Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So if the sons of Russ continue to piss off the Inquisition to the point that one Rogue Inquisitor begins to get a lot of support behind the idea of dealing with them(Excommunication and the like). How far do you think it would progress? Would the Grey Knights be forced to get involved pr would they try to withhold their support?

My opinion: The Space Wolves can defend Fenris pretty well but I think they would definitely need allies which I imagine all the loyal founding chapters would fulfill but then you would have another civil war which would be pretty hard on the IoM. It could get pretty serious but I think the high lords of terra would side against the Inquisition because the conflict has the potential to leave the Imperium even weaker then it initially was after the Horus Heresy.

I don't think it would go anywhere. Space Wolves are a first founding.. EG they descend directly from the Great Crusade, and they have a long history which ties them to the Imperium. While all Chapters are supposed to be equal (in theory) the fact is First Foundings tend to have more power and influence due to history and Imperial Propoganda compared to other Chapters, and the Space Wolves (and Blood angels, and probably the Dark Angels and other first foundings) benefit from this. More than that Logan Grimnar is perhaps one of the more active, influential, and damn kickass Chapter Masters out there - he and the Space Wolves have been heavily involved in a great many of the major conflicts of the 41st Millenium, and they quite likely have built up as much goodwill (and contacts/influence) in the Imperium as they have made enemies (like their close links to House Belisarius.) There's also the politics angle. an Inquisitor's authority, despite being theoretically limitless, is in truth not really so - due to politics, perceptions of strength, standing in the Inquisition, etc. A single Inquisitor of no great fame trying to bring down a First Founding Chapter is probably not going to go well. Hell probably not even a Sector-levle Inquisitor Lord. Someone at the segmentum or higher level? Quite possibly, but I suspect that at that level other matters become important.

I'd also suspect that trying to toss out the Space Wolves would be coming dangerously close to opening the whole "history of the Horus Heresy" can of worms in addiiton to undermining millenia of Imperial Space Marine Propoganda.

I thought about starting this discussion with a friend of mine who is a serious Wolf player and his interpretation of the fluff, but have shyed away from it because we wouldnt get anywhere since he is in complete defense of the Wolves and I am in complete defence of the inquisition.

The Inquisition in general is driven by fear (Exluding Grey Knights becuase they are space marines and they fear nothing)... fear of the unknown, fear of loss of control, they are very human and they know it, yet they are the bravest in the Imperium due to their duties. They have to be brave to combat the horrors of the galaxy, whether they be Daemonic, Xenotic, or Heretical in nature. Sometimes harnessing this power they find it possible to overcome any odds. They are also responsible for the death of untold trillions and infinitely more depending on the number of Exterminati used. I believe that the Grey Knights would fight for the simple fact that they space wolves are space marines and the only true way to beat a space marine is with another of equal or greater power, which the Grey Knights are their superior. What would fuel this is the allegation of the pagan worship that exists within the SW chapter, and that what they are really worshipping is chaos gods/daemons. I do not believe the codex marines would send aid even on principle since the Wolves were the major Chapter to be against it. I could see another civil war breaking out, if only to reawaken the emporer in some way to have him stop the fighting, the SM armies crippled and the Inquisition broken... thus we have an opening for 6th edition... truely epic charaters wrecking untold havoc upon platoons and walking away scott free...

It does not even make sense for an Inquisitor, excluding their secret loyalties to Chaos or some stupid thing, to declare Space Wolves heretics or traitors. The Imperium is in such a perilous situation in both military and domestic terms with exterior threats abroad and chaos insurgents within, why would you cut away this huge, powerful and versatile ally (the Space Wolves)? It does not make any sense what so ever... It's almost like.... the Inquisition hates the Imperium?

Over the past couple millennia, the Space Wolves have managed to get into a fight with pretty much every other Imperial organization, from the Navy to the Guard to the Ecclesiarchy to the Inquisition. Given that the Council of High Lords is made up of people from these organizations, you can bet that there is at least a certain amount of animosity towards the Wolves present within the Senatorum.

Something to consider: The Ecclesiarch does not have the supreme authority to declare Wars of Faith alone - he must have consent from the High Lords of Terra. Given that the Church has already sent its armies to attack Fenris in retaliation for the slaughter of a bunch of clerics, it very much seems as if the verdict of the High Lords as well as the Ordo Hereticus (which monitors the Wars of Faith as well) is already cast.

