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Just out of pure curiosity, what do you consider to be the worst (cheesiest) thing someone can bring to a table? I'll add other suggestions people have.

To clarify, the Grave Guard deathstar is the classic combo with regeneration banner and a supporting Vampire Lord with Crown of Commandment.

I went with Teclis, but only if in a unit with the Banner of the World Dragon (err the one that negates magic).

As for the other ones, with a 15 point Flaming Attacks banner you can jack them up, so I do not think them all that troublesome. Even certain magic lores have missle spells that count as flaming. I think outside lore of fire, Metal and Light have spells that count as fire and then other lores have spells to deal out the hurt based on characteristic tests.

As for the Grave-Star + Plus Helm of Commandment, if you drop the regen banner then add those points to the model count of the GG unit you can achieve nearly the same results. However if you get Grave guard with regen, hitting on 2's wounding on 2's, rerolls to hit and the Lore of Light combo to strike at I10, that will hurt! A lot of peices need to fall into place, but if they do its a lot of dmg.

Just my two coppers though, hah.

- Strig

Double HPA

Double HPAs?

try triple HPAs that showed up at Ard Boyz this year.

Double HPA is annoying, 3 is terrifying.

Yep, I had the triple HPA pulled on me. In a casual game. I told him politely where he could shove it and just what I thought of his sportsmanship.

Is Ard Boyz >2000pts then?

I went with Teclis, but he can be taken down

Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Don't forget that the grave guard combo uses the +1 to hit banner making them hit on 2's and wound on 2's.

Teclis is still worse, as all the others can be dealt with in some manner, whereas a hiding mage beatstick can be difficult to remove.

Acardia wrote:Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Do you allow a tower to be more than 3 levels then? I know there is debate about it, but the wording of the item says place a "watch tower building (or scratch-built structure of a similar size)." The watch tower building from GW is only 3 levels, so only 15 shots a turn. I think people severely abuse and read the rules for the folding tower way to loosely.

Teclis isn't the worst. I would say double/triple HPA is much worse.
I play HE and decided not to take Teclis beacuse he annoys people, but when me and my freind thought about it we came up with loads of different ways to get rid of him.

I'm going with the grave guard. The monsters are easy enough with a glaive of putrefaction lord with knights and then a unit of halbred warriors with the flame banner. Running around and well teclis likes to melt to curse of the leper.

The Grave Guard 'deathstar' is a lot more expensive than the other three, both in absolute terms and for what it does.

Ive just recently started Warhammer Fantasy, and picked up the Skavens i really love those damn Rat men<3. But i know next to nothing about the different tactic and such. So... Is the HPA really that insane? Well sure it's a damn strong unit with regan abilities and cababilities. But is double or even triple really that cheesy?

I have fallen a bit in love with the unit myself so would be nice to know how cheesy it is.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

Acardia wrote:Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Do you allow a tower to be more than 3 levels then? I know there is debate about it, but the wording of the item says place a "watch tower building (or scratch-built structure of a similar size)." The watch tower building from GW is only 3 levels, so only 15 shots a turn. I think people severely abuse and read the rules for the folding tower way to loosely.

No but it wins by point denial. He had it at 3 levels, so 15 people could shoot. still like 33 shots a turn. Even assaulting the tower, I wouldn't be able to kill that unit. With out dwellers or some other way to snipe the characters out. I would only of dropped the two rbt.

60 Marauders w/ Great Weapons.

3 HPA as been said before thats just gross.

Cant the screaming bell destroy buildings on a certain roll or does that not work?

The 120 DE are scary but 3 hpa's take the cake.

Coolyo294 wrote:60 Marauders w/ Great Weapons.

Nah, 60 marauders with flails and Mark of Khorne.

*shudder*

Cerebrium wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:60 Marauders w/ Great Weapons.

Nah, 60 marauders with flails and Mark of Khorne.

*shudder*

But all the back ranks wouldn't get their extra attacks from the Mark.

RaptorsTallon wrote:Teclis isn't the worst. I would say double/triple HPA is much worse.
I play HE and decided not to take Teclis beacuse he annoys people, but when me and my freind thought about it we came up with loads of different ways to get rid of him.

The problem with Teclis is that he can be hidden in a PG unit really easily. there are certain items that just screw him over, but only a couple of armies have those items and those armies also tend to be ones that don't have as much to fear from him in the first place. Lizardmen have their own uber Wizards and Dark Elves arn't as vulnerable to super spells.

HEs just have too many ways to generate additional Power and Dispel dice combined with all their silly bonuses to cast. Some HE builds will be rocking 12 power dice nearly all the time if the roll for Winds is anything above a 6. even worse with DD, HE can expect to easily have twice as many DD as their opponent has PD.

In some ways, its better now that the HEs can't get 20+ power dice each turn, but, on the other hand, the power of the Uber spells in the BRB has totally compensated for this. Teclis now just needs to toss 6 dice at Pit of Shades, Dwellers, or Purple Sun and there goes the neighborhood. and he is basically asured of an Irrisistable force due to his rules and he can easily meet the casting value with his bonus to cast.


Hellpits can at least be countered by the Banner of Flame which EVERYONE can get.

