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I firmly believe that if GW would give Orks just 1 more point in one characteristic, they would be a much more competitive army. This +1 could be to BS, T, I, or go to a 5+ armor save.

The 6+ armor save has always bothered me because the codex states, "An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in a human head. [...] Orkoid physique is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment. An Ork feels next to no pain even from the most grievous of wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead" (4). That description sounds deserving of at least a 5+ armor save to me.

+1 Initiative would also be a good choice because it makes logical sense for Orks: they are bloodthirsty killing machines, so naturally they would be ready to spring into battle the moment the enemy is close enough to assault. Obviously this wouldn't affect PKs and such, so I don't see it as making the army too powerful.

I'm also of the opinion that Orks need more abilities that allow rerolls on 1s or misses. So many other armies have several ICs or weapons that allow rerolls, but all the Orks get are ammo runts, which seem absolutely useless to me. (I mean, you get to reroll ONE BS 2 shot per runt per game? How much good does that ever do??) I think ammo runts should cost at least 25 points and should be allowed to remain with a unit for the entire game (of course, they should only be attached to certain units like nobz, flash gitz, HQ, etc.--we don't need to be rerolling 30 misses from one mob of shoota boyz!)

Does anyone else agree that Orks need just a little something extra? I just don't hear many success stories about Ork armies (especially in tourneys), and as much fun as they are to play, I think GW has given them too many drawbacks.

The Ork's ability to withstand damage is represented by their Toughness 4. Bloodthirsty charges are represented by Furious Charge. And why do they really need to re-roll their 1's? No other army has abilities like that en-mass, so why should Orks get them?

Orks are already one of the most competitive armies out there, even at tournament level. The average boy costs 6 points, a cost which is very cheap for 3 attacks, toughness 4 and furious charge. The ballistic skill 2 is also representative of the fact that they cannot shoot for toffee and thus prefer close combat.

I really don't see what your angle is here.

realms1578 wrote:The 6+ armor save has always bothered me because the codex states, "An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in a human head. [...] Orkoid physique is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment. An Ork feels next to no pain even from the most grievous of wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead" (4). That description sounds deserving of at least a 5+ armor save to me.

That represents the Ork being T4.

realms1578 wrote:+1 Initiative would also be a good choice because it makes logical sense for Orks: they are bloodthirsty killing machines, so naturally they would be ready to spring into battle the moment the enemy is close enough to assault. Obviously this wouldn't affect PKs and such, so I don't see it as making the army too powerful.

The problem is that then you'd have to rebalance the entire army because it's THAT much better at assault-- many people discount how important initiative is in making an assault army..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crystal-Maze wrote:Orks are already one of the most competitive armies out there, even at tournament level. The average boy costs 6 points, a cost which is very cheap for 3 attacks, toughness 4 and furious charge. The ballistic skill 2 is also representative of the fact that they cannot shoot for toffee and thus prefer close combat.

I really don't see what your angle is here.

Actually Orks enjoy both shooting and assault. The ballistics skill 2 represents the fact that they don't BOTHER to aim, not that they can't.

Semantics, but I will concede that. Orks like shooting as much as the next psychopathic killer, but have very poor aim.

If orks had the same BS as guardsman...then ork armies would consist entirely of shoota boyz...because average 30 hits and 15 wounds a turn against space marines is just silly

Valkyrie wrote:And why do they really need to re-roll their 1's? No other army has abilities like that en-mass, so why should Orks get them?

I never said they should reroll all their 1s, just that the ammo runts should actually make rerolling worth anything at all. There are plenty of Space Marines and Tyranid units that allow various rerolls. I specifically said that ammo runts shouldn't be attached to units of boyz as well, so even if they were improved to make rerolling actually effective, you wouldn't be rerolling all day.

Maybe it's just that all the other armies have so many unique special rules that makes Orks seem so much less powerful to me, but how often do Orks really win against Space Marines? Granted I haven't played many games, but every time I check my stats in a fight they don't measure up to my opponent's, so I don't know if having so many more models really makes up for it.

One other question for Ork players: Why doesn't the reinforced ram upgrade the front armor of the vehicle it's attached to? (Or, why does it only increase the armor in death or glory attacks?) It doesn't really make sense to me that the armor value stays exactly the same, but now the vehicle can tank shock.

Orks actually fare quite well against space marines by doing what they do to everything else...swarming...yes there are only a few truly viable builds with them, but this is due to their codex being a little bit out of date

as to special rules...no one else has mob rule, universal furious charge, and the Waagh!. Those are all special to them. As for shooting orks do not need any means of boosting it, they, again, are good at it by swarming.

Orks work if you use them how GW envisioned them...huge swarms of Boyz of all types barreling down at the enemy

realms1578 wrote:
Maybe it's just that all the other armies have so many unique special rules that makes Orks seem so much less powerful to me, but how often do Orks really win against Space Marines? Granted I haven't played many games, but every time I check my stats in a fight they don't measure up to my opponent's, so I don't know if having so many more models really makes up for it.

