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I saw someone use them for the first time today (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390594.page) and was surprised by how much damage they caused. Potentially 40 s5 i3 attacks in the first round with re-rolls to hit and wound is like a unit of plague monks with the one use re-roll to hit/wound banner. And S5.

Question wrote:I saw someone use them for the first time today (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390594.page) and was surprised by how much damage they caused. Potentially 40 s5 i3 attacks in the first round with re-rolls to hit and wound is like a unit of plague monks with the one use re-roll to hit/wound banner. And S5.

For the same cost, you get 4+ armor and WS4 with the Great Swords.
I think people shy away from Flagellants because they do the same job in the first round that Great Swords do every round.
Re-rolls to hit is nice, but in an empire army, you get that through warrior priests.
It's not a bad choice, but WS2 T3 no armor means your 30 guys won't be lasting all that long.

I do like that you can fill ~half of your core requirement with them.

-Matt

Flagellants have Frenzy Matt, so +1 attack and they can't lose it.

Still no armor and all that great swords do more over all and look cool.

Basically, you can choose frenzy, unbreakable, and Str 5 in the first round, or you can choose WS4, stubborn, a 4+ AS and Str 5 in every round of combat. I think it's a 50/50 call, to be honest, especially when you consider offsetting the reduced Str of the flagellants after round 1 with boosting spells.

But in really competitive games, what really hurts the flagellants is the unit cap. If I want a core, quality infantry unit, I know it's going to cop a lot of flak from my opponent. The maximum unit count for flagellants is 30, and it really isn't hard to wipe 15 or 20 of them from the game before they reach combat - not much point having a horde rules when there's only 15 alive when you get stuck in. On the other hand, I can take 50 greatswords, and with their 4+ save I know I'm going to get a good amount of that horde into combat.

I would love to use these guys in Storm of Magic. I think they'd enjoy the experience more than anything else.

From what ive seen a 4+ save is useless unless you are fighting s3 fodder.

I can see lore of light working really well with flagellants...not so much with greatswords due to ASL though.

4+ is 4+ never the less and that beats most things armor so I would not complain.

Question wrote:From what ive seen a 4+ save is useless unless you are fighting s3 fodder.

I can see lore of light working really well with flagellants...not so much with greatswords due to ASL though.

Against S5, it's like having 6 more guys.
Against S4, it's like having 15 more guys.
Against S3, it's like having 30 more.
4+ is enough armor to be significant. Those saves are often combat res not given up.
Now, combine that with WS2.

Not only are great swords making some saves, but Flagellants are getting hit a lot more.
+1 Attack from frenzy would be great if you could run enough flagellants to matter. From what I've seen, flagellants are stripped of some of the attacks before they even start rolling in combat.
Also not to be ignored is that Great Swords get command, can get magic banners, and can be joined by heroes.

I think they are both good, but the S3 in the 2nd round would lead me more towards great swords. Flagellents just don't have the punch after the charge.

And if you're talking about buffing with magic; Lore of Metal Great Swords (2+ armor, +1 to hit magical armor piecing attacks) is rad.

-Matt

Lore of metal is terrible unless you can choose the spells you want.

The only decent spells in it are the buffs, and they suffer from short range.

Also the armor buff is significantly worse than a 5+ ward or equavelent because it can be ignored by high S. But the biggest problem is 12 inch range. It means your greatswords basically have to hug the wizard's bunker unit.

sebster wrote:

But in really competitive games, what really hurts the flagellants is the unit cap.

This. 30 max is too few in todays meta.

They can hurt alot to an unsuspecting foe, though (I saw them chew through a newbie saurus temple guard unit) but anyone with a passing knowledge of empire will soften them up with shooting before engaging them (and T3 no armour means they fall quick).

I always use a unit of 30 Flaggies, Stick the pope mobile behind them and cast Speed of light (ws10 I10) on them when they charge into combat then see the other horde unit you just slammed into discintergrate. Potential of getting re-roll hit an dwound and maybe +1 combat res, WS10 I10 S5, i'd be scared of it!

i did this to a unit of 40 Dark Elf spearmen and then overran into a couldron of blood. 310 point unit killing 520 points of models is always good.