I'm not sure about their standing with other Marine Chapters, though I would think that they have friends as well as rivals.

Still, I just don't see it happening. The Space Wolves have an insanely thick plot armour, up to the point of having gotten into a fight with more or less the entire Segmentum Pacificus - and still having managed to come out victorious. A logical conclusion would be to just drop an Exterminatus onto Fenris and call it a day, but as this is something the Wolves could not defend against (?) and since I see no sign of GW changing something about the Wolves' popularity-driven status, it remains out of the question.

The problem will be, of course, that the Space Wolves will likely continue to troll every Imperial faction without ever having to face any kind of consequence for their rebellious attitude and rampant geneseed mutation. They're "too cool to loose".

SW are "Frenemies" with the DA, having a long standing Rivalry.

The Wolves won't go too far.

Sure they like to push the envelope of what they can get away with, but a single chapter of Marines cannot stand against the unified might of the Imperium.

They would face the question of either being shattered by the Imperium, abandoning Fenris and fleeing into the Maelstrom, or go through a period of penance.

Fact is, as bad ass the Space Wolves (think they) are, they can not stand against the Imperium, nor can they expect the aide of other codex chapters- since the entire point of breaking into chapters was to isolate rebellions of Space Marines.

It would be a big war, and it would make Huron and the Astral Claws fiasco look like a minor conflict. But ultimately there wouldn't be any question about the inevitability of an Imperial victory.

It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.
Sure, the Fang is mighty and Fenris is a deathworld but there comes a point when sheer numbers of men, heavy equipment and warships are just too much of an advantage to defend against for long.

akaean wrote:The Wolves won't go too far.

Sure they like to push the envelope of what they can get away with, but a single chapter of Marines cannot stand against the unified might of the Imperium.

They would face the question of either being shattered by the Imperium, abandoning Fenris and fleeing into the Maelstrom, or go through a period of penance.

Fact is, as bad ass the Space Wolves (think they) are, they can not stand against the Imperium, nor can they expect the aide of other codex chapters- since the entire point of breaking into chapters was to isolate rebellions of Space Marines.

It would be a big war, and it would make Huron and the Astral Claws fiasco look like a minor conflict. But ultimately there wouldn't be any question about the inevitability of an Imperial victory.

You got a few things wrong. There will be know unified might of the Imperium, the Space Wolves are to big and well known. And unless they do something stupid like join Chaos, atleast several chapters of Space Marines will support them. This war will somewhere between the Horus Heresy and the Babab War and will cripple the Imperium if not destroy it.

I say not just because I like the Space Wolves, I dislike those nutjobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.
Sure, the Fang is mighty and Fenris is a deathworld but there comes a point when sheer numbers of men, heavy equipment and warships are just too much of an advantage to defend against for long.

Read The Battle of the Fang, Magus thought the same you.

If it did go that far, and I am not saying that it would, it wouldn't take armies and millions of troops and such. All it would require is a single ship, one not bearing the =I= on its prow, equipped with the tools for Exterminatus, and then Fenris would be no more. A single weapon that, say, causes a chemical reaction that converts all of the planet's water into its separate hydrogen and oxygen molecules would be the end of the story, as the entire planet would then explode. Given that Fenris is a world of barbarians living in wooden longhouses, caves and animal-hide ships and such... well, you know they eat around bonfires and the like. When their atmosphere suddenly becomes flammable? That's it. Those who survive the planet-wide conflagration then suffocate because there's no oxygen anymore.

Then what do you do? You deposit some captured Tyranid on the planet and let them undergo a few years of eating dead kraken and other biomatter so that you turn Fenris into a zoo of Tyranids. When anyone comes to see what happened to Fenris... you have the appearance of the fate the Squats all over again.

Or, if you just want to be a dick about it, you equip that ship with Cyclonic torpedoes, and fire them, not at the Fang, but at one of the shallower oceans of the world. Though, yes, these oceans are still very deep, these torpedoes are designed to burrow into the crust of a planet and cause its core to explode, thus literally shattering the planet.

No one survives that.

