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Lynata wrote:The former, of course. And I really don't think the clerics have called the Marines "heretics".

As I recall things, accusations of worshipping "Pagan gods" - eg anyone NOT the Emperor, is heresy. Or even if they are worshipping the Emperor, they may not be doing so in the Ecclesiarchy approved manner, which is also heretical. This also amounts to telling the Wolves that the way in which they regard their Primarch and Emperor is wrong, and Astartes regardless of the Chapter do not take well to people belittling their Primarchs and practices.

Usually stuff like this goes: (a) Imperial emissary approaches and wants to talk, (b) Space Marines tell him to feth off, (c) guy leaves.
In this case, however, and unlike any other loyalist Chapter, the Wolves have waived the off-fething phase and killed them in cold blood. That's a damn suspicious thing. For the SW, I imagine they just had a good laugh at their style of flipping the IoM the finger, but I wager there's a couple highly influential people who think the furballs are currently "huronizing"

The quote said nothing about anyone actually dying from being fired on though. If the Wolves had wiped out the delegation entirely, then why did the Ecclesiarchy return and try to force an invasion? The fact they return a year later suggests someone got away to tell the story, and the context makes it clear their ship was fired upon (they were still in orbit, they never reached the ground.)

Also I dispute the notion that the Ecclesiarchy is the representation of the IOM as a whole.

To quote, they "open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy". Warning shots from the Fang's guns will have a pretty devastating effect when detonating in the midst of a bunch of robed clergy.

Depends on what they fired and what kind of ship it was, wouldn't you say?

Alas, I suppose this will be another topic where the opinions are just too far apart and surely influenced by personal perception. Due to the nature of how the franchise works, all of our interpretations are equally valid, anyways. I suppose all the stuff we already posted will be sufficient for any other readers to form their own opinion, too.

I suppose, but I'm not sure how this can be interpreted as anyone dying, when no mention of what happens when the ship is fired upon even occurs. That strikes me as pure inference, unless there is more data I am somehow missing?

Kanluwen wrote:Before the Imperium started pulling the defenses he worked so diligently to establish, everything was hunky-dory. It's not even like the guy chose to just say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day because an Inquisitor was mean to him.

When did GW add THAT to the Badab War fluff?

The original fluff was that yes, indeed, he did more or less say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day - although there's no indication that an Inquisitor had anything to do with it. Actually, there was the minor detail of the Imperium realizing that something was wrong, sending forces to go investigate, getting involved in a shooting war with him, having a couple of chapters get involved on Huron's side because they didn't realize he was in the wrong, and finally Huron's piracy of the shipping of yet another space marine chapter finally causing the chapters at large to realize that Huron was the bad guy and bringing in enough marines to crush him.

Only after all of that did he finally run off to Spikymarine Land.

The Ministrorum is not known for been diplomatic or subtle either, they want it done their way, period.
So if the ecclesiarchy sent some clerics to Fenris to investigate those would have surelly acted all high and mighty with the Wolves and the way I see it, they got it lucky with warning shots heh

Can I just say, you know your argument is unlikely to get anywhere when it's gone down to the 'multiple-mini-quotes' stage...

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Lynata wrote:Oh, I don't claim those priests had any approval (although they may have had the consent of the Ecclesiarch, who is at least one High Lord)

Ummm...

Lynata wrote:Well, that's your opinion. The SW's alleged "massive support" obviously didn't prevent the High Lords from sanctioning an Ecclesiarchal attack on their planet.

Being a First Founding Chapter undoubtedly grants some clout, but it shouldn't (in my opinion) grant total immunity. And at the end of the day, the Space Wolves are the one and only Chapter that keeps getting attention by regularly screwing with the IoM whilst not having to suffer consequences. They let the entire Imperium look like a pushover. I'm totally okay with them remaining in the loyalist fold, they're a fan-favorite after all - I'm just saying that GW could at least either tone down the rebellious attitude a bit or hint at an ongoing investigation with potentially grave results (which will simply never matter in the timeline of the game). My thoughts on the subject, anyways.

I thought this whole thing was settled anyway, after what was pretty much a realisation that the Space Wolves weren't really the aggressors or at the very least the only ones to blame. Going in, accusing a 1st founding Chapter (that led the defence in both the 1st war for Armageddon & the 13th Black Crusade, as well as other numerous campaigns) of wrong-doing is a pretty big accusation to make, particularly to one such as the Space Wolves, let alone then doing it with a blatant display of force (the 2nd time)...