'You needz da Nobz delivry Systum!' i.e an Ork Boy mob with attached Nob with Power Klaw, plus any other squad that can take them. Its a pretty fine equaliser for boyz, of course the boyz themselves can make a right good mess of Marines when lucks wth them anyways.

The only thing the orks need my young friend is left alone.
Even after all these years the ork codex is still one of the best out there, especially for new players.
Of course i can see the differences over the years and editions and i cant wait for the next one but,
It still stands up well in the tournaments, the fluffs ok, models luvly, after 20 years playn this game i still think,
Da orkes is da bestest.

I haven't lost a game to Space Marines in over 20 matches. Dark Eldar got me two or three times, Tyranids got me once. But in my circle, orks are just hard to beat.

I don't even use the builds suggested because I hate to use lists other people made. The bottomline being, your right, every other army looks amazing rules wise on paper. Space Marines look ridiculous. But if your spamming dice at your opponent, and getting PK's into CC that can't be targeted, your opponent has no specific enemy to take down and finds themselves screwed because unlike other armies Orks can easily live with changing gameplans in the middle or even last turn of a game, while most armies are depending on something whic an ork player can recognize and destroy.
However, agreeance on the Ram, do want to know why it doesn't up the front armor, but I would gather if it did it would cost more. SO I would say it's to represent how dangerous it is to DoG a spikey ram and you cant ank shock because the army is afraid of the spikes not because the armor is better.

My personal question to GM and all codex related things, why doesn't the Mega Blasta have Melta! This genuinely boggles me. Same points, everything as is with Melta, and it would make sense. No need to up the cost or anything. Just give it what it should have.
And give Dreds Furious charge and WAAAGH!!!

I don't know about initiative up or anything.. I could see an argument to take away furious charge and change it to fleet to up str to a static 4 as that annoys me that an ork boy who is supposed to be strong and tough is only str3 ... so my ork boy who has bee fighting against other orks in hand to hand his whoel lif eis just as strong as a guardsman when not on the charge >_<

but overall that is just nitpicking, I love our codex I'm looking forward to an update but many other armies need it more than we do ie tau necrons black templar dark angels and nids (really nids jus tneed an erratta where force weapons and Jotww don't instant remove thier monstrous creatures.. kinda chopped the knees on thier codex competitivly)

*add* forgot eldar.. they need a new dex as well

Melissia wrote:

realms1578 wrote:The 6+ armor save has always bothered me because the codex states, "An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in a human head. [...] Orkoid physique is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment. An Ork feels next to no pain even from the most grievous of wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead" (4). That description sounds deserving of at least a 5+ armor save to me.

That represents the Ork being T4.

realms1578 wrote:+1 Initiative would also be a good choice because it makes logical sense for Orks: they are bloodthirsty killing machines, so naturally they would be ready to spring into battle the moment the enemy is close enough to assault. Obviously this wouldn't affect PKs and such, so I don't see it as making the army too powerful.

The problem is that then you'd have to rebalance the entire army because it's THAT much better at assault-- many people discount how important initiative is in making an assault army..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crystal-Maze wrote:Orks are already one of the most competitive armies out there, even at tournament level. The average boy costs 6 points, a cost which is very cheap for 3 attacks, toughness 4 and furious charge. The ballistic skill 2 is also representative of the fact that they cannot shoot for toffee and thus prefer close combat.

I really don't see what your angle is here.

Actually Orks enjoy both shooting and assault. The ballistics skill 2 represents the fact that they don't BOTHER to aim, not that they can't.

All of the above is informally exalted. Orks already get increased initiative on the charge and TWO attacks base for only six points a model. That's a bargain even with a human statline. Toss in the other advantage of Furious Charge, plus T4 and you've got a hell of a deal. They're malicious, powerful and always itching to fight, but that doesn't preclude them from being dim-witted and clumsy. Their general oafishness probably accounts for their low saves too - an ork would be more likely to try to bash someone's head in with a shield than hold it in his face, and hiding in cover like a grot is far less fun than jumping up and down shouting 'Waaagh!!!'

The 6+ armor save has always bothered me because the codex states, "An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in a human head. [...] Orkoid physique is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment.

If you take everything in a codex like this, next you'll be saying that Marines should have a statline of 5, or that IG should be 2 points per model with free upgrades.

There is the Fluff, where everything is as it's supposed to be.
Then there is the game where everything is a bit more balanced (not that it is though).

G00fySmiley wrote:I don't know about initiative up or anything.. I could see an argument to take away furious charge and change it to fleet to up str to a static 4 as that annoys me that an ork boy who is supposed to be strong and tough is only str3 ... so my ork boy who has bee fighting against other orks in hand to hand his whoel lif eis just as strong as a guardsman when not on the charge >_<

but overall that is just nitpicking, I love our codex I'm looking forward to an update but many other armies need it more than we do ie tau necrons black templar dark angels and nids (really nids jus tneed an erratta where force weapons and Jotww don't instant remove thier monstrous creatures.. kinda chopped the knees on thier codex competitivly)

I just wanted to state that this post made me feel picky in regards to a lot of my recent posts, and from it I imagine you are probably a fun person to play the game with and I think you're right, the game is fun to play and no rules in the ork dex need changing right away we're still doing alright we can wait patiently. We're still kickin but.

