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I'm in the middle of a PhD in Genetics, and frankly I hate it. I seem to be getting nowhere. Experiments constantly fail and I'm becoming extremely frustrated. Infact I don't even think I'm a *good* scientist. My last job in a lab wasn't exactly the highlight of my life (hated it too). I have a 2.1 honours BSc. But I don't know what else to do.

I thought about secondary teaching but the thought of attempting to teach kids who don't care would frustrate me.

I cannot program so computer based things seem to be out.

I've even *looked* at the dreaded geedub - but the salary isn't great and the locations are not suitable.

I don't feel as if I'm particularly great at anything. I'm merely 'pretty ok' at most things with the exception of music and carpentry.

I also have depression which doesn't help. It's being managed but I know it's there, niggling away.

Anyone have anythoughts?

The only thought I have is that you have already invested significant time, effort, energy and money into your education and to jack it all in now, whether you hate it or not, would be foolish IMO. I think you would be better served with the PhD than without it - even if you choose not to follow that career path; many companies will hire on the basis of that PhD alone, regardless of what it is in.

From experience the depression wont help but you may just be going through a low patch.If your experiments are failing and frustration is kicking in maybe you need to look at exactly where you are going wrong in the experiment and try to change it.With a 2.1 honours bsc you are obviously capapable,its the big D chewing at your head (trust me its where im at right now).If it persists speak to your GP who may have to look at your meds.I hope you feel better and if you get low and fancy talking to a stranger with a lot of depression xp then pm me ok.

I am 9 months in (started in Jan) I'm still trying to get what is on paper a simple experiments to work.

I'm wishing I did philosophy or medicine as my undergraduate instead.

Anyway I'm going to go home and cry for a while.

Only nine months in?

You have a long, long way to go yet.

'Attaboy Corpse! That'll cheer him up!

Phototoxin, have you given any thought as to why you chose Genetics in the first place? There must be a liking for the subject there, otherwise you never would have chosen to do a PhD in it....

As for the experiments, well, maybe your just better at Theory than actual physical experiments?

Phototoxin wrote:I'm in the middle of a PhD in Genetics, and frankly I hate it. I seem to be getting nowhere. Experiments constantly fail and I'm becoming extremely frustrated. Infact I don't even think I'm a *good* scientist. My last job in a lab wasn't exactly the highlight of my life (hated it too). I have a 2.1 honours BSc. But I don't know what else to do.

I thought about secondary teaching but the thought of attempting to teach kids who don't care would frustrate me.

I cannot program so computer based things seem to be out.

I've even *looked* at the dreaded geedub - but the salary isn't great and the locations are not suitable.

I don't feel as if I'm particularly great at anything. I'm merely 'pretty ok' at most things with the exception of music and carpentry.

I also have depression which doesn't help. It's being managed but I know it's there, niggling away.

Anyone have anythoughts?

You should do something you genuinely enjoy, you know, I'm a bigot with no time for Islam so I joined the Marines to shoot people. I was overjoyed to realise my dream and invade several places.

Why not be a priest, I think you would really love that job.

Get yourself off to seminary, but forget about all that Science mumbo jumbo.

I'm married and unless I become an anglican minister I'm out of luck!

I'm a type 1 diabetic. It sucks epic jokearo bawls quite mildly. The PhD is about pre-disposing mutations and how they essentially set up the situation whereby the body decides to attack itself. However I feel as if someone who actually had an undergrad in genetics would have been better off doing it rather than me who knows relatively feth all about it.

You said you like carpentry why not go into trades?

Cheesecat wrote:You said you like carpentry why not go into trades?

For example, I hear that they're looking for a new Jesus. Try that.

Albatross wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:You said you like carpentry why not go into trades?

For example, I hear that they're looking for a new Jesus. Try that.

I don't see the connection.

Phototoxin wrote:I am 9 months in (started in Jan) I'm still trying to get what is on paper a simple experiments to work.

If you're stressing at 9 months then one of two things is likely true:

1: You need to adapt to the lifestyle.

2: This isn't for you.

Doctoral study is not for everyone. It isn't practical, and requires a commitment to the topic. You need passion to get through it, and even then it isn't enough most of the time.