I don't get why you think they may not "remain in the loyalist fold", or how they are "regularly screwing with the IoM", or how "they let the entire Imperium look like a pushover". Honestly, Lynata, if you could tell me your reasoning for these thoughts, I'd love to know.
I'm not a relentless SW fanboy, I just genuinely don't see much basis behind these claims.

Connor MacLeod wrote:As I recall things, accusations of worshipping "Pagan gods" - eg anyone NOT the Emperor, is heresy. [... ]This also amounts to telling the Wolves that the way in which they regard their Primarch and Emperor is wrong, and Astartes regardless of the Chapter do not take well to people belittling their Primarchs and practices.

The Codex didn't say anything like that, though - like Kan, you presume. It is just as likely that they didn't even get a chance to say anything because they were fired upon as soon as they got in range - even more if it really was a ship (see below). Personally, I think contact was made, but in a manner that was neither "properly submissive" (in the ways of the Wolves) nor as arrogant and demanding as you think - the golden medium, so to say. At least I don't have reason to believe otherwise.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The quote said nothing about anyone actually dying from being fired on though. If the Wolves had wiped out the delegation entirely, then why did the Ecclesiarchy return and try to force an invasion? The fact they return a year later suggests someone got away to tell the story, and the context makes it clear their ship was fired upon (they were still in orbit, they never reached the ground.)

I actually took it in a way that the Wolves did not fire upon a ship but on a bunch of people as they were walking up to their gates (with their ship then making off). I can see now how it could be interpreted either way, however, depending on the angle they approached the planet from, and perhaps also depending on whether you believe the Ecclesiarchy has its own ships.

As for the news, there's always a way to explain it. There could have been escorts, or there could have been a last-minute transmission by the ship's astropath. Or maybe the Ecclesiarchy simply assumed the worst when a ship sent to investigate rumours of heresy didn't return. Or, yes, if it really was the ship, maybe it was only damaged but not destroyed. Whatever it was, it was subjected to some direct hits from pretty impressive weapons.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Also I dispute the notion that the Ecclesiarchy is the representation of the IOM as a whole.

Well, they're no Inquisitors of course, but they certainly have influence - given that they have a seat on the Council of High Lords and have Ecclesiarchal clergy and operates on each Navy vessel, in each Guard regiment and in many noble houses, not to mention the countless Confessors tending to the faithful masses of commoners. Generally, I'd consider all high officials of the Imperial Adepta as Imperial envoys (regardless of whether it's an Ecclesiarchal quorum, a senior Arbiter or an Adeptus Terra tithe assessment clerk), but I suppose this is a matter of semantics.

Just Dave wrote:I don't get why you think they may not "remain in the loyalist fold", or how they are "regularly screwing with the IoM", or how "they let the entire Imperium look like a pushover". Honestly, Lynata, if you could tell me your reasoning for these thoughts, I'd love to know.

Eh, it's just that they are the one and only Chapter where such stories of defiance and outright armed conflict keep popping up. Then there's also the rampant geneseed-mutation, and now apparently pagan beliefs beyond the normal scope of Astartes deviation from the Creed. Other Marine Chapters have been excommunicated for less. Let's just say I'm criticizing the lack of consequences - it really doesn't mesh with my interpretation of the power and authority of various Imperial organizations (first and foremost the Inquisition itself) and thus the entire Imperium.

If none of you have a problem with that kind of history and really consider the Wolves above any kind of retribution, alright. As I said, none of our interpretations can be wrong, regardless of what any of us will post. I shouldn't have gotten involved into the debate so deeply just because of my personal perception, but I suppose this is one of my character flaws. I'll try to refrain from adding promethium to this thread's fire any further from now on.

Lynata wrote:I actually took it in a way that the Wolves did not fire upon a ship but on a bunch of people as they were walking up to their gates (with their ship then making off). I can see now how it could be interpreted either way, however, depending on the angle they approached the planet from, and perhaps also depending on whether you believe the Ecclesiarchy has its own ships.

Just Dave wrote:I don't get why you think they may not "remain in the loyalist fold", or how they are "regularly screwing with the IoM", or how "they let the entire Imperium look like a pushover". Honestly, Lynata, if you could tell me your reasoning for these thoughts, I'd love to know.

