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Without resorting to Vindicares or Conversion Beamers, what can Grey Knights take to deal with Monoliths?

Is it worth taking Lascannons on the razorbacks over Psy-Heavybolters in this match up?
Or is it better to get in close an let Daemon Hammers do the talking?

I feel with most the lists, either hope to immob them via Str8 autocannons, or CC with str9+ CC goodness

If you're facing a Necron army using Monoliths, remember that they're horridly slow. Avoid it and kill everything else to force Phase Out.

I would say keep with the firepower of dakka. Remember Hammerhand works before any weapon modifiers, so one squad of regular knights charges, activates HH, and if you have a daemon hammer one guy will have strength 10. Roll high and you can blow up the 250 point models with about 30 pts. Lots of fun!

Same way as every other army. Treat them as moving terrain, kill the Necrons, force phase-out.

I agree with the above post, they are nerly impossible to take down, but will phase out easy.

Please note that with a good necron player phase out will be hard to achieve w/o taking out the liths, as they can completely block LOS to thier necrons with them.

Str 10 daemon hammers will bring anything down.

As of today, the monolith is not something that should keep your GK models up all night. The necrons viewed as the worst codex out there today, and are not a very popular army.

Today, with a few exceptions, focusing on the phaseout is a valid strategy. Good necron players will do everything they can to keep their warriors out of the game for as long as possible, so until that time you will be facing a game of survival. Also, remember while they are using their monoliths to pull units out of CC, the monoliths are not shooting at you.

Don't be surprised if this changes in the next few months. I expect after the new necron 'dex we will see a lot more Necron players. The phase-out strategy may no longer be valid.

If you are looking past phase out and at a weapon that can actually penetrate then these are your options:

8 or more Psykers
Jokaero lascannons
Lascannon razorbacks
Lascannon Stormravens
Lascannon Landraiders
Conversion beamers on Techmarines or Inquisitors

If I recall correctly Daemon Hammers do not work if used in conjunction with hammerhand since Monoliths negate the S bonus, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong in this regard. Also remember that melta weaponry can work though you only have a 1 in 36 chance of doing so.

Lukus83 wrote:If you are looking past phase out and at a weapon that can actually penetrate then these are your options:

8 or more Psykers
Jokaero lascannons
Lascannon razorbacks
Lascannon Stormravens
Lascannon Landraiders
Conversion beamers on Techmarines or Inquisitors

If I recall correctly Daemon Hammers do not work if used in conjunction with hammerhand since Monoliths negate the S bonus, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong in this regard. Also remember that melta weaponry can work though you only have a 1 in 36 chance of doing so.

The strength bonus of hammerhand modifies the profile of the model before striking. As such, it still works on the 'Lith.

... with GK??? Bwahahahah!!! Look well in your dex... look at the Vindicare Assassin... Look at the Necron FAQs... look again at your Vindicare and his Turbo-penetrator... then go aout and smash those nasty monoliths...
edit: ouch... no vindicares? sorry... I can't imagine my GK without their old sniper buddy... well... str 10 daemon hammer will do just fine... If you use crowe-list you can spam Lasbacks, but in my opinion rhinos are better in a all comer list (because of the top hatch) so this can be a little list tailoring, and trust me... Necrons do not deserve list tayloring by one of the strongest codices (not the strongest but surely one of the most competitive). stun the liths with Psyflemen while you destroy the rest of his army to force phase out...

Orbital Strike Relays on a techmarine have uses against every army, and the STR10 is quite helpful against Necrons too...

The thing about OSRs is that even if a Necron player hides behind the monoliths, it can scatter onto them and still hit them. Nor is playing conservatively against GKs with OSRs on the table particularly wise, since you have to cross the field while getting bombarded with them. You can't deep-strike the monoliths very close because of warp quake, so GKs have the tools they need already. Add a tech-priest - they have multiple uses and are useful against any army.

Dunwich wrote:Without resorting to Vindicares or Conversion Beamers, what can Grey Knights take to deal with Monoliths?

Well it's a good thing you wouldn't resort to these since the Vindicare can't hurt it (Living Metal) and Beamers can't pen. unless they are 48.1"+ away.

Best bet I've found is to ignore it. It has a 30" threat range only which is easy enough to stay out of, and with massed assault it isn't too hard to Phase Out the army in one fell swoop.

A dreadknight with daemonhammer and teleporter would do the trick nicely, although it wouldnt be a great all comers choice.

punkow wrote:... with GK??? Bwahahahah!!! Look well in your dex... look at the Vindicare Assassin... Look at the Necron FAQs... look again at your Vindicare and his Turbo-penetrator... then go aout and smash those nasty monoliths...
edit: ouch... no vindicares? sorry... I can't imagine my GK without their old sniper buddy... well... str 10 daemon hammer will do just fine... If you use crowe-list you can spam Lasbacks, but in my opinion rhinos are better in a all comer list (because of the top hatch) so this can be a little list tailoring, and trust me... Necrons do not deserve list tayloring by one of the strongest codices (not the strongest but surely one of the most competitive). stun the liths with Psyflemen while you destroy the rest of his army to force phase out...

Liths ignore results of 1+2

ouch... you're right... you can still immobilize or destroy weapons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well it's a good thing you wouldn't resort to these since the Vindicare can't hurt it (Living Metal) and Beamers can't pen. unless they are 48.1"+ away.