Will this ever happen? Of course not. While the Wolves might push the envelope and piss off a few random Inquisitors, they remain one of the most popular, gregarious Chapters of Space Marines in the Imperium. Tales of their adventures are told across the galaxy. I'm sure there's even a game using small tin soldiers where children of the Imperium, and particularly fanatic adult fans of the Chapter, can re-enact the greatest victories of the Space Wolves on table-top boards.

The Inquisition, as a body, isn't interested in causing that sort of upheaval and strife within the Imperium (though some factions, like Istavaanians, might...). What conflicts they have had with the Wolves hasn't really been enough to raise the question, within the Inquisition as a whole, as to the allegiance of the Space Wolves.

Should it get to that point, however, then the Wolves will need to be taking part in actions that appear to be extremely counter to the Imperium as a whole, actions that, if knowledge of them gets out, may cause them to lose the popular support of the Imperial citizenry.

Luna Dragon wrote:

KingDeath wrote:It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.
Sure, the Fang is mighty and Fenris is a deathworld but there comes a point when sheer numbers of men, heavy equipment and warships are just too much of an advantage to defend against for long.

Read The Battle of the Fang, Magus thought the same you.

Even better, read the Plague of Unbelief. Here's a transcript: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief

In short: Space Wolves > an entire Segmentum. And people think Draigo is over the top.

Psienesis wrote:actions that, if knowledge of them gets out, may cause them to lose the popular support of the Imperial citizenry.

Actually, I wouldn't be so sure the Wolves are so famous anywhere beyond their own piece of space. It's not like the "Imperial citizenry" is well informed and has access to some galactic internet, what with communication between worlds basically being limited to astropathic transmissions and the good old "word of mouth" of travellers and pilgrims. I could believe that citizen Joe Smith isn't even aware of there being a difference between one Chapter of Space Marines and another. It's all part of the bigger legend. On most worlds, there's maybe a big statue of some Astartes hero, and that's that.

The problem I see with Space Wolves isn't that it would take more support for someone who wanted to wipe them out - the High Lords and the Inquisition like this idea already, and you don't need anything else to declare Exterminatus (you wouldn't even have to tell the other Marines...) - it's simply that their OOC importance for the franchise is too big to have them suffer the consequences that would otherwise be deemed necessary. This is pretty much a "get out of jail free" card for whatever dickery they could possibly come up with in the next couple years.

Don't forget that the 13th company and all of the space wolves that have recanted their oaths of loyalty would come back if the Space Wolf chapter were to face genocide. Leman Russ himself said he would too.

As Lynata pointed out, they've already withstood quite a large invasion force during the time of Goge Vandire. The only other citadel in the galaxy that is as powerful as the fang is the Imperial palace on Earth. The Emperor made sure of that during the Great Crusade.

And none of this is new fluff either. they've always had this much plot armor. It's even in the first 40k codex ever made...the Space Wolf codex from 2nd edition. There are plenty of people in GW that have always liked the Space Wolves and there probably always will be.

C:SW from as far back as 1992 states that the Wolves are the most popular Marine Chapter in the Imperium, with stories of their exploits being told across the galaxy, icons of their heroes, like Logan Grimnar and Bjorn the Fell-Handed being erected on Shrine Worlds and Hive squares in every Segmentum, yadda yadda. Part of this is due to their actions during their Great Hunts, which sees the Chapter going off across the Imperium to search for Russ and, in so doing, encountering, and kicking the ass of, Evil far from home, saving Hive Worlds and defending pilgrim ships and doing all that sort of heroic Space Wolf stuff they are famous for.

The Wolves have fan-boys even in the 40K universe.

Alright, you learn something new every day! I didn't know about these Great Hunts, I suppose that could explain a certain amount of fame.

The High Lords and the Ordo Hereticus still don't like them tho.

There's no reason for anyone to want to wipe out the Wolves. Maybe some nutter ultra-Puritan type might, but even then being First Founding probably gives them some cover. As long as the Wolves keep the status quo, they should be fine.

That said, any conflict would be very short. You'd just roll in with a major battlefleet, approach Fenris so that The Fang is on the opposite side of the planet, and then choose an option or two off of the Exterminatus menu. Fenris is a Death World after all, with meh resources and a potential infestation of early Tyranid organisms living on it. If someone wanted to get rid of the Space Wolves, there's no reason for them to care about keeping the planet usable.