Eh, it's just that they are the one and only Chapter where such stories of defiance and outright armed conflict keep popping up. Then there's also the rampant geneseed-mutation, and now apparently pagan beliefs beyond the normal scope of Astartes deviation from the Creed. Other Marine Chapters have been excommunicated for less. Let's just say I'm criticizing the lack of consequences - it really doesn't mesh with my interpretation of the power and authority of various Imperial organizations (first and foremost the Inquisition itself) and thus the entire Imperium.

If none of you have a problem with that kind of history and really consider the Wolves above any kind of retribution, alright. As I said, none of our interpretations can be wrong, regardless of what any of us will post. I shouldn't have gotten involved into the debate so deeply just because of my personal perception, but I suppose this is one of my character flaws. I'll try to refrain from adding promethium to this thread's fire any further from now on.

Personally, I interpreted as shot at their ships whilst they were in space, much more easy to 'warn' then, whilst I can't imagine A) the wolves wanted them on Fenris at all, and B) landing on Fenris isn't the easiest thing in the world...

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Again, what evidence is there "that they are the one and only Chapter where such stories of defiance and outright armed conflict keep popping up"?! There's 2 (related, so what? 1.5) incidents with the ecclisiarchy wanting to investigate Fenris - where, to be fair, many Chapters would tell 'em to shove it - or when they opposed the Inquisition's plan to have "all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war". That's all that's really noted AFAIK and the 2nd one's not really a bad thing.
The Space Wolves aren't known for opposing Imperial decrees for fun, they typically do it because they believe it opposes the interests of humans themselves (rather than the Imperium itself).

You mention other Chapters being excommunicated for less; these other Chapters didn't so doggedly defend humanity like the Space Wolves do, nor would they have the reputation of the Space Wolves. The IoM has nothing to gain from losing the Wolves, they really don't. Furthermore, the Space Wolves are one of the most popular and arguably most powerful Chapters in the Imperium.

The gene-seed, whilst a problem, is not something isolated to the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and more all suffer from similar problems and the Blood Angels arguably even more so. The MotW is something the Space Wolves work to control and have REALLY worked to remove all-together, whilst it also isn't obvious to outsiders - who typically either don't know of it, or think of it as a myth brought about by their feral reputation/appearance and Chapters name. Most Chapters have problems with their geneseed, very very few don't. Again, the Space Wolves is clearly a problem, but it can also help and doesn't really concern the Imperium...

Finally, you mention "power and authority of various Imperial organizations"; this power doesn't typically extend to (any) Space Marines. They are autonomous organisations and don't really follow the chain of command within the Imperium itself, like other organisations such as the IG or Ecclisiarchy might. Just look at the Dark Angels for example.

I'm not saying you're wrong or you shouldn't necessarily partake in the discussion/thread, I just feel a lot of your claims are either exaggerated or without sufficient basis in all honesty. The Space Wolves come under a lot of flak (clearly), and IMHO this is often unwarranted or inaccurate...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Huron was a megalomaniac like another famous H-named person was a humanitarian.

Before the Imperium started pulling the defenses he worked so diligently to establish, everything was hunky-dory. It's not even like the guy chose to just say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day because an Inquisitor was mean to him.

Sane, rational folk don't decide to sacrifice planets worth of people so that they can become a daemon-god.

You are majorly underestimating the upside to becoming an immortal daemon-god. Not to mention that sane and rational is not the same thing as ethical and moral.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:The gene-seed, whilst a problem, is not something isolated to the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and more all suffer from similar problems and the Blood Angels arguably even more so. The MotW is something the Space Wolves work to control and have REALLY worked to remove all-together, whilst it also isn't obvious to outsiders - who typically either don't know of it, or think of it as a myth brought about by their feral reputation/appearance and Chapters name. Most Chapters have problems with their geneseed, very very few don't. Again, the Space Wolves is clearly a problem, but it can also help and doesn't really concern the Imperium...

Well, there's problems with the geneseed, and then there's problems with the geneseed. Among the First Founding, the Wolves and Blood Angels both have very serious issues with their geneseed. Not gamebreakers, but the Wulfen Curse and the Red Thirst and Black Rage are decidedly worse than goofy skin color (Salamanders and Raven Guard) or missing giblits (Fists and probably others).

Not nearly enough to get them purged, but I wouldn't call the geneseed issues of the Wolves and BA 'similar' to what other First Founding legions face.

If a decree to do something stupid about the Space Wolves ever came down the pike, I'm sure they'd stick Mutant! in among the charges, but lets face it, in the IoM, there ain't nothing like a good mutant hunt to get the blood flowing.

