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I realised the other day that a Flames of War style STAR WARS Wargame would be brilliant. Yet, no one has really grabbed this mantle, Wizards of the Coast and the previous license holders have tried but they have never really had wide ranging success despite the obvious appeal of the Franchaise. Why is that? Is it because the miniatures came in random packs so you never knew what you were getting? Was it the quality of the models? Was it the lack of thought or a poor ruleset?

I wish Battlefront would get hold of it and give it a Flames of War style make over! Firestorm Campaigns with Miniature starships on large Stellar Maps landing troops and then fighting out battles on tactical boards! AT-ST's with Companies of Storm Troopers assaulting positions, with ATATs in support. Rebel Commando's, Infilitate abilities, assault shuttles, Imperial Tanks etc. Early period (Old Republic) Mid Period (New Hope) Late (New Republic).

I think STAR WARS needs a good Wargaming Franchise with some staying power and some gorgeous miniatures for us to paint? WINGS OF WAR Style Starfighter combat? Your thoughts?

mwnciboo wrote:I realised the other day that a Flames of War style STAR WARS Wargame would be brilliant. Yet, no one has really grabbed this mantle, Wizards of the Coast and the previous license holders have tried but they have never really had wide ranging success despite the obvious appeal of the Franchaise. Why is that? Is it because the miniatures came in random packs so you never knew what you were getting? Was it the quality of the models? Was it the lack of thought or a poor ruleset?

I wish Battlefront would get hold of it and give it a Flames of War style make over! Firestorm Campaigns with Miniature starships on large Stellar Maps landing troops and then fighting out battles on tactical boards! AT-ST's with Companies of Storm Troopers assaulting positions, with ATATs in support. Rebel Commando's, Infilitate abilities, assault shuttles, Imperial Tanks etc. Early period (Old Republic) Mid Period (New Hope) Late (New Republic).

I think STAR WARS needs a good Wargaming Franchise with some staying power and some gorgeous miniatures for us to paint? WINGS OF WAR Style Starfighter combat? Your thoughts?

You want it, you got it: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=174

Also, to be fair, West End Games had Star Wars Miniatures Battles.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7420/star-wars-miniatures-battles

Jake




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want really nice minis to paint, Knight Models has some very nice ones: http://www.knightmodels.com/30mm_hansolo_visor_ing.html

Jake

Seen both, not mainstream enough or successful as I alluded to in the original post . I am talking about a Wargame that establishes itself and has a fairly decent following e.g

Warmachine, 40k, WH, Maulifaux, Flames of War.

The miniatures you put up are out of production and have been since 1999 when WEST END GAMES lost the license to WotC. Therefore to collect these in any number is to be an expensive and fool's errand because no one else will be collecting them. I am not paying 1000's of pounds just to have them sit on my shelf looking pretty. If someone produced the Mini's we could use a whole host of Rulesets with them (Force on Force etc). There is alot of money to be made if this was done well.

I admit something like that would definitely attract my attention. I would go straight for a Imperial Stormtrooper army supported by AT-AT's and AT-ST's! And if Vader could be at the head of such a force... perfection.

X-wing isn't even released yet. It is done by the same folks who do Wings of War and is supposed to be very simialr in style. How can you say it is not "mainstream enough or successful " when it hasn't even been released? Wings of War took off, I suspect this will too.

The minis by Knight Models 30mm Star Wars range is in production and readliy available. And they add to the admittedly limited range, it has doubled in size over the last year. Heck, the range itself is pretty darned new.

I'll suck back, by saying that it maybe mainstream in future. But bottomline, right now, the fact of the matter is that it is not mainstream is it? I hope it does do well, but it will be limited in scope, even with Wings of War as forebear we are not going to see large numbers of fighters in battle or starships are we? The scope of Star Wars is huge, it needs a suitably epic scale to present this, 28mm is probably borderline, as an AT AT in 28mm will be pretty big and therefore very expensive. A 28mm Army would be nice, but the size of the force could never be very large defined by the size of the table and the limitations on numbers of model you can physically place down.

Epic scale 10mm or 15mm would be much better, making Battalion size a possibility. The 30mm models are nice but too big, I think.

Maybe its because for most licensed movie stuff, wargaming doesnt seem too "popular" to warrant investment?