Gorillawizard wrote:I always use a unit of 30 Flaggies, Stick the pope mobile behind them and cast Speed of light (ws10 I10) on them when they charge into combat then see the other horde unit you just slammed into discintergrate. Potential of getting re-roll hit an dwound and maybe +1 combat res, WS10 I10 S5, i'd be scared of it!

i did this to a unit of 40 Dark Elf spearmen and then overran into a couldron of blood. 310 point unit killing 520 points of models is always good.

Any unit buffed by magic can do horrible things to T3 opponents 5+ save opponents.

-Matt

jouso wrote:

sebster wrote:

But in really competitive games, what really hurts the flagellants is the unit cap.

This. 30 max is too few in todays meta.

They can hurt alot to an unsuspecting foe, though (I saw them chew through a newbie saurus temple guard unit) but anyone with a passing knowledge of empire will soften them up with shooting before engaging them (and T3 no armour means they fall quick).

Non warmachine shooting is usually crappy.

Any unit buffed by magic can do horrible things to T3 opponents 5+ save opponents.

Unless they are s3 1a.

Question wrote:
Non warmachine shooting is usually crappy.

Non warmachine shooting isn't usually shooting at T3 naked guys. Point for point, skinks will kill them with just 1 round of shooting and a stand and fire. But, due to unit caps, it will take 2 units of skinks.
300 points of high elf archers; you know that crappy ones your talking about in other threads; 1 volley at long, 1 volley at short (15") and a stand and fire kills 22-23 of them, another ~7 drop from ASF.
300 points of dark elf shooters kills them all before they see melee.
300 points of dwarf xbows finishes the unit in melee.
300 points of orcs archers puts a big dent in them.

Point for point, I can't find a shooting unit with a range of 24" or greater that doesn't go toe to toe with Flagallents.

Question wrote:

Any unit buffed by magic can do horrible things to T3 opponents 5+ save opponents.

Unless they are s3 1a.

That all depends on the buff. +1S/+1T does wonders; as does mindrazor; or the skaven/goblins gain poison attacks.

10 points is a lot for a naked WS2 guy.
To put it into prospective, it's a skaven slave statline.

-Matt

Nobody is talking about equal points of shooting vs flagellants. Its like saying swordmasters are weak because equal points of shooting can kill them before they reach melee.

I was simply pointing out that in general, non warmachine shooting is crap. HE in particular...something like 220 pts to cause 5 t3 wounds a turn before saves? Pfft.

Skaven slaves arent unbreakable iwth frenzz and flails. Good thing too.

Question wrote:Non warmachine shooting is usually crappy.

Sure, and yet one turn a modest amount of non-warmachine shooting can kill enough flagellants to greatly reduce their effectiveness in combat. Despite being crappy, it's deadly enough to make a big difference against flagellants because they're crazy vulnerable. Never mind what effective ranged attacks like warmachines and some direct damage spells can do to them.

That's the plain and simple point being made here. Expensive, potentially deadly troops with T3, no save and a unit cap of 30 are very unlikely to reach combat in decent numbers to do what they're supposed to do. Whereas Greatswords can be taken in such numbers that their horde is still likely to be a horde by the time they reach combat, and the armour save is a nice bonus on top of that.

In less competitive environments it matters less. But when you get more competitive and start looking at a meta-environment full of big units, flagellants really stop working.

HE have not very good shooting but the thing is most of the time the flagellants are not very effective.

They dont have a high enough initiative to do anything.
Ws is terrible and cost 5 times as much as a slave for a bit of bonuses.
Over all even in cc I mean.
50 mok gw fc marauders (300points) would murder them.
Or 50 mot hw shield fc marauders (290) would at make a mess of them and last long enough to kill them.

No one said slaves are unbreakable.

Dwarf shooting is quite effective so is WE shooting.

The thing is they are not worth it over all maybe in small games maybe.

But its easy to see why great swords are more favored and why flagellants are not really seen that often.

I think that flagellents are only good when you have light magic augmenting them. Bironas timewarp and Speed of Light make them ws 10 with rerolls and ASF, which makes their deadly charge into a devastating charge. My problem is that you have to give them all of your magic to make them good.

Which is too much to risk on just 1 unit when you have a whole army to worry about.

cowpow16 wrote:Which is too much to risk on just 1 unit when you have a whole army to worry about.

Exactly. The thing is your army might suffer if you try to make them good.

So looking at it you should go for the unit that need very little baby sitting and dosnt need a lot of attention.

