an inv save so DOES NOT get the 5++

Nos has exactly what I was going to reiterate; Abaddon normally has a 5++ invulnerable save, the MoT via MoCA increases that normal 5++ to a 4++, abaddon's normal 5++ comes from his termie armor(specifically stated in MoCA), therefore the loss of the termi armor invul would lose the MoT Invul increase, and since the model normally has an invul save to begin with he will never get a MoT 5++.

The key thing you are missing is what do we determine as normally? The start of the game? The start of each turn?

If shot by the shieldbreaker round on turn one, abbadon would normally have no invun save from his army for the rest of the game. This is why I state he gets a 5+ from the MoCA. Until GW faq's this mishap of theirs, I will stand by this. Or until they define exactly what is normal in game terms.

As a chaos lord, he should have a 5++ anyway just naturally. It's unfortunate the icon mentions his terminator armour, as chaos lords wearing terminator armour technically have a 5++ from two sources. Due to an oversight in the rules, Abaddon's was forgotten and they think only of his terminator armour save.

The only problem I have in general with anything is the fact is that his enhanced Invulnerable save is 4++. Then they go on to say it in a special rule.

So by the grace of his special rule, his Terminator armor is 4++ and since his Terminator armor is listed under wargear, the fact of the matter is is that he loses that 4++ save.

The fluff for the Special Rules says he's melted down all four marks to give him a special rule enhancing his gear. the rules don't go out of their way to say that these marks are wargear. They list them under special rules.

So until they clarify that his special rules for the fluff melted down marks of Chaos as wargear, he will continue to lose his saves to a RAW assassin any day, as the mark's special rules do not provide a situation wherein they deal with what happens when 1/4th of his mark stops working on his armor.

But the general rule is ask the TO or GK player beforehand so that you get a consensus of what you guys want to do.

Spellbound wrote:As a chaos lord, he should have a 5++ anyway just naturally. It's unfortunate the icon mentions his terminator armour, as chaos lords wearing terminator armour technically have a 5++ from two sources. Due to an oversight in the rules, Abaddon's was forgotten and they think only of his terminator armour save.

Only in the fluff though is he a Chaos Lord. It's like saying Marneus Calgar is a chapter master, or Vulkan He'stan is a captain. In the fluff they are, but the rules do not support this, as they have more highly individualized rules than the vanilla Chapter Master, Captain, or even Chaos Lord.

juraigamer wrote:The key thing you are missing is what do we determine as normally? The start of the game? The start of each turn?

In this situation we actually have a defined time as to when we determine normal is due to Mark of Tzeentch's wording. When the mark is given. As marks are "given" to the model at the finalization of list construction (aka before the game), this is the time when we determine if a model is "normally" equipped with an invulnerable save. Abaddon is not given his Mark of Chaos Ascendant after his terminator armor save is taken away, he is given it when you select him for the list. It is at that time that normal would be worked out.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. He SHOULD have it. It's an oversight. Not saying he gets his save, saying he should.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though GW has recently told us to use fluff for rules for the GK plasma siphon, so maybe we should take that example! I think that's a great idea.

Lone Dragoon wrote:
Only in the fluff though is he a Chaos Lord. It's like saying Marneus Calgar is a chapter master, or Vulkan He'stan is a captain. In the fluff they are, but the rules do not support this, as they have more highly individualized rules than the vanilla Chapter Master, Captain, or even Chaos Lord.

In this situation we actually have a defined time as to when we determine normal is due to Mark of Tzeentch's wording. When the mark is given. As marks are "given" to the model at the finalization of list construction (aka before the game), this is the time when we determine if a model is "normally" equipped with an invulnerable save. Abaddon is not given his Mark of Chaos Ascendant after his terminator armor save is taken away, he is given it when you select him for the list. It is at that time that normal would be worked out.

