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I wanted to convert a C'tan model into an Avatar of Cegorach for a while now, make it count as The Avatar of Khaine. But, the entry in the Lexicanum about Harlequins gave me another idea.

Harlequin - Lecixanum wrote:The Harlequins believe that [the Laughing God's] intrinsic light-hearted personality ensured he kept his distance from the depravity and corruption that became Slaanesh and that he survives to this day, often taking the form of a Harlequin himself - with those that meet him in this guise only becoming aware of his presence after he has left.

The Avatar of Cegorach - 200 - HQ (doesn't use a slot in the FoC

WS 8 BS 6 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 7 A 4 Ld 10 Sv -

Individual: An army can only include one Avatar of Cegorach.

Unit Type: Monsterous Creature

Wargear:
Fhaisorr'ko - The Shadow point: The Shadow Point is a powerfull weapon that is made in part out of Warp energy, it may take the form of an elegant staff, a gracefull sword, or a set of vicious twin daggers. It has the following profile:

Range: 18'' S: 6 AP: 1 Assault 2

Special Rules Fearless, Fleet of foot,

Daemon: To all intends and purposes the Avatar of Cegorach is a Daemon. He benefits from a 4+ invulnerable save. Furthermore the Avatar of Cegorach always start the game in reserve, it can only enter the battlefield following the rules for summoning Greater Daemons found in the CSM codex, p. 61. When it becomes available from reserve it may possess the body of a Harlequin, Troupe Master, Shadowseer or Death Jester. Once the Avatar of Cegorach comes into play it is no longer part of the squad that the model whose body it possesses used to be a part of.

Harlequin Desciples: Any squad of Harlequins with a model within 6'' of the Avatar of Cegorach becomes fearless.

Veil of Laughter: Any unit that tries to target the Avatar of Cegorach with an attack, whether this takes place in the shooting phase or the assault phase, has to roll a d6 on the table given below:
[1]-[2]-[3] : The attack may be resolved as normal.
[4]-[5] : The attack fizzles; the unit is confused, unable to locate the Avatar or the trigger on their gun.
[6] : The attack may be resolved as normal, however the unit will target itself.


C'n C is very welcome.

Wow this thing is pretty harsh.
I do believe it may be a tad undercosted.

I know Greater Daemons with similar combat prowess are only 100 points but this thing adds:
- a pretty harsh shooting attack, which will pretty much always kill 2 regular models.
- I7 rather than 4, which, in combination with its combat skills, will ensure there's not much to strike back at it.
- Fleet of Foot. This thing will be on you in no time, although it'll often be a difficult choice for the eldar player whether to run or to shoot.
- a 3+ armour save (why this? it'll only be wearing a leotard anyway)

I'd probably put this around the 180/190 area.
Also, I'd add the standard clause that it doesn't take up a slot in the FOC.

I assume you're thinking of using the deciever?

I wanted to make a Laughing God model a while back and couldnt think of anything at the time, but the Deciever would be ideal

Seems cool but maybe you could add a little something to reflect his awesome powers of deception, like a psychic power or somewhat. I'm seeing a direct contrast between it and the Avatar of Khaine in the way the Nightbringer and Deciver have their contrast.

I don't think the monstrous creature rule fits for the avatar of the laughing god.

I think a power allowing you to misdirect an opponents units into shooting or assaulting each other would be interesting, but over powered. He is the god of trickery after all.

But If you cut the toughness down and add eternal warrior I think it would make him more interesting.

Right now I see too much of a link between him and the avatar of khaine. The war god juxtaposed with the laughing god, they just need more diverse rule sets.

@TiB: So, up the cost? Done. The 3+ save is there because Khaine has it and I basically just fiddled around with his stats. I could reverse he saves, make it 4+ and 3+inv.

@Ovion: No, I actually want to use Nightbringer, much more gracefull - what I imagine Cegorach to be.

@Oriallis: Good idea, I'll give it a think.

@orz192: Why woulld Monsterous Creature not work? It's a big-ass model, like Khaine, a Wraithlord and the C'tan. On top of that, it's a god - eventhough it is a laughing god. Gods should, IMHO, be very much dehumanized or monsterous.

I'll try to incorporate your other suggestions. (:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, edited and changed:
-raised the cost
-added the FoC clause
-lowered armour save to 4+ and 4+ inv.
-removed furious charge
-added veil of laughter

heh - I thought the Deciever was the more graceful and lithe looking one xD Plus the big grin the deciever has fits.

Maybe we should each convert up a Laughing God model and see how each turns out :p

Ovion wrote:heh - I thought the Deciever was the more graceful and lithe looking one xD Plus the big grin the deciever has fits.

Maybe we should each convert up a Laughing God model and see how each turns out :p

I'll hold you to that, sounds like a really fun and friendly competition! Though, I have to say that it'll probably be December at the earliest that I'll be able to get the required parts.

bit earlier at end of sep / oct for me but yeah sounds like a plan

Meanwhile, any comments on the rules as proposed?