Not true... look at the faqs

Btw if he doesn't have a C'tan arrive in close combat and take 'em down...

punkow wrote:ouch... you're right... you can still immobilize or destroy weapons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well it's a good thing you wouldn't resort to these since the Vindicare can't hurt it (Living Metal) and Beamers can't pen. unless they are 48.1"+ away.

Not true... look at the faqs

Indeed. Look at the FAQs. There's nothing in any of them to bypass the "STR+D6 only" rule.

Dashofpepper wrote:

punkow wrote:ouch... you're right... you can still immobilize or destroy weapons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well it's a good thing you wouldn't resort to these since the Vindicare can't hurt it (Living Metal) and Beamers can't pen. unless they are 48.1"+ away.

Not true... look at the faqs

Indeed. Look at the FAQs. There's nothing in any of them to bypass the "STR+D6 only" rule.

No kiddin I was lookin everywhere, what a waste of time

In the old Daemonhunters or necron faq (don't remember which), it was explicitly stated that turbopenetrator round worked against liths ... obviously they're no longer available but there's no reason to think that things have changed since the urbopenetrator is pretty the same... Remember that turbopen do not let you roll str3+4d6 but simply roll 4d6 and so there are no bonus dice but only a random determined armour pen...
GW removed those faqs but didn't say that they changed interpretation, so ... vindis rolls 4d6 against liths... but feel free to think what you want... I'm not starting a debate here...

edit... rememberd which one : this...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-11_Edition.pdf

indeed....

I love how everyone always says "ignore them and go for phase out" as if the OP NEVER thought of that. Maybe he has tried but couldn't force the phase out for whatever reason? +1 to Dash and Lukus for actually giving advice.

Weapons that will help you (mostly stated already) are:

1. str10 hammers
2. auto-penning librarian power
3. vindicare assassin (although this one will get debated ALL the time)
4. Orbital Relay
5. dccw
6. Conversion beamer
7. las cannons
8. 8+ pysker squads
9. melta guns

the further down the list you go, the crappier your odds

punkow wrote:In the old Daemonhunters or necron faq (don't remember which), it was explicitly stated that turbopenetrator round worked against liths ... obviously they're no longer available but there's no reason to think that things have changed since the urbopenetrator is pretty the same... Remember that turbopen do not let you roll str3+4d6 but simply roll 4d6 and so there are no bonus dice but only a random determined armour pen...
GW removed those faqs but didn't say that they changed interpretation, so ... vindis rolls 4d6 against liths... but feel free to think what you want... I'm not starting a debate here...

edit... rememberd which one : this...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-11_Edition.pdf

indeed....

The Turbo penetrator round does not simply roll 4D6, what it does is use the sniper's Str. of 3 plus 4D6 which count as the armor penetration. The Living Metal rule specifically states that armor penetration cannot be anything more then Str. plus a single D6, however, let's assume that the Str. 3 + 4D6 is not how it works and is instead just the 4D6. It still does not work as that 4D6 specifically states that it is for armor penetration and the Living Metal rule says that armor penetration is only ever going to be Str. + a single D6, so in that instance you are reduced down by a maximum roll of 3 because you do not get the Str. added in


Also, chapter approved FAQ, lists, and really anything are no longer valid

.... The wording for the turbo-pen rule is the same and the Codex: necron sadly is the same... so why the interpretation should change? Of course chapter approved is no longer valid but it surely represent a precedent to interpretate a similar situation... And nothing short of a new faq stating th opposite will make me change my mind.
When I am playing, Turbo-pen roll 4d6 even against liths but you are free to do as you prefer...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and again...it's not str3+4d6... it doesn't say "rolls 4d6 for armour penetration" but "it has a armour penetration of 4d6" that is exactly the same as the old wording that used to mean that you were just rolling 3d6...
But if you prefer to face a guy that has an average of Armour pen 17 (!!!) go ahead...

Yes, it has an armor penetration roll of 4D6 and the Monolith has the Living Metal rule which states an armor penetration roll can never be more then Str. + a single D6, which is what the Turbo-penetrator round would be violating

Again? There's a Faq explaining what the wording means... if you do not like it, well... do as you wish...

BRB says armor pen is str + d6. Turbo rounds say armor pen is 4d6, and still uses the sniper rule. So turbo pen is 3 +4d6 pen.
Living metal says you never roll more then str plus 1d6. So vindicares wont work.

I'm out of here... if you don't even care taking a look at the link I posted....

Yeah, except the LATEST faq for games workshop, doesnt mention it. And its games workshops policy to have the lates overwrite the older. Plus thats for an outdate versions, when the assassin had 1 turbo perpetrator round. and rolled 3d6 for pen. Now its str 3 +4d6 and unlimited rounds and a whole new codex.

Edit: For typos and clarification

the wording of penetrator round is EXACTLY the same... so, unless gw release a faq that contradicts the older one, I'll assume that it should be interpreted in the same way.

Btw if we want continue arguing we should move to YMDC....

punkow wrote:the wording of penetrator round is EXACTLY the same... so, unless gw release a faq that contradicts the older one, I'll assume that it should be interpreted in the same way.

Btw if we want continue arguing we should move to YMDC....

You should start a thread there, this still seems to be a contested ruling.