Phototoxin wrote:
I'm wishing I did philosophy or medicine as my undergraduate instead.

I can tell you from experience in philosophy, and some knowledge of you via your posting, that you would have hated philosophy.

Isn't part of the whole scientific process failed experiments?

Ahtman wrote:Isn't part of the whole scientific process failed experiments?

Sadly you don't get paid for them.

Indeed... it's bad. I think its the total lack of routine as everything seems to be ad hoc.

Phototoxin wrote:Indeed... it's bad. I think its the total lack of routine as everything seems to be ad hoc.

For certain people that can be extremely difficult, given most people's tendency to look for routine it can be quite hard to bear.

Well I am not privy to the details of how your preform your work might I suggest seeing if you could talk to who ever is in charge (your prof. or lab director etc.) about maybe finding something a bit more structured.

And also sometimes you just end up having a really bad run and only focus on the failures, try to ignore them and instead look what what was done right and then expand on that.

Hey there, fellow scientist! Have my MS in biotechnology, and worked at Qiagen and for years before getting into the regulations side. Nearly killed myself (literally, but not on purpose I assure you) working 2 jobs and earning my BS degree. But I made it.

Dude, yes, the hours and stress are all BS. I'll PM you. We should talk.

Just having a low patch doesn't mean you should give up. Admitting its rough is the first step to analyzing for the cause and then eliminating it!

Phototoxin wrote:I'm in the middle of a PhD in Genetics, and frankly I hate it. I seem to be getting nowhere. Experiments constantly fail and I'm becoming extremely frustrated. Infact I don't even think I'm a *good* scientist. My last job in a lab wasn't exactly the highlight of my life (hated it too). I have a 2.1 honours BSc. But I don't know what else to do.

If you're willing to stick it out through your PhD and another three years of law school, I can almost guarantee that you will be able to pick up a job earning at least $100k/year as a Patent Attorney. Probably significantly more.

Or you could just become a Patent Agent if you're willing to settle for the mid-$70's (starting)

biccat wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I'm in the middle of a PhD in Genetics, and frankly I hate it. I seem to be getting nowhere. Experiments constantly fail and I'm becoming extremely frustrated. Infact I don't even think I'm a *good* scientist. My last job in a lab wasn't exactly the highlight of my life (hated it too). I have a 2.1 honours BSc. But I don't know what else to do.

If you're willing to stick it out through your PhD and another three years of law school, I can almost guarantee that you will be able to pick up a job earning at least $100k/year as a Patent Attorney. Probably significantly more.

Or you could just become a Patent Agent if you're willing to settle for the mid-$70's (starting)

I earn twice that as a man-whore. Its not for everyone though, you can only command the big fee's if you have a cock like an Italian waiters pepper pot.

Phototoxin wrote:I'm in the middle of a PhD in Genetics, and frankly I hate it. I seem to be getting nowhere. Experiments constantly fail and I'm becoming extremely frustrated. Infact I don't even think I'm a *good* scientist. My last job in a lab wasn't exactly the highlight of my life (hated it too). I have a 2.1 honours BSc. But I don't know what else to do.

I thought about secondary teaching but the thought of attempting to teach kids who don't care would frustrate me.

I cannot program so computer based things seem to be out.

I've even *looked* at the dreaded geedub - but the salary isn't great and the locations are not suitable.

I don't feel as if I'm particularly great at anything. I'm merely 'pretty ok' at most things with the exception of music and carpentry.

I also have depression which doesn't help. It's being managed but I know it's there, niggling away.

Anyone have anythoughts?

Have you thought about the exciting and lucrative career of Mad Scientist (TM)? Do you have the desire to dominate the Earth? Do you like machiavellian schemes and R&D without all that "oversight" and "morals" and "dear god man doctor are you insane!" nonsense? Do you hold grudges? Do you cackle a lot? If so then the exciting world of Mad Scientist awaits!

Have you thought about being a carpenter?

mattyrm wrote:..........................
I earn twice that as a man-whore. Its not for everyone though, you can only command the big fee's if you have a cock like an Italian waiters pepper pot.

So it's firmly grasped by Italian chaps and spits out black dust you say....hmmmm........