Well for starters Marneus plays like an super powerful chapter master. He has special rules that they get such as orbital bombardment and 3 honor guard squads, because he is a powerful chapter master. And Vulkan isn't a captain anyways. He was but he forewent that to become the forgefather. As such he can't take a command squad, because he isn't a captain.

Then it goes into the wording of the word "normally". Does Abbadon "normally" have an invulnerable save? Well normally, he isn't wearing his terminator armor, so he normally doesn't have one, only when he wears one. I know that' very cheesy/corny, and not sure how legal that even is! But I thought it would be funny to mention that.

BSent wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:
Only in the fluff though is he a Chaos Lord. It's like saying Marneus Calgar is a chapter master, or Vulkan He'stan is a captain. In the fluff they are, but the rules do not support this, as they have more highly individualized rules than the vanilla Chapter Master, Captain, or even Chaos Lord.

In this situation we actually have a defined time as to when we determine normal is due to Mark of Tzeentch's wording. When the mark is given. As marks are "given" to the model at the finalization of list construction (aka before the game), this is the time when we determine if a model is "normally" equipped with an invulnerable save. Abaddon is not given his Mark of Chaos Ascendant after his terminator armor save is taken away, he is given it when you select him for the list. It is at that time that normal would be worked out.

Well for starters Marneus plays like an super powerful chapter master. He has special rules that they get such as orbital bombardment and 3 honor guard squads, because he is a powerful chapter master. And Vulkan isn't a captain anyways. He was but he forewent that to become the forgefather. As such he can't take a command squad, because he isn't a captain.

Then it goes into the wording of the word "normally". Does Abbadon "normally" have an invulnerable save? Well normally, he isn't wearing his terminator armor, so he normally doesn't have one, only when he wears one. I know that' very cheesy/corny, and not sure how legal that even is! But I thought it would be funny to mention that.

Normally do you see Abby without his TA Armor?

juraigamer wrote:The key thing you are missing is what do we determine as normally? The start of the game? The start of each turn?

List construction, when you give people marks. AS defined in the rules for MoT - when you give someone MoT you increase their save OR give them a 5++. WHen do you do this? Before the game even starts.

You can stand by it all you like, but RAW youre wrong.

What I don't understand is why can't the save change throughout the game? What rule says "The save you have at the start of the game can never be changed"? Why can't he go from having a 4+, to having nothing which is counteracted by the MOT to have a 5+?

In fact, I would say that the counter example gives more weight to that idea. If you can REMOVE a save during the game, why can't you GAIN a save in the exact same fashion?

Because the rules dont allow it?

Normally Abaddon has a 5++ (increased to 4++ by MoCA) save. If you attempt to claim that being shot by a vindicare is a NORMAL situation, then you have a very different idea of normal (its about as abnormal a situation as you can get) to mot people.

nosferatu1001 wrote: If you attempt to claim that being shot by a vindicare is a NORMAL situation, then you have a very different idea of normal

Not true, at some FLGS being shot by a vindicare happens on the same frequency of saying hello. It's like a greeting in 40k.

That vindicare must have a huge army if the store can survive with him being the only customer leaving the store alive.

The real problem here is that GW has been wounderfully (excuse the pun) grey with the new daemon hunters codex. Vindicare used to be so clear cut and it would be alot easier if he regained his original abilities b/c then there would be no more questions but in an attempt to make the gk "new" they have created so many special rules that have no gounding in the actuall rulebook that its ridiculous.

Edit: My argument is, if you look at ahriman for example his mark of tzeench is listed under wargear, same for nurgle on typhus and khorne on kharn. while the MCA is a special rule, i think without the terminator armor you would default to the MoT which by example of every other character in the codex is an item of wargear and, thus, lost as well.

There is nothing vague about Shield-breaker.

There is also nothing vague about MoT.

All there is, is certain players wanting to disregard the wording in MoT and try to apply a 5++ as soon as the normal Invulnerable save is removed.

MoT is very clear: If model has an invulnerable save after you have purchased the model's wargear: increase the save by 1, If the model had no invulnerable save it gains a 5++.