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I am starting this thread based off of this one

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403502.page;jsessionid=27DEB4CF47FEC2F2C45F5ED4B200A8C8

I am starting it because I do not believe the original post addresses the root of the issue. No offense is meant in starting this.

I want peoples opinions on the use of NON GW minis/bitz being used to represent unit in GW games. Mainly 40K and Fantasy. There are numerous companies out there now that produce models and bitz that can represent models/units in both games. In 40K this is mostly an Imperial Guard thing for minis, but there are a few models that can be used for other armies. Bitz are mostly for Space Marines, but are growing fast for other armies. In fantasy it is growing faster with minis though, with Mantic doing whole armies and several companies doing character type models.

So that it is clear. I see no problem with this trend. I believe that GW does a decent rules set. I believe the fluff of the universe is the most developed and colorful of any mini based game. DnD has the most developed overall IMO. I even like most of GW's minis. My problem comes with the fact that GW does not have as much variety in minis as the fluff supports. The prices and quality have also suffered lately. These issues have been overly discussed in other threads so I wont go into details here. The other big issue I have is that this hobby is as much a modellers hobby as it is a gaming hobby. GW supported this back in the day with the bitz service and numerous articles in White Dwarf and on the web about converting their models. This has slowly gone away though. They no longer support the modelling aspect of the hobby IMO. The game and painting are supported fully still, but they aren't the total hobby. These other companies recognize this fact and they do support this, now neglected, aspect of the hobby.

I just want to know what people think about this growing trend of using minis AND bitz produced by other companies, whether they be third party producers like Chapterhouse and Maxmini or game producers like Mantic. Are you totally against it? Do you have an issue with them in tournaments? Are you completely for it and want to see more? I think you get the idea.

I think it's hard to come up with a black-and-white answer about this issue. Personally I think using third party bits/models is okay as long as your unit represents what it's supposed to and the third party models you're using to represent them aren't significantly larger/smaller than the official model, both in tournaments and pick-up games. If there isn't any obvious modeling for advantage and I can tell what's equipped with what I'm okay with it.

Because of that it's hard to say you support third party stuff in any and every circumstance, and likewise it's hard to say the opposite because GW leaves gaps in the line and it's impossible to have "official" bits for every upgrade, or even official models for some units.

No problem at all unless the rules of the place say.

N.B. I'm assuming the minis in themselves are suitable so no full frontal nudity and match roughly what they are representing.

I have no problem, why should I? that includes tournaments too. If I was at a tournament, which I don't do, and there were rules I would abide by them of course. But given the choice I would make my army how I want. That's what the hobby is about IMO.

As more and more people look to places like Kromlech and Chapterhouse for the parts that GW won't produce I think that non GW minis are going to appear more and more. It is a long time since GW allowed the modeller a large selection of parts to truely convert their models. If they now can get the bits they want from other companies I'm all for it. I've already played against an IG army that comprised of units of models from Urban Mammoth's old Void range, they did have different looking weapons but all players knew what they were.
I think these non GW armies will become more visible as people look to finding cheaper alternatives, partly because of incessant price rises but sooner or later someone will release an entire range of minis that are better than the GW equivalent army. If the Defiance range passes muster, I can see those Panzer Grenadiers being used as Drop troops for instance.

I agree with Slipstream. I now have a guard army that only uses GW vehicles. My guard are WF trenchcoat guys. GW refusing to make these was a big loss to them. I guess they didn't want to compete with FW DKoK. My ork army will probably grow some thanks to Mantic. I like that the their marauders are smaller than a GW ork. This way I can actually have nobs that are truly larger than a boy. Now I just need a warboss that is larger than a nob. Then I will be set.

Shepherd23 wrote:I agree with Slipstream. I now have a guard army that only uses GW vehicles. My guard are WF trenchcoat guys. GW refusing to make these was a big loss to them. I guess they didn't want to compete with FW DKoK. My ork army will probably grow some thanks to Mantic. I like that the their marauders are smaller than a GW ork. This way I can actually have nobs that are truly larger than a boy. Now I just need a warboss that is larger than a nob. Then I will be set.

LOL, I am literally in the same boat. My transports and tanks, and a couple of HQ options are GW minis. Everything is Wargames Factory's Greatcoat troopers, which I have recently expanded in the form of the Heavy Weapons teams.

I voted that non-GW are ok, so long as it's not a tourney, as I have yet to hear of any tournament that was ok with running a 40k tourney, and allowed non-GW modeled armies. Although, if an army had less than a dozen or so non GW minis in it (ie. a single HQ, or a model represented by non GW stuff because GW hasn't made the model), I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed in tourneys. I also dislike how GW will not allow you to field a flyrant that has been converted from the Balrog wings and Tyrant kit.

All my warhammer figures are Citadel, i dont have a problem with people using any sort of miniture as long as you can tell what it is,
more variation is good in my book.