Lynata wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:As I recall things, accusations of worshipping "Pagan gods" - eg anyone NOT the Emperor, is heresy. [... ]This also amounts to telling the Wolves that the way in which they regard their Primarch and Emperor is wrong, and Astartes regardless of the Chapter do not take well to people belittling their Primarchs and practices.

The Codex didn't say anything like that, though - like Kan, you presume. It is just as likely that they didn't even get a chance to say anything because they were fired upon as soon as they got in range - even more if it really was a ship (see below). Personally, I think contact was made, but in a manner that was neither "properly submissive" (in the ways of the Wolves) nor as arrogant and demanding as you think - the golden medium, so to say. At least I don't have reason to believe otherwise.

You clearly have little experience with religious nutjobs and priests. I'm born and raised in Rome, here those kind of people are everywhere and they act like the own the universe, now I let you imagine how arrogant can be someone that actually does. The ecclesiarchy has no manner to speak ok, they believe they ARE the truth and the rightful, and every other imperial organization can't wait to get rid of them, fact is, they are at war with pretty much all the other HLoT you know. Knowing this kind of people they probably DEMANDED access to their planed and DEMANDED access to the population for holy screening or something. Keep in mind that this has most likely happened while in space when they asked permission to land. You can not simply go where you want and just land, you ask authorization and so forth.

daveNYC wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The gene-seed, whilst a problem, is not something isolated to the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and more all suffer from similar problems and the Blood Angels arguably even more so. The MotW is something the Space Wolves work to control and have REALLY worked to remove all-together, whilst it also isn't obvious to outsiders - who typically either don't know of it, or think of it as a myth brought about by their feral reputation/appearance and Chapters name. Most Chapters have problems with their geneseed, very very few don't. Again, the Space Wolves is clearly a problem, but it can also help and doesn't really concern the Imperium...

Well, there's problems with the geneseed, and then there's problems with the geneseed. Among the First Founding, the Wolves and Blood Angels both have very serious issues with their geneseed. Not gamebreakers, but the Wulfen Curse and the Red Thirst and Black Rage are decidedly worse than goofy skin color (Salamanders and Raven Guard) or missing giblits (Fists and probably others).

Not nearly enough to get them purged, but I wouldn't call the geneseed issues of the Wolves and BA 'similar' to what other First Founding legions face.

If a decree to do something stupid about the Space Wolves ever came down the pike, I'm sure they'd stick Mutant! in among the charges, but lets face it, in the IoM, there ain't nothing like a good mutant hunt to get the blood flowing.

I agree. I admit, I didn't do a good enough job of acknowledge that, but yes I agree, that it's worse than most, although still not purge-worthy...

One thing to also keep in mind is that the Space Wolves' geneseed mutation appears to have been present for 10,000 years with little or no change. It's not something that's steadily gotten worse over millenia, as is the case with the Blood Angels' Red Thirst problems. There's no indication that more and more wulfen mutations are occuring. That doesn't completely innoculate them from any fanatical zealot who might show up on their front doorstep. But it does suggest that those who are in the know in the Imperium have likely been aware of the problem for a very, very, very long time.

It also explains why Space Wolf geneseed doesn't get used to create successor chapters. Is there any other First Founding chapter that's only had one successor? Even the Blood Angels have multiple successors.


So while mutation may likely be an official explanation provided if the Imperium ever decides to purge the Space Wolves, it likely will have little to do with the real reason.

The existance of Salamander successor chapters is iffy, at best. Which is really kind of strange considering that there's really no reason not to want more Salamander type chapters roaming around. The Imperium doesn't seem to have much of a problem creating more emo vampire marine chapters.

Lynata: at this point I don't see much purpose in arguing. It comes down entirely to whether or not the quote means the Wolves killed some Priests or not, as well as whether or not they were offending them (neither the deaths nor the accusations of heresy are actually stated, but one or the other may be implied there.) And without further evidence it can't be resolved on the evidence as is.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if the sons of Russ continue to piss off the Inquisition to the point that one Rogue Inquisitor begins to get a lot of support behind the idea of dealing with them(Excommunication and the like). How far do you think it would progress? Would the Grey Knights be forced to get involved pr would they try to withhold their support?