It's been said already but, yeah Logan Grimnar is a huge celebrity in the Imperium. I don't know if he has the title "Hero of the Imperium" but the masses love him.

Well, yeah, they COULD do that, but honestly, where has that been a solution for the imperium, when they could be fighting on the ground? Exterminatus really isn't their first solution to any problem. And I think you are giving the space wolves too little credit. Given enough time, and they are going to get it, its rather hard to mask building up an army, especially when you have the resources at hand to a first founding, they are going to call in all their favours, petition any neutral factions for support, and generally build up a sizable force. A number of the first foundings are more than likely going to render support, they fought alongside each other in the crusades, at the very least. Give the Space wolves a little credit.

The =I= does all sorts of secret things that the rest of the Imperium, the High Lords included, have no right or remit to know.

Randomonioum wrote:Well, yeah, they COULD do that, but honestly, where has that been a solution for the imperium, when they could be fighting on the ground? Exterminatus really isn't their first solution to any problem. And I think you are giving the space wolves too little credit. Given enough time, and they are going to get it, its rather hard to mask building up an army, especially when you have the resources at hand to a first founding, they are going to call in all their favours, petition any neutral factions for support, and generally build up a sizable force. A number of the first foundings are more than likely going to render support, they fought alongside each other in the crusades, at the very least. Give the Space wolves a little credit.

I agree with this when I look at the Inquisition accusing the Space Wolves of any heresy due to their rituals or even how they may conduct themselves its going basically send a message to all the other Founding chapters that "this could be you but right now its not". The Astartes would side with the Space Wolves on principle alone at that point.
I don't think it comes down to just accusing a well loved chapter its the message that it sends.

Lynata wrote:Alright, you learn something new every day! I didn't know about these Great Hunts, I suppose that could explain a certain amount of fame.

The High Lords and the Ordo Hereticus still don't like them tho.

The Ordo Hereticus don't like *any* of the Space Marine chapters, as pretty much all of them have heretical practices. It's an open secret, though, that the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus largely ignore those practices in the interests of harmony between the marines and the rest of the Imperium as attempting to purge the chapters of those practices would essentially force the extermination of nearly all of the chapters.

That wouldn't go over too well with the general public. And there's the loss of fighting power that would be involved.

Instead, the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus largely turn a blind eye... until some particularly Puritanical Inquisitor or Ecclesiarchy evangelical type gets wind of these heresies and gets a bee in his bonnet over it. They're promptly provided with a seemingly large, yet still insufficient military force to go "deal with" the "heretics", and the predictable occurs.

I don't see the incident mentioned in the Space Wolf codex as anything other than one of these occasional occurances.

The first founding chapters have a lot of leeway in their rituals and beliefs because the Big E was there with them and approved of their teachings long before the "ecclesiarchy" existed. The whole Vandire debacle was about the ecclesiarchy trying to flex it's muscles over the space marines and it didn't work. The Inquisition remembers that lesson well and nothing short of the wolves openly declaring for chaos would be impetus enough to launch a campaign against them.
Bank on other marine chapters with unorthodox (but Big E approved) practices standing with them too. The resulting mess would be in nobody's interest, except for maybe Tzeench laughing in the background somewhere.

If the =][= wanted to get rid of the 'wolves, than they would throw wave after wave of guard after them...if they the wolves were summoning daemons......than the =][= would throw the Knights at them...

In the age of Goge Vandire they did throw wave after wave of Imperial Guard at them and the guard got nowhere fast. Like I said, the Fang is the best fortress in the galaxy except for the Emperors palace. And it took half the traitor legions to TRY to bring it down. You really think the Guard stand a chance against the fang? Not likely.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:In the age of Goge Vandire they did throw wave after wave of Imperial Guard at them and the guard got nowhere fast. Like I said, the Fang is the best fortress in the galaxy except for the Emperors palace. And it took half the traitor legions to TRY to bring it down. You really think the Guard stand a chance against the fang? Not likely.

If every Guardsman in the Imperium attacked it they could bury the planet in bodies...
As it is the Imperium doesn't have the resources to spare to attack and capture a major fortress on a death world held by a force willing to kill anyone who comes near them.