As long as models are WYSIWYG, I don't have a problem with them. There will always be some tourneys that won't allow that sort of thing though, so that is something to keep in mind.

They no longer support the modelling aspect of the hobby IMO. The game and painting are supported fully still, but they aren't the total hobby. These other companies recognize this fact and they do support this, now neglected, aspect of the hobby.

This.

From the company that taught you how to make vehicles out of card stock, they have no leg to stand on, telling people what and not what to do.

I want people to do what they want when it comes to thier armies, otherwise, just cast all the same models in different color plastic and call it a day.

I have Scibor-sculpted Inquisitors and Henchmen. I have Micro-Art Studio Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii and Praetorian-Class Servitors. I have Ex Illis-made Imperial Preachers.

There's nothing wrong with non-GW models as long as it's obvious what they're meant to be. If you're taking some Mantic Elf Dragon riders and trying to pass them off as a Land Raider, that might be a problem.

The only time non-GW parts are inapropriate are in a GW store or GW run-and-financed tournament. For that one instance, GW-only makes perfect sense - after all, they are trying to drum up PR and business for themselves.

For every other instance, non-GW parts are fine so long at it is clear what each unit is. It doesn't have to match GW standards; it simply cannot be confusing with something else.

Vulcan wrote:The only time non-GW parts are inapropriate are in a GW store or GW run-and-financed tournament. For that one instance, GW-only makes perfect sense - after all, they are trying to drum up PR and business for themselves.

For every other instance, non-GW parts are fine so long at it is clear what each unit is. It doesn't have to match GW standards; it simply cannot be confusing with something else.

Yes they do have that option, however if you got people who are long time customers who regularly buy items from GW to Scratch built units with other 3rd party aspects, this is called a conversion and the general rule of thumb is 75% GW parts.

When the time comes that they enforce policy of using non GW parts in their store is the day when they lose an important customer base. The seasoned veterans are the one's that are promoting the game in my region anyhow due to the lack of staff available.

I agree that the hobby and conversions have sort of gone by the way side. White Dwarf used to do whole articles about it every month called conversions. I think in the beginning it was a group of guys making a game to have fun and they wanted the people who were playing it to have fun and so they said, convert away. I think as things become bigger and dollar signs or pound signs are flashing in front of your eyes, you lose sight of why you did something and it becomes a whole other beast. Not to say that GW is not entitled, since they made the game in the first place. With tournements, I think their has to be some regualtion to keep things as "fair" as they can be, in which case I can see why they would not allow GW models, the only exceptions I see in this are for models that GW does not produce, but they are in the codex. It is a bit of a grey zone... hard to really side as there are points on both sides of the argument.

I think you'll find the players aren't the issue for this sort of thing, as much as the GWS owned shops that understandably are. Mom's house mom's rules. Personally, I think this is a little short sighted - is a person who spends $200 a month in your store, but has some pig iron heads really a bad customer?.... but if you can't bring in outside food to the movies, you can't bring in Maxmini models to the GWS. Fair enough.

For me, I don't care what models you use so long as some effort was made not to insult me and the hobby. Using nickels for terminators and coke cans for carnifexes is insulting, using assembled and based minis from any manufacturer on the planet is not. My personal only exceptions to "anything goes otherwise" are this:

1.) I don't care what you proxy for drop pods. Red plastic cups, pickle jars, whatever are fine with me. Those models suck and serve no purpose other then being expensive placeholders. Just, like, spraypaint them black or something.

2.) If we're playing in a tournament, which I don't, but if we were, your proxies must have the correct measurements. No Baneblade size Rhinos or Rhino size Baneblades no matter how cool looking or well executed.

I voted no problem at all. You can spend your money any way you see fit to enjoy our hobby. My only exception is that GW only wants GW stuff in their stores. I respect their decision and it's one of the reasons I exercise my right to game elsewhere.

3000 points worth of Mantic Elves or Dwarves? Go for it. It's understandable if a GW sponsored tournament with GW provided prizes does not want to have other companies minis, but if that's the case I'm just not going to play in such a tourney.

Interestingly, most companies have a 'only our minis' policy in regards to their official tourneys and such. Privateer doesn't mind outside bits (keep in mind, if you want a based model it is in fact almost inevitable that you use outside material on the model) but at least 50% of the model must be the base model that you are converting from. I'm not sure what Wyrd's policy is, but I believe it is something similar.

The big difference of course is that most other companies actually provide all of the models that they publish rules for.

RuneGrey wrote:The big difference of course is that most other companies actually provide all of the models that they publish rules for.

This, I believe, is one of the biggest problems with GW. They do not produce all of the models that are in a codex, unless you play marines. And even then you do not even get all the options (conversion Beamer, librarian on a bike, etc.) The third party guys are filling a void that GW has left for whatever reason and I am very happy for that.