You should see a Doctor or Phototoxin I hear he has a grasp of the biological.

There you go mate I have found you a new job already.

Albatross wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:You said you like carpentry why not go into trades?

For example, I hear that they're looking for a new Jesus. Try that.

Nah, the benefits package is way overblown. Plus its high profile. The least little thing and you get nailed for it.

I lasted 2 years in an epidemiology phd before I quit. In my case, I had a fairly unreasonable supervisor and was probably too immature to really deal with the huge level of responsibilty I had without a supportive mentor (I was 21 when I started, and I think a couple of years to grow up would have been a good idea, and would have helped me in dealing with it all).

I actually suffered a breakdown during my PhD that it took me a couple of years to recover from, and I don't recommend it. It has left me a bit wiser and more capable of empathy, but it was a pretty horrendous experience to live through.

Lab genetics is particularly soul destroying, and there's definitely the feeling that you are basically a pippette arm with a brain and simply a source of cheap labour for your boss. Academia is full of psychopaths who are difficult to deal with and cynics who will errode your will to work.

This is probably true in a lot of cases. If you're in a situation like that, and aren't getting support, the next couple of years are going to be difficult. Most PhD candidates hit "the wall" in year 2. After the initial orientation and getting used to the literature, you've got a period where nothing works, and you're sort of casting around for ideas (that's pretty much year 1 unless you're lucky, in lab science). Then year 2 you start to get a better idea and structure things and collect useful data. Towards the end of year 2 is generally an artificially created crunch time where you have to conduct a LOT of experiments in a short time to make up for the dithering in year 1, then in year 3 you are consolidating that, ironing out kinks, and so on. You'll probably be pressured to publish at every step, too. Year 4 is often write up.
Is that what you're experiencing? Because that is the pattern every lab scientist I know (and I know a lot) has gone through in their PhD.

Maybe this PhD isn't for you, but that doesn't really mean a lot. No two PhDs are THAT alike, to be honest. A lot depends on supervisor, the type of work you're doing and the amount of "ownership" you have of your work. I think a lot of science research is pretty mechanical, and you don't get a lot of real control. It can seem like you're just a cog in a big machine.
However, the successful candidates I have seen have shared the following traits:
-Picking an achievable topic and or an area that does not require skills they do not posses (eg. large scale logistical skills were what I lacked, as I was conducting a nationwide epidemilogical survey out of the back of a nissan micra).
-A strong personal work ethic and a robust ability to accept their own errors and move on from them. (If you spend a lot of time feeling crap because you're not working, you'll end up working even less).
-Maturity and experience. (Overwhelmingly, the PhD candidates who did a masters first do better. They are just more confident, better at managing themselves and their supervisors. One friend of mine tanked his first genetics phd, took some time doing a masters in forensic genetics while working in Game, and is now powering through a PhD in kidney issues in diabetics in no time at all, with very little stress.)
-A supportive superivsor and a good environment to work in. (Some labs are filled with neurotic insecure lunatics who are poison to work with. Others have more balanced populations. Some supervisors are egomaniacal psychopaths who use students as punching bags. Others are supportive and enthusiastic mentors. It's really important to scope out a supervisor beforehand.)
-Pragmatism. (In a science PhD this is sort of the dirty little secret. You don't try and do the best science you can, as often that's so much work that you will break under the stress. You make compromises and accept that you're going to do the best science you can with the resources you have, and that you can't make up for lack of resources with superhuman effort. Or at least, most people can't. YMMV with this one, but for "normal" people doing PhDs I do think it's a useful survival trait.)

I will happily talk to you about this via PM, or if you think a face to face meeting would help I wouldn't mind that either. Let me know and please don't feel like you can't ask. After what I went through I'd much prefer to help a fellow sufferer than leave them to their fate.

^this guy is making sense.

Academia is basically indentured servitude. Unless you love it, don't bother. You'll work for nothing for years before you get your PhD, when you're salary goes from low to mid "peanuts."

A phD program isn't something you just because you started it.

Da Boss has it down. Read that and learn it (as it were).