I mean everyone knows that LotR isnt the most financially successful game ever

Investing into more cheaper alternatives like board games doesnt have as bad as an investment. We can all say "oh I'll buy X" but maybe the rest of the wargaming fanbase wont

I think there is still money to be made with Star Wars, both on the epic battle front as well as miniatures. SW miniatures has a pretty strong following in my local store as well as the fact that I have seen players gathered together playing it at both GenCon and Origins after it was cancelled. With the Blu-Rays coming out, the potential for sales could have been good.

@ kenshin. Hmm, you maybe right with that point. Is it that we are a contrary bunch, who like to have an exclusive kind of community? We don't like established franchises and prefer our own franchises ?

mwnciboo wrote:...I think STAR WARS needs a good Wargaming Franchise with some staying power and some gorgeous miniatures for us to paint? WINGS OF WAR Style Starfighter combat?

When shown that it is on the way states:

mwnciboo wrote:...even with Wings of War as forebear we are not going to see large numbers of fighters in battle or starships are we?

Yeah, I would say " we are a contrary bunch " comes close.

It does not bother me one way or the other if the fluff is original or taken from an established franchise (provided that the franchise is at least colorful). If the rules are good, minis are nice and affordable, and there are plenty of options to choose from, I would be willing to give the game a go.

@CptJake - Lol, i'll put my hands up. But maybe this is a two countries one language issue. "Wings of War Style" means "similiar to" not "the same as"! Anyway it's semantics, I would like this game and I hope it will do well, but there are significant issues if it copies Wings of War. Like not being able to paint your own Miniatures, Issues of Scale etc. Maybe you could have smaller models and have them 3 to a single base (for X-wing) and maybe 6 (For TIES).

mwnciboo wrote:Wizards of the Coast and the previous license holders have tried but they have never really had wide ranging success despite the obvious appeal of the Franchaise.

On what definition are you basing 'wide ranging success'?

WotC's Star Wars Miniatures game lasted for 6 years (which is pretty good for a collectible game), is still being played, and in its prime supposedly outsold D&D.

From all reports, its demise was far more to do with WotC choosing to pull in and refocus their resources on their own D&D brand than from any failing of the game itself.

Is it because the miniatures came in random packs so you never knew what you were getting?

Not really. Collectible games tend to have a built in lifespan by their very nature, but not because of the randomness. Release a blind-buy collectible game that people like, and within 3 days someone will be selling single miniatures.

What winds up killing the more popular collectible games is that each new set release has to introduce something new... and eventually (exactly how long depending on the game designers and just how much effort the owning company chooses to put into it), the 'new' inevitably starts being less thrilling and people start losing interest.



We'll just have to wait and see what FFG does with the licence.

Have you seem these:

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=74

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=40

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=83

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=84

Some other company makes similar stuff.

Plenty of Space fleet rules out there, many with Star Wars mods/stats.

yes, not 'main stream', but then again space fleet gaming isn't main stream either.

In regards to X-Wing, it is supposed to have different mechanics than Wings of War, but will have similarities. I'm not sure why you couldn't repaint the ships as you see fit. Lots of folks repaint prepainted figures.

Future War Commander is a 'epic scale' ground combat game. I know there are Star Wars stats for it.

There are 15mm Star Wars minis if you look for them. Someone recently released a Han Solo, Boba Fett and Chewie for example. Plenty of 15mm troops could be used as both rebels and empire forces...

kenshin620 wrote:I mean everyone knows that LotR isnt the most financially successful game ever

Sorry, but that is just simply incorrect. At the peak of its popularity, LotR accounted for 28% of GW's turnover. At the time that was well over £30m per annum. In the European sector of its business on its own, the proportion was nearer 50%.

The fact that GW misjudged the inevitable interest-peak, and let Mad Wart ravage the game into obscurity doesn't detract from the fact that there are £squillions to be made from licence-tie-ins.

I agree with the OP, that if done right, there is a lot of potential for a mainstream Star Wars wargame in 15mm or 28mm. The problem with licenced ranges though is that the cost of the licence increases the risk to the manufacturer as it involves increased up-front sunk costs, and even the larger gaming "traditional" wargaming companies just don't have that kind of capital to speculate with.

mwnciboo wrote: when WEST END GAMES lost the license to WotC.

There you go:
Lost
The
License

That's the answer to your question. All the wargames you mentioned, they don't require licensing.


Osbad beat me!