Playing IGuard means that I must go to 3rd party companies to get the tanks that GW doesn't produce yet. I have been very happy with the products I have gotten and I still get to play the army I actually want to play instead of compromising and playing a list that isn't as competitive or what I want because GW hasn't produced the models I need. I know some people are going to think that I should just go to FW for tanks, but the price and quality isn't something I am willing to contend with. What FW I do own has required a significant amount of labor to make usable. I have yet to purchase a 3rd party item that requires this amount of work. My bombard was ready for paint in about an hour. Same with my Hydras. My FW basalisk kit required at least 5 hours of bending, cutting, flash removing, shaving resin for the fit to be proper. I am happy with the results, but as I said, the price to labor ratio just isn't worth it when I know I can get better. More often cheaper as well.

Agreed, my OP was bad, I was going to lock it and make another, as it was made off my iPod and wasn't that great. But, I am sure this will suffice instead.

So long as the model clearly represents what it is supposed to be, why should who made it make a difference?

I agree completely. Now tell that to the event organizers at the various tournaments around the world.

GW owns the game. Not the hobby.

If GW is doing nothing for your game (and this includes a lot of competitions), that is no problem.

Not only GW dont make models for all their codex, they dont make codex for everything you can find in fluff. Space Pirates, Traitor Imperial Guard, Grots Rebelion, Genestealer Cults, Squats...

I voted no problem at all.

As long as I can see what they are and guess (or get a good answer when I ask - not many guard players in my area that I am aware of) I have no issues at all.

Rule of Cool kicks in here. I, and I think many people, are a lot less likely to complain about a well-executed and clear converted army as compared to just throwing down bunch of minis in a way that is unclear in play and/or just poorly done.

If it looks good, and I can tell what it represents, then Im more than happy to play against it.

Balance wrote:Rule of Cool kicks in here. I, and I think many people, are a lot less likely to complain about a well-executed and clear converted army as compared to just throwing down bunch of minis in a way that is unclear in play and/or just poorly done.

I could not agree with this more. If anything, use of non-GW parts, creative conversions and the like, means it is more probable that you will have people queuing up to play you come games night (unless you are an arse-hole).

I like the rule of cool. It is what got my speed freak list a best theme award because every model was converted. Then the new codex came out and screwed me.

I do think that this is the reason that so many third party companies are doing so well. Making the army personal really does increase the cool factor alot. I think this is why I love orks and Iguard so much. I can do so much to make them unique.

You need to separate bitz and minis. Using a whole mini from another company is like giving Games Workshop the run-around, which is kind of shysty when you're playing their game. Using bitz (as in less than fifty percent of the finished product) from a third party is fine and dandy. That's just a conversion, no harm, no foul.

Jimsolo wrote:You need to separate bitz and minis. Using a whole mini from another company is like giving Games Workshop the run-around, which is kind of shysty when you're playing their game.

One (presumably) pays for the rulebook. That is all that someone needs to do, in my opinion, to be officially "playing 40k". The creative part of the hobby (and by this I mean "miniature wargaming", not the marketing-driven concept of "the GW hobby") is about putting your own personal touches into something that you spend a lot of time doing.

I think an OS analogy is suitable here: just because one is using Windows, a user is still able to run non-Microsoft applications even in situations where there is an MS option available (MS Office vs OpenOffice, for instance). Even though 40k is a rather restrictive "platform" in that your army choices are rather artificially constrained (to encourage the purchase of new miniatures) there is no reason, other than buying in to the ridiculous concept of "the GW hobby" that one should limit themselves to only using their miniatures.

Jimsolo wrote:You need to separate bitz and minis. Using a whole mini from another company is like giving Games Workshop the run-around, which is kind of shysty when you're playing their game. Using bitz (as in less than fifty percent of the finished product) from a third party is fine and dandy. That's just a conversion, no harm, no foul.

I disagree completely. Is it shysty if I sculpt a mini myself to us as my HQ? I didn't buy my green stuff from GW so no part of that model is purchased from them at all, but I can guarantee that anywhere I go will allow me to use it because it is hand made. Even if I have to explain what it is, I am still safe because I had the skill to sculpt it. Now consider the kid who cannot sculpt for crap, but can convert stuff or even really adores that latest model Random Generic Mini Company, Llc. Is he a shysty guy because he hates that GW uses skulls to make baby cribs and wanted his Random Army HQ to be different?

This, I believe, is one of the biggest problems with this hobby. GW has fostered this attitude that if they didn't make then it doesn't count. It's our game and if you don't play the way we say then you are being a meeny! I think that if Chapterhouse wins this lawsuit it will go a long way to correct this issue. And come to think of it, I cannot think of a single incident where someone called me on using Russian infantry made by Peter Pig for my FOW army. Is there really any difference from this issue?