On an empathetic note, i suffered from depression in my first year of Uni which eventually caused me to have to redo the second half of my first year. It worked out for the best in the end (mostly), but at the time it is a pain in the bloody a$$!! The MOST important thing is support. Without a doubt, it is the support of friends/family and tutors/fellow students that carried me through my problems.It is absolutely imperative that you find out what support is available (which it pretty much sounds like you have done already tbh, which is good), and get in contact. Depending on the University you are at, the level of support does vary, but most of them are very good and have oodles of experience dealing with similar issues.

How many of your frineds have stayed on to do a PhD if you dont mind me asking? Or have you moved Uni to do it? I only ask because i know how difficult my last year (this one just gone, so its still fresh) was when the majority of my friends had left (ie the ones from my first first year). It left me with a vast feeling of loss when i realised they wouldnt be there that tbh i completely, epically failed to deal with and just ignored and carried on with my work. It does suck, and there isnt much you can do about it, but i was mostly saved by having good friends remaining who were doing longer courses, and by the new friends i had made in my year. They all helped A LOT. I was lucky, hopefully you are too.

How is you Tutor/Mentor? Mine in First Year (first first year) was awful, even going so far as to when i told him about my depression, saying 'i dont want to hear about it, i dont want to talk about it with you, its not my problem, go talk to someone else i dont care...'...which was nice. Needless to say, i changed my Tutor for the next year (my second first year, dman this gets confusing). Its really easy to do and AFAIK caused no hard feelings. Just go see someone at your Union and they can deal with all of it for you.

How is you demonstrator (teacher who you are doing the PhD for)? They can, as Da Boss said before, make or break a PhD for some people. If you and they dont gel, then maybe a different PhD is the way forward? Or at the very least, see if there is someone else you can liase with so you dont have to deal with them quite so much. All irrelevant if they are nice of course, that does happen too

On the Science side of things (since i did Chemistry), The practicals often wont work. Its widely known and not particularly well kept secret. Even experiments straight from a book or some other source that they swear works, will either do nothing, or blow up in your face and leave you feeling very frustrated. I assume you are doing lots of research on your subject? My only advice here is to utilise everything your Uni has to offer. I was lucky, Leicester has a HUGE, kickass library that was really helpful for me, as well as access to a whole load of web-based databases and it all really helped, especially for giving me different ways of doing particular experiments. This might be worth a look at if your experiments arent working.

Also, always remmeber that something not working can often be as good in a scientific write up as something working. So long as you know/can work out why of course, then that gives you scope for 'improvements' and 'future work' (maybe next year), which Science (Chemistry at least) LOVES. As an example, my friend had to make his starting chemicals for his dissertation (because the lecturer was too lazy to order them for him), and ended up failing for a good month or so. He was perfectly following the instructions given and it just didnt work. at. all. He then looked up a different way of doing it, did it first time and got huge credit for it.

Anyway, hope some of this monster post helps (apologies for that btw), and for any spelling mistakes (im typing at work, trying to hide it from my colleagues ). Good luck, and if you have a problem, dont keep quiet about it.

Hope you make it out of your funk.

as I was conducting a nationwide epidemilogical survey out of the back of a nissan micra

I smell a quirky indie romcom in this.

Polonius wrote:Academia is basically indentured servitude. Unless you love it, don't bother. You'll work for nothing for years before you get your PhD, when you're salary goes from low to mid "peanuts."

A phD program isn't something you just because you started it.

Exactly.


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Da Boss wrote:
I will happily talk to you about this via PM, or if you think a face to face meeting would help I wouldn't mind that either. Let me know and please don't feel like you can't ask. After what I went through I'd much prefer to help a fellow sufferer than leave them to their fate.

I'll second this, minus the face to face (Churbana is a long way from merry old England). I'm not a hard science guy, but I'm doing a similar grind.

All I can really say is maybe you need to think about whether or not this is the field you want to work in.. phd programs require a lot of dedication, and if you're already at the point where you're unsure about it, just take a break if you can.

Ahtman wrote:

as I was conducting a nationwide epidemilogical survey out of the back of a nissan micra

I smell a quirky indie romcom in this.

.
Well, the first time I tried to get a faecal sample from a sheep, I, err, poked the other hole.

Didn't even buy her a drink first.