Great swords do their thing. I mean you can buff them for sure but they dont really need need it to be effective.

Gorillawizard wrote:I always use a unit of 30 Flaggies, Stick the pope mobile behind them and cast Speed of light (ws10 I10) on them when they charge into combat then see the other horde unit you just slammed into discintergrate. Potential of getting re-roll hit an dwound and maybe +1 combat res, WS10 I10 S5, i'd be scared of it!

i did this to a unit of 40 Dark Elf spearmen and then overran into a couldron of blood. 310 point unit killing 520 points of models is always good.

Ah this..although I prefer briona's timewarp for the extra attack!!!!

I use smaller units of flaggies though. I usually use 30-35 for my state troops, no more, as I prefer to have the extra regiment rather than 1 or 2 large units. Makes playing the game less boring, as I get to maneuver more things.

cowpow16 wrote:
50 mok gw fc marauders (300points) would murder them.

Mathhammer says no.
Flagellants, being on 20mm bases, simple go 14 wide against a marauder horde.
With the martyr thing, they can do ~30 kills in the first round, before the Marauders strike back.
With possible re-rolls to wound, and always re-rolling to hit, they go toe to toe with marauders.
It's very likely to come down to just a handful of models from each unit.

-Matt

Sorry let me rephrase I have seen a marauder horde murder the flaggelants.

By 2 different players ( not that it's just 1 guys terrible or great luck).

That is why I did not do the mathhammer Matt.

Seeing the math makes it seem very different.

cowpow16 wrote:Sorry let me rephrase I have seen a marauder horde murder the flaggelants.

By 2 different players ( not that it's just 1 guys terrible or great luck).

That is why I did not do the mathhammer Matt.

Seeing the math makes it seem very different.

The flagellants will take marauders to the last man; if they get the re-rolls to wound in the 2nd round. If not, marauders will come out ahead.
It's really too close to call either way, and it's really going to come down to the 1st round of combat. Whoever gets the bigger lead then, will have the manpower left to finish him.

The problem is, if something deep hits the flagellants and doesn't get broken (because of say, steadfast), then it's safe to pile in more support later on; the flagellants used their first round flail bonus, and are greatly reduced in hitting power.
If you need to stop a flagellent block, tzeech warriors with shields do an excellent job.

-Matt

The thing is you could be using your magic for so many better things than just pumping it into a overcosted small glass cannon. From a HE point of view you toss a Flames on them and laugh as the 30 strong unit hits 15 which you then polish up with spearmen or any other infantry unit in the HE army.

40 great weapon khorne marauders 5 wide will beat the flaggys most times. If you go 10 wide, you will lose.

Flaggys get 18 attacks, 12 hit, 9 wound.
marauders get 15 attacks, 12 hit 9 wound.

marauders are steadfast and win combat with banner and ranks

next round, flaggys get 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound
marauders get 15 attacks, 12 hit 9 wound

its a grind but with average rolls, marauders win when 5 wide, 6 deep.

that has been my experience

Flagellants would actaully hit 13.5 times in the first round if they matyrd a dude and they won't lose frenzy when they lose a combat.

still, with infantry being much better at holding ground nowadays, Flagellants don't have as much use as before.

TCWarRoom wrote:40 great weapon khorne marauders 5 wide will beat the flaggys most times. If you go 10 wide, you will lose.

Flaggys get 18 attacks, 12 hit, 9 wound.
marauders get 15 attacks, 12 hit 9 wound.

marauders are steadfast and win combat with banner and ranks

next round, flaggys get 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound
marauders get 15 attacks, 12 hit 9 wound

its a grind but with average rolls, marauders win when 5 wide, 6 deep.

that has been my experience

5 wide marauders is 125mm.
20mm flagellants get 8 models in base to base; 2 attacks in the front, and 8+8 from the 2nd and 3rd rank.
Flaggy's get 32 attacks, hitting with 24 during a martyr (you always get re-rolls to hit), killing on 2's (maybe with rerolls) so they average 20 kills.
Marauders come back with 15, 10 hits (2/3rds hit) and killing 2+ (with is 8-9 kills).

After that, it comes down to if the flagellants get the re-rolls to wound on the martyr. Either way, it's a close fight, with typically neither unit coming out of the fight in good shape.

-Matt