@ Cptjake I like those Models, I think I will have to convince some of the Viet Taff (local Guild) to collect some of these so we can use some different Rulesets. I can repaint miniatures, but you can get some issues with them. I tend to prime them with Black or Grey and then repaint them, but you are obviously obscuring detail everytime you do this, even with a thin layer.

I am so Jealous of you guys in the USA, you have such a huge market and such a wide diversity available. Plus your Ebay market is alot bigger than the UK, it is truly staggering how much more is available in the US and not available in the UK/EU.

I agree on the License issue, but other companies make money off Star Wars items so it's not an impossible task.

On the subject of Star Wars Miniature Game, I have seen the miniatures in Forbidden planet, however I haven't seen this locally or in any tournaments. Nor have I heard of others discussing it, or our local base stocking it. Maybe it was big in the US and AUS but I am not aware of it in the UK (though I could be wrong and live in an Area that just never took to it).

I think one major problem to what you are suggesting is Lucasarts themselves. I point to what happened to Decipher Games back in 2001. From Decipher's own CEO the offer Lucas more money to hold the licence then they would have made on selling product. Take that for what you will but Lucas' move to WoTC owned by Hasbro owned by Lucasarts is questionable at best. Couple that with all the current "tinkering"/re-releasing of the films and it leans to simply lack of money being generated.

Well I think Fantasy Flight have the license for board/card/wargames based within Star Wars - so their might be hope for the future. I'd like to see a 28mm wargame or even a good 15mm one set in the Clone Wars.

I really liked Star Wars Miniatures, still have loads at home and use them every now and then with boys.

Still look for the odd bargin on ebay, but even after its been canned, the figs still sell for a fair amount. So I'd say it is still clinging to somewhat of a popularity in the minature gaming sense.

I'm more gutted over the many figs that hadn't been done, especially with the foray into the Clone Wars CGI series, that had introduced some very interesting new characters for the Clone Wars era over two expansions.

As to the idea of an actual wargame, well I'd be sold, no matter the scale, if it was affordable to have a legion of at least one hundred Stormtroopers, with attached command, AT ST's and AT AT's I'd be there in a heartbeat.

CptJake wrote:Have you seem these:

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=74

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=40

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=83

http://studiobergstrom.com/index.php?categoryID=84

Some other company makes similar stuff.

Plenty of Space fleet rules out there, many with Star Wars mods/stats.

yes, not 'main stream', but then again space fleet gaming isn't main stream either.

In regards to X-Wing, it is supposed to have different mechanics than Wings of War, but will have similarities. I'm not sure why you couldn't repaint the ships as you see fit. Lots of folks repaint prepainted figures.

Whoa. Those are cool. Not the most amazing minis, but they cover some awesome options that I'm in love with, and the price is definitely right.

As far as X-Wing goes, I talked to one of the developers at GenCon while I was trying the demo. He indicated that the initial set would be a standalone box of x-wings and tie fighters, with single releases coming in the future. I asked about expanded universe stuff, and he replied that there's a ton of movie stuff they want to tackle first, including things like b-wings, a-wings, and interceptors. Then another guy at the table asked about ships from "those other three movies," to which the developer guy responded "what other three movies?"

mwnciboo wrote:I agree on the License issue, but other companies make money off Star Wars items so it's not an impossible task.

Depending on the company, making money isn't the goal but making a certain % or amount of money in relation to the cost of R&D/work they put in is the goal. WOTC has cancelled games in the past that were profitable but simply not profitable ENOUGH. Star Wars makes the former easier (due to the large existing fanbase) but the later harder (due to strict licensing rules and requirements like approval of everything by lucasarts screwing with releases).

The other thing to consider is that the original trilogy frankly doesn't lend itself well to mass battles during its timeline outside of what you actually see in the movies. The alliance was a rag tag fleet with limited funding that operated on more of a hit and run small to medium scale basis and couldn't go toe to toe with the Empire for the over the top fights you'd expect in a mass battle game. Stuff like the attacks on the death star or setting up a large base on Hoth represent huge expenditures of resources for the Rebellion and are the exception rather than the rule. I could see that being perfect for a clone wars setting where both sides were relatively equal but that's the bastard stepchild setting for some fans (not me personally though).

The Lucas Hasbro connection may be one of the problems. They want a mass market product. They like to sell to the younger crowd, as there are usually more kids than adolescents. This leads them to produce a simple game, which most wargamers find insulting. Also the kids grow out of the game because it is so simple. This hinders the game from becoming truly established.