Runna wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:I don't know about initiative up or anything.. I could see an argument to take away furious charge and change it to fleet to up str to a static 4 as that annoys me that an ork boy who is supposed to be strong and tough is only str3 ... so my ork boy who has bee fighting against other orks in hand to hand his whoel lif eis just as strong as a guardsman when not on the charge >_<

but overall that is just nitpicking, I love our codex I'm looking forward to an update but many other armies need it more than we do ie tau necrons black templar dark angels and nids (really nids jus tneed an erratta where force weapons and Jotww don't instant remove thier monstrous creatures.. kinda chopped the knees on thier codex competitivly)

I just wanted to state that this post made me feel picky in regards to a lot of my recent posts, and from it I imagine you are probably a fun person to play the game with and I think you're right, the game is fun to play and no rules in the ork dex need changing right away we're still doing alright we can wait patiently. We're still kickin but.

thanks I try to have fun hence playng the game.. some people tend to forget the play part of 40k .. at which point the treat it like a job. we're doign of as orks and even when we stop being competative and need a new dex I can't see it not being fun to roll with 2 SAG, and a ton of lootas jsut for volume for, or seeing the look on an opponents face as you plop down over 180 models at a 1500 point game.. even when they knock off 30+ per turn they see how much is left!

What about taking away an orks armour and just giving fnp, and increasing the cost to 7 ppm, cuz yes, the armour does nothing, but orks are the most resilient to damage race in the universe that are not genetically enhanced super warriors.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:All of the above is informally exalted. Orks already get increased initiative on the charge and TWO attacks base for only six points a model. That's a bargain even with a human statline. Toss in the other advantage of Furious Charge, plus T4 and you've got a hell of a deal. They're malicious, powerful and always itching to fight, but that doesn't preclude them from being dim-witted and clumsy. Their general oafishness probably accounts for their low saves too - an ork would be more likely to try to bash someone's head in with a shield than hold it in his face, and hiding in cover like a grot is far less fun than jumping up and down shouting 'Waaagh!!!'

Orks instinctively go for cover in a way that only imperial guard vets and space marines manage. Basic battlefield tactics and survival strategy is quite literally in their blood.

It's just that when they have a large enough mob, the combined gestalt psychic field makes them supremely confident, sometimes too much so, although it DOES work for them quite often.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:And why do they really need to re-roll their 1's? No other army has abilities like that en-mass, so why should Orks get them?

*cough* *cough*

Orks are just fine these threads are so common it's kinda annoying. Though the armor is a good point maybe make it an cheaper version of ard boyz.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:And why do they really need to re-roll their 1's? No other army has abilities like that en-mass, so why should Orks get them?

*cough* *cough*

Tyranids also have that as well, IIRC.

Orks have lots of little threads because they have neither the organised 'new codex' threads or the anonymity that 3000 imperial threads have.

Just saying, can anyone do anything about nob bikers? Please? My Crons are feeling even more f***ed than usual. Otherwise, the ork army is quite balanced, though some units need to be brought up to snuff (Mega-Nobz). Finally, the shokk attack gun must be MORE RANDOM AND MORE POWERFUL. I want to field a list consisting of 2 and lots of Killa Kanz/grot units.

I don't want/need any sweeping changes to orks.

However if we are wishlisting :

IThe only hange I would make would be to have basic boys with choppa/slugga drop to 5 points and keep shoota boyz at 6pts.

Bring on the Green tide...

DakkaDakka wrote:

I think the rules should be changed

The standard Boy is fine on a pure statistical level. What Orks need is better rebalancing of their Force Organization slot, more "utility" options aside from "KFF Mek...and that's it" (Weirdboy should be an Elite/Mob attachment, IMO. And the Mekboy should be able to take *two* Gadgits rather than "Forcefield or SAG." A few other options like Kustom Tellyportals, or Engine Supachargers [to speed up a particular vehicle] would open up more in-game options as well), and to make their support elements, if not more reliable, then at least somewhat less dodgy. Also, less "Do I take Kans/Wagons, or do I take Flash Gits" internal balance issues or "Do I take Tankbustas or Lootas."

Because running triplelootas/triple Rokkitbuggies with Wagonshoota/kan(non) support gets old after awhile as after a certain amount of time, the army just...plays the same.

The basic ork boy is 100% awsome sauce and needs nothing to change.



its some of the support that needs to change.

Flash Gits need to be a lot better at shooting and need to become Elites.

Lootas need to be Heavy Support.

Deff Dreds should gain the Waaagh rule and a slight points increase.

Mega armor should be an upgrade for regular nobs, ditch Mega Nobs as a seperate unit. Allowing full diversification of Mega nobs.


Other then that, the codex is VERY solid.

The proposed change for moving Lootas to Heavy Support would basically render the Kan Wall unplayable in a competitive environment (and it's arguably at a disdvantage to begin with anyway), unless additonal Force Organization modifiers were to take place.