Wow, that's annoying

If you have a 4++ save, why bother adding the 4+? Yeah it helps against psycannons and fringe stuff like that but it'd look cleaner without it.

For the Veil of Laughter I'd reverse the numbers. Because the opponent rolls the dice and it's more logical to have the 1 be bad and the 6 be good for him. It's a psychological thing.
Also don't you think it might be a bit more fair to make the attacks hit half the time instead of 1/3? so:
1: unit hits itself
2-3: misses
4+: attack hits

Can't believe I thought of the save problem myself...

I'll incorporate your suggestions, but I'll keep the attack hits at number 1 - we're talking about the trickster god afterall.

Well,GK Assassins have a 4+ and a 4++.And a 6+ FNP

It would be hilaroius if this Avatar was buffed with fortune. T6 and a re-rollable 4++ on top of a better than 4++ save. What Im trying to say is that the Veil of Laughter while fluffy is somewhat overpowered. Maybe reslove the attacks on 1-4?

I think you should add a new rule -

Troll: The Avatar of Cegorach is a Troll and will stop at nothing to infuriate his enemies and suck every bit of enjoyment out of the moment, Because of this, all enemies infantry units outside transports have the Rage USR but re-roll hits against the Avatar as well as +1 to their strength against him, but in combat against these units the Avatar has a 2++ save and I10.

Funny,but immature.

Deadshot wrote:Funny,but immature.

We play with little plastic men, sometimes forgoing a meal for painting and modelling supplies or models themselves, spend hours playing a game, and spend tremendous amounts of time on the hobby as a whole, its not childish, but i wouldn't exactly call it mature

To be on a more serious note, i think he's to under costed, i would pump him to the Avatars price, if not higher.

tedurur wrote:It would be hilaroius if this Avatar was buffed with fortune. T6 and a re-rollable 4++ on top of a better than 4++ save. What Im trying to say is that the Veil of Laughter while fluffy is somewhat overpowered. Maybe reslove the attacks on 1-4?

When the Avatar of Khaine is fortuned he has a similar save (4+ inv) or an even better save (3+). The Veil of Laughter is not a save, so it can't be rerolled with fortune.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:To be on a more serious note, i think he's to under costed, i would pump him to the Avatars price, if not higher.

The Avatar costs less, if I'm not mistaken it's a 155 points.

Exactly, Veil of Laughter is technically not a save and that makes it "somewhat" broken. As it is the Avatar of Cegorach is a MC with T6 and 4W that has the equivalent of a "save 3 out of every 4 wounds and then 1 out of 6 times you will attack yourself"
With fortune that save turns into a "save 7 out of 8 wounds...."So with fortune the opponent would do more damage to himself than he would to the Avatar on average

Mathhammer time!

squad of marines rapid firing on avatar

marines have 20 shots

3,3 shots on marines through veil
10 shots on avatar through veil

1,1 hit on marines
6,6 hits on avatar

0,55 to wound on marines
1,1 to wound on avatar

0,275 wounds on marines
0,55 wounds on avatar
0,275 wounds on avatar with fortune

a Stormlord with all guns blazing away at the Avatar

30 Vulcan Mega-Bolter shots
9 TL Heavy Bolter shots
2 Lascannon shots

15 Vulcan Mega-Bolter shots through veil
4,5 TL Heavy Bolter shots through veil
1 Lascannon shot through veil

7,5 Vulcan Mega-Bolter hits
3,38 TL Heavy Bolter hits
0,5 Lascannon hits

3,75 Vulcan Mega-Bolter to wound
1,12 TL Heavy Bolter to wound
0,42 Lascannon to wound

2,65 wounds on avatar
1,33 wounds on avatar with fortune

squad of 10 TH/SS Terminators assaulting avatar

Avatar has I7, 4 attacks
Termies have I1, 30 attacks

Avatar strikes first:
4 attacks
2,66 hits
2,22 to wound
0,74 dead terminators (it doesn't say so in the description, but I would think the Shadow Point ignores armour)

Terminators strike:
30 attacks

5 attacks on terminators through veil
15 attacks on avatar through veil

2,5 hits on terminators
7,5 hits on avatar

2,1 to wound on terminators
6,25 wounds on avatar

1 dead terminator
3,1 wounds on avatar
1,55 wounds on avatar with fortune
terminators lose combat and take 0,19 fearless wounds


Your avatar is just dead 'ard . I don't necessarily believe it's too much so though, especially with those greater daemon summoning rules, which are a P in the A.
It's just that the Veil ability doesn't really feel trickery to me, just that he's difficult to hurt. Maybe look at the necron Deceiver. He has some trickery abilities that would fit here nicely (especially the deployment rearranging bit, which would be really handy for and in style with the eldar)

If you want Trickery abilities,look at the Deciever and the Trickster.