There are plenty of SW miniatures, including the roughly 15mm ones made by Kenner in the 80s. So there really is no obstacle to you playing a SW wargame. Just use the rules of your choice.

It would be nice but the rules would have to be first rate and the models would also have to be top quality...

Then I might buy one and convince my friends to play a game or two... the trouble about playing a Star Wars wargame is that the essence of the Sar Wars story has always been key figures making galactic change happen... Luke destroyed the death Star on his own... Stuff like that.

warboss wrote:The other thing to consider is that the original trilogy frankly doesn't lend itself well to mass battles during its timeline outside of what you actually see in the movies. The alliance was a rag tag fleet with limited funding that operated on more of a hit and run small to medium scale basis and couldn't go toe to toe with the Empire for the over the top fights you'd expect in a mass battle game. Stuff like the attacks on the death star or setting up a large base on Hoth represent huge expenditures of resources for the Rebellion and are the exception rather than the rule. I could see that being perfect for a clone wars setting where both sides were relatively equal but that's the bastard stepchild setting for some fans (not me personally though).

Exactly my point. Remember all those massive scale battles between rebel forces and Imperial forces? Oh and all those Rebel tanks that they field, which could possibly go toe to toe with an AT-AT. I just love that one scene where you see that rebel trooper hit a stormtrooper with the but of his gun, then dual wields the ST's gun, going all terminator style.

The fact of the matter is that the Clone Wars are a much better setting for this kind of game. The catch-22 is of course that it wouldn't sell well, simply because its the prequels and not the "zomgtheoriginaltrilogyistheoneandonly...gahh!"

I think the answer lies with Lucasfilm.

A few factors

1)West End's game didn't do that well. It lasted a while, but despite the Star Wars name and the rerelease of the starwars trilogy to theaters, it was never the big presence that 40k, WHFB, etc were.

2)Wizards of the coast SW game sold really well for 6 years.

3)Assume for a moment that lucasfilm doesn't want to do a minis game and a clix game to avoid canibalizing sales.

Which do you think Lucasfilm is going to do next a miniatures battle game or a CMG?

There's a number of settings that would benefit from a tabletop wargame, or should I say, I believe a tabletop wargame based on those settings would be successful...like DUNE, HALO, Star Wars, Star Craft, and a few others.....but only if handled by a competent company.

I get the impression that people who held the license in the past were of the mind to "get rich quick"! Either that, or they had no idea of how to put together a decent game, and even less idea of what the market expects in terms of miniature quality.

I think another factor in the puzzle, is that to deliver these products (lets take Star Wars for example) you would have to put some REAL work into it, after investing all that time and effort, a substantial chunk of your "profits" would / could go straight to the I.P. holder.....and what if the I.P. holder should decide to not renew your license after the agreed period? What would your company be left with?

I get the impression that alot of companies, having to put that much work and investment in, probably decide that it's safer and more economically viable to pump that resource into developing their own I.P. that they can control and reap the maximum return from.

Now, if Skywalker Ranch would invest in a team, and develop a game from "in-house"....well, that could be something

The Star Wars brand is more suited to products with limited lifetime.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Star Wars brand is more suited to products with limited lifetime.

I disagree somewhat. Most movie branded product lines tend, by nature, to have a limited lifetime, but if anything, the SW brand has more staying power than any other movie IP. Star Wars action figures and SW LEGO product lines for example have enjoyed extremely long lifetimes.

I would agree that the nature of the SW IP handling makes it more suited to limited lifetime products. Delephont says it much better than I.

Delephont wrote:
I think another factor in the puzzle, is that to deliver these products (lets take Star Wars for example) you would have to put some REAL work into it, after investing all that time and effort, a substantial chunk of your "profits" would / could go straight to the I.P. holder.....and what if the I.P. holder should decide to not renew your license after the agreed period? What would your company be left with?

I get the impression that alot of companies, having to put that much work and investment in, probably decide that it's safer and more economically viable to pump that resource into developing their own I.P. that they can control and reap the maximum return from.

This is proably the real rub. The investment required to do a really good wargame takes alot of effort, and building the community and making it strong takes years. I can see where many companies would not want to take the chance. On the otherhand, a CMG game and vinyl figures can be churned out by the millions to a ready and waiting clix/SW fanbase with much less risk and much less to lose if Lucas decides not to renew.

I think i'd prefer a star trek wargame!