At the club my double hydra 1500 pt list was voted the cheesiest... In fact I was the only one to receive votes ><;. I'd like to add chosen star to the list, as so far they are pretty much the only thing that my hydra's don't munch on.

Hydras are broken mostly because of the changes to Breath Weapons and the addition of Thunderstomp. before they were just a fair priced monster. now they are woefully undecosted.

HPAs only gained Tstomp with 8th. everything else is 'supposedly' included in its cost.

He didnt mention what points limit so im sure thats why people have different views.

Also 50 mok fc gw marauders with I10 and WS10 makes a bloodthirster a very sad and dead daemon.
He may go first but they still out rank him and hit on 3s

Seems a rather odd list without Kairos, flamers, the chosenstar warshrines combo... I don't know, it's hard to say what's the most effective combo out there in a list like this.

Grey Templar wrote:before they were just a fair priced monster.

RiTides wrote:Seems a rather odd list without Kairos, flamers, the chosenstar warshrines combo...

Word RT, there are worse things out there, or at least similarly horrific. From the four choices here, my vote solidly goes to double hydras, what a ridiculously cheap monster in an army that doesn't need the help. Teclis is old news and pretty gimp when it comes down to punching him in the face; double hellpits is (IMO) a really gross move from a sports perspective and a worse move in casual games, but I think in competitive settings they don't return like you'd expect (i.e. if the other guy has the tools to deal with 1 - and he better! - then he can often deal with 2, costing you 470 points and your crutch); and the gravestar is brutal but expensive and frankly what else do VC players have going for them? Besides a lack of imagination? (I jest vampers! It's just sad that your book only manifests as ghouls + gravestar at this point. HawaiiMatt, you don't count )

Honestly I think 2x 6 flamers or 2x 3 salamanders are both at least on par with these guys. Max camo skinks are pretty broken as well.

- Salvage

Acardia wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

Acardia wrote:Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Do you allow a tower to be more than 3 levels then? I know there is debate about it, but the wording of the item says place a "watch tower building (or scratch-built structure of a similar size)." The watch tower building from GW is only 3 levels, so only 15 shots a turn. I think people severely abuse and read the rules for the folding tower way to loosely.

No but it wins by point denial. He had it at 3 levels, so 15 people could shoot. still like 33 shots a turn. Even assaulting the tower, I wouldn't be able to kill that unit. With out dwellers or some other way to snipe the characters out. I would only of dropped the two rbt.

good on him for only using 3 levels. But that's definitely a tough nut to crack. The points denial in that is crazy. Good thing you had dwellers.

How many points is 2 Bolt Throwers?

if its 100 points or more, just kill them and stay away from the building.

Grey Templar wrote:How many points is 2 Bolt Throwers?

if its 100 points or more, just kill them and stay away from the building.

Two bolt throwers for HE is 200 pts. I think it's the same for DE, although I don't have my DE book on me at the moment (and I'm not as familiar with it).

In a tournament you'd end up with a draw if you just killed the bolt throwers and didn't do anything about the tower. Which can sometimes be just as bad as a loss.

200 point victory is a draw in some tournaments?

I thought the main rules were 100 points is a victory.

Right, in the main rules if you score 100 more points than your opponent you win.

In most tournaments they have to figure out a way to separate people by more than just their wins and losses. So, they use battle points. They usually have a scale of some sort to determine how many battle points you receive by how big of a margin you have in your victory. So, if you massacre your opponent you would typically receive 20 BP and your opponent would receive 0 BP. If you got a major victory you would get something like 17 BP and the loser would get 3 BP. Minor victory would be like 14 or something and a draw would be like 10. Then there would be bonus BP for things like killing the general or having a unit of core troops in the enemy deployment zone, etc.

Here's the break down of how you win from one of the first round scenarios from 'ard boyz (in all of my local tournaments, a system similar to this is used).

MASSACRE
Defeat your opponent by 1500 victory points or more.
MAJOR VICTORY
Defeat your opponent by 800 – 1499 victory points.
MINOR VICTORY
Defeat you opponent by 200 – 799 Victory points.
DRAW
Defeat your opponent by 199 victory points or less.
BATTLEMODIFIERS
+1 point for killing your opponent’s cheapest unit.
+1 point for each of your opponent’s reserve
units you kill.
+1 point for massacring your opponent.

So, if this rule set were being used against the DE tower army, and the just killed the 2 RBT for 200 pts and he didn't lost any points, he'd get a minor victory. This would suck for him big time since he'd have almost no chance of getting a massacre or major victory which would then upset his positioning for the next match.

I've also seen it where it seems like guys try to lose just barely so they get a minor loss. That way they can be put against an opponent that's not so "good." Then they kick their butt and get a massacre and posture themselves for a match against someone in the lead. Then they massacre that guy, dropping him from one of the lead positions and potentially taking third or second and sometimes first, if the first place guy gets hammered.

It sucks.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I've also seen it where it seems like guys try to lose just barely so they get a minor loss. That way they can be put against an opponent that's not so "good." Then they kick their butt and get a massacre and posture themselves for a match against someone in the lead. Then they massacre that guy, dropping him from one of the lead positions and potentially taking third or second and sometimes first, if the first place guy gets hammered.

Apparently this is called "submarine-ing" ... And yes, definitely vomitous.

- Salvage