Here's how it could go:

The Inq would act as prosecutor.
The HLoT and most respected SM chapters would act as the jury deciding only guilt.
The most respected SM chapters would rightly insist (and the HLoT would most likely acquiesce) that the SMs decide on and carry out sentencing.
The respected SM chapters would offer the SWs terms of surrender.
The trajectory of negotiations, if any, with the SWs would be the SWs vindication or damnation.
GK assistance in purity testing of surrendered SWs may be requested or offered.
GK assistance in execution of any actions may be requested or offered upon confirmation of powerful demonic activity. (e.g. Russ returns as a demon primarch.)

It'd take a very serious offense for an all-out attack against the Space Wolves to be launched. Worshiping Chaos, raiding nearby worlds, defaming the Emperor, etc..

Inquisition wouldn't use the GK's unless there were Daemons involved. It'd mostly be other Space Marine Chapters (I can see the Dark Angels volunteering), SoB, and lots n lots of Imperial guard led by Inquisitors. Can see the Officio Assassinorum also getting involved to eliminate Grimnar.

In the end the SW would be crushed, but only after heavy IG losses and a long campaign on Fenris.

Not gonna happen unless, as someone else said, the SW starts going around with chaos (probably Khorne) insigna on their armor.
Let's face reality here, the Eclesiarchy is alread at odds with pretty much all the chapters out there and it's not really the Astartes problem, it's the clerics. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, the Astartes (with few exceptions) still follow the teachings of the Emperor, as passed on to them from their Primarches first and chapter masters later, which means they are still the true (and probably only) holder of the Imperial Truth. The SM might leave the Eclesiarchy alone because they see the use for the average citizen to believe in the Imperial Creed, but that doesn't mean they actually like the idea the Imperium as whole goes against the very will of the Emperor.
So let's say the eclesiarchy wants to put the dog down, what's gonna happen is most chapter might as well see it as the last straw, make a stand along with the SW and teach the Eclesiarchy once again what happens when they try to mess with the Emperor's Angels of Death. Even the most diplomatic chapters would most likely join side with the SW, even if it meant to destabilize the Imperium for a brief time because a SM, let alone a whole chapter, would never back down on their honor.

Heck, the Astartes could even start to re-educate the Imperium about the Imperial Truth, and it's likely the SM would win it. Why ? Because even the average citizen knows they are the chosen of the Emperor and who do you think they're gonna believe, a human cleric of an Adeptus Astates ?

I can't see anyone actually trying to kill off the SW. I mean wouldn't it just make more sense to ground them. Take away there battle barges and require them to ask for transport. Can they do that?

Of course the wolves couldn't survive the "unified might of the Imperium", but that really isn't the point.

The big problem is that unless they go full heretic the inquisition, HLOT, and various military resources would likely NOT be united against the wolves, and that is what protects them. As much as some inquisitors hate them, others don't. A first founding chapter has massive amounts of fame and loyalty. To many citizens of the imperium it would be akin to a cardinal trying to excommunicate an arch-angel.

Just like in the heresy you are going to be having traitors on both sides at all levels of leadership. It isn't the IoM vs the Wolves, it is the IoM pro wolves vs the IoM anti wolves.

What's most SM chapters are likely to side with the wolves as a matter of principle. They are technically supposed to be peers of the inquisition and not under their jurisdiction, and a such challenge to their autonomy can't go unchallenged. After all, if a first founding chapter can be pushed around like that, which chapter is safe?

For similar reasons you are likely to get the Rogue Traders in on the wolves side. They are also 'peers of the inquisition'. Factions of the adeptus mechanus and navigators nobilus are going to the in the same boat. When the inquisition starts throwing its weight around in such a huge way, and without a darn good reason, they are seriously threatening every major autonomus faction in the Imperium, upsetting the balance of power that keeps the IoM operating.

So no, no one, or even non-majority group of inquisitors could challenge the wolves. Not because the wolves themselves are so tough, but because of the delicate political situation in the IoM.

Honestly, the Inquisition has so many ties and allies that if the Space Wolves actually manage to start a war with them, they'll immediately be screwed. They've gotten away with more crap than any other Chapter (Wulfren, ignoring the Codex Astartes, refusing to believe they use psykers, ect.) and if they finally pushed a powerful organization too far everybody they had ever dissed would ally with that organization.

That being said, the Space Wolves are useful to the Imperium and it is unlikely that the Inquisition would actually deem it necessary to declare war on them.