My opinion: The Space Wolves can defend Fenris pretty well but I think they would definitely need allies which I imagine all the loyal founding chapters would fulfill but then you would have another civil war which would be pretty hard on the IoM. It could get pretty serious but I think the high lords of terra would side against the Inquisition because the conflict has the potential to leave the Imperium even weaker then it initially was after the Horus Heresy.

The simple answer is: it will not happened. HLoT and Inquisition will not allow for a original Legion Chapter to go Excuminate Traitor because some Inquisitor get in argument with them. They are not stupid to lose support of over 1000 Astartes when they need them the most.

Bottom line is: ask yourself this - While Space Wolves have around 1200 Astartes how large force can the big summon ( That include AM, IG, SoB, other Astartes chapters etc... ).

How large a force can the Inquisition summon?

Entire Crusade fleets and armies. Titan legions. Space Marine Chapters. Entire Orders of the Sisters of Battle. The entire populace of worlds as militia forces. The Naval strength of an entire Segmentum. Anyone and everything short of the God-Emperor, Himself.

There is no one and nothing an Inquisitor cannot call upon, either by force of will, personal charisma, long-standing alliances or agreements, or the weight and authority of the rosette.

I don't think it would ever get to that point. They're a founding chapter, and I doubt the inquisution will ever give them more than a slap on the wrist

However. If it did come to that, the SW would be toast :3

What about the war against Angron? Logan swore vows of vengeance that one day will be met after what the Adeptus Administratum did to the people after that fight.


that could easily start a civil war with the wolves. and after all at some point in time Logan will have to live up to his vows.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I don't think it would go anywhere. Space Wolves are a first founding.. EG they descend directly from the Great Crusade, and they have a long history which ties them to the Imperium. While all Chapters are supposed to be equal (in theory) the fact is First Foundings tend to have more power and influence due to history and Imperial Propoganda compared to other Chapters, and the Space Wolves (and Blood angels, and probably the Dark Angels and other first foundings) benefit from this. More than that Logan Grimnar is perhaps one of the more active, influential, and damn kickass Chapter Masters out there - he and the Space Wolves have been heavily involved in a great many of the major conflicts of the 41st Millenium, and they quite likely have built up as much goodwill (and contacts/influence) in the Imperium as they have made enemies (like their close links to House Belisarius.) There's also the politics angle. an Inquisitor's authority, despite being theoretically limitless, is in truth not really so - due to politics, perceptions of strength, standing in the Inquisition, etc. A single Inquisitor of no great fame trying to bring down a First Founding Chapter is probably not going to go well. Hell probably not even a Sector-levle Inquisitor Lord. Someone at the segmentum or higher level? Quite possibly, but I suspect that at that level other matters become important.

I'd also suspect that trying to toss out the Space Wolves would be coming dangerously close to opening the whole "history of the Horus Heresy" can of worms in addiiton to undermining millenia of Imperial Space Marine Propoganda.

Not only that, but is it any coincidence that the SW are based on a world close to the EoT (say, to help protect the IoM)?

TechMarine1 wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:I don't think it would go anywhere. Space Wolves are a first founding.. EG they descend directly from the Great Crusade, and they have a long history which ties them to the Imperium. While all Chapters are supposed to be equal (in theory) the fact is First Foundings tend to have more power and influence due to history and Imperial Propoganda compared to other Chapters, and the Space Wolves (and Blood angels, and probably the Dark Angels and other first foundings) benefit from this. More than that Logan Grimnar is perhaps one of the more active, influential, and damn kickass Chapter Masters out there - he and the Space Wolves have been heavily involved in a great many of the major conflicts of the 41st Millenium, and they quite likely have built up as much goodwill (and contacts/influence) in the Imperium as they have made enemies (like their close links to House Belisarius.) There's also the politics angle. an Inquisitor's authority, despite being theoretically limitless, is in truth not really so - due to politics, perceptions of strength, standing in the Inquisition, etc. A single Inquisitor of no great fame trying to bring down a First Founding Chapter is probably not going to go well. Hell probably not even a Sector-levle Inquisitor Lord. Someone at the segmentum or higher level? Quite possibly, but I suspect that at that level other matters become important.

I'd also suspect that trying to toss out the Space Wolves would be coming dangerously close to opening the whole "history of the Horus Heresy" can of worms in addiiton to undermining millenia of Imperial Space Marine Propoganda.

Not only that, but is it any coincidence that the SW are based on a world close to the EoT (say, to help protect the IoM)?

Kind of. It's a bigger coincidence that Russ's gene seed seems to only like Fenrisians.