Man, I've always disliked math...

I've looked at the Deveiver, "Misdirect" seems to fit but I don't want to just copy it. I'll sleep on it for a bit.

This has prompted me to make my own Cegorach (intended to before but procrastinated lots.)

Mine so far


Just need to actually right out the rules in my head then start my own thread for my units to be reviewed in xD

sounds good but i think he is just a little bit over the top

TiB wrote:Mathhammer time!

squad of marines rapid firing on avatar

marines have 20 shots

3,3 shots on marines through veil
10 shots on avatar through veil

1,1 hit on marines
6,6 hits on avatar

0,55 to wound on marines
1,1 to wound on avatar

0,275 wounds on marines
0,55 wounds on avatar
0,275 wounds on avatar with fortune

What about the Avatar of Khaine with fortune here?

20 Shots, 13.34 hits, 2.22778 wounds, 0.74 unsaved, 0.247 unsaved with Fortune.

That would make the AoC more vulnerable RF bolters than the AoK, even with the Veil, although only marginally since they both round to 0.

Then the Terminators:
AoK attacks first with 4 attacks, 2.668 hits, 2.222444 wounds, 0.74 dead, rounding to 1.
9 Terminators striking back (assuming they charged) with 27 attacks, 8.991 hits, 7.4895 wounds, 3.7 unsaved, 1.85 unsaved with Fortune, rounding to 2 (like the AoC's).

So the AoC is only marginally more survivable in combat than the AoK.

I would do the Stormlord against the AoK too, but I don't know the stats of the VMB, however, unless the VMB ignores armour, I think the AoK might come out as marginally more survivable; either way, the AoC isn't nearly as overpowered as it's being made out to be when compared to an Avatar of Khaine that garners no complaints, and has a better statline bar 1 less BS and 1 less I.

The most simple answer for anyone facing him would be to take out the T3 Fortuneseer that is sitting 6" away from it. After that he's no harder to kill than an Avatar of Khaine without an armour save; he's also not an Eternal Warrior, so hit him with stuff that causes instant death.

If you want, make the Veil require a psychic test and have it count as a psychic power to give it a chance of failing.

Vulcan Mega Bolter

Range-60
Str 6
AP 3
Heavy 15,primary weapon.


The stormlord has a rule allowing it to fire it twice if it doesn't move,IIRC.

Avatar 720: yeah, hadn't looked at the AoK. Never really realised that thing was so hard. At least that avatar is slow

And I didn't do the math to prove a point or anything. Was just curious just how tough that veil rule made him.

Main thing I found though, as I already stated, it's not trickstery. In practice it's just another 4+ save.

So, an update. I've been looking for some trickery abilities and I found the Clone Field in the DE dex, which seemed to fit in nicely.

I think he's a bit overpriced actually, compared to the actual Avatar of Khaine.

Here's my new proposition:

The Avatar of Cegorach - 200 - HQ (doesn't use a slot in the FoC

WS 8 BS 6 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 7 A 4 Ld 10 Sv -

Individual: An army can only include only one Avatar of Cegorach.

Unit Type: Monsterous Creature

Wargear:
Fhaisorr'ko - The Shadow Point: The Shadow Point is a power weapon that is made in part out of Warp energy, it may take the form of an elegant staff, a gracefull sword, or a set of vicious twin daggers. It may also be used as a ranged weapon, in which case it has the following profile:

Range: 18'' S: 6 AP: 1 Assault 2


Special Rules Fearless, Fleet of foot,

Daemon: To all intends and purposes the Avatar of Cegorach is a Daemon. He benefits from a 4+ invulnerable save. Furthermore the Avatar of Cegorach always start the game in reserve, it can only enter the battlefield following the rules for summoning Greater Daemons found in the CSM codex, p. 61. When it becomes available from reserve it may possess the body of a Harlequin, Troupe Master, Shadowseer or Death Jester. Once the Avatar of Cegorach comes into play it is no longer part of the squad that the model whose body it possesses used to be a part of.

Harlequin Desciples: Any squad of Harlequins with a model within 6'' of the Avatar of Cegorach becomes fearless.

Veil of Laughter: When locked into combat the Avatar of the Laughing God dances around his opponents and envelops them within the Veil of Laughter. Such is its speed and grace that, to the naked eye, in this dance of death the Avatar is in several places at once. A constant stream of frivolous laughter engulfs the ears of its enemies, until there is no sound left for them to hear but the whirlpool of laughter that surrounds them. At the beginning of any assault phase in which the Avatar of Cegorach is locked in close combat roll a d6. The result is the number of hits in that round of assault that it may completely nullify. The player controlling the Avatar of Cegorach may choose which attacks are nullified, however once the roll to wound is made there is no going back.

Cool idea but remove the 'Veil of Laughter' rule

Any particular reason why? 'Cause that would give me something to work with.