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How do the Psychic pups work again? I am under the impression that the SW were anti-psy, and I know they have their Rune Priests, but how do they work if not with the Warp?

CpatTom wrote: I am under the impression that the SW were anti-psy

Not quite, they're anti-going too far with psychics. They define a clear limit and do not exceed that.

CpatTom wrote: and I know they have their Rune Priests, but how do they work if not with the Warp?

They are psykers; they work exactly the same.

The SW were anti-Thousand Sons and perfectly at ease with their own psyker traditions. I don't know that they were necessarily anti-psyker. But Russ certainly sensed, even if he didn't fully understand at first, the threat of Magnus's arrogance regarding sorcery. Like any apex predator, Russ knew to trust his instincts and pushed for an end to any legitimate role of psykers in the Legions. Whether or not he understood his runepriests to be Librarians in the sense of the Council of Nikaea ... who really knows?

From our IRL perspective, this seems like hypocritical snobbery at best or treacherous prejudice at worst. But the Space Wolves had a good reason to trust themselves: seemingly, they were made by the Emperor to take out other Legions in the event of rebellion.

K, didn't know if there was some sort of Wolf Warp the pups drew there power from. Which sounds ridiculous, but ya know, SW.

I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

ATTEMPTED THREAD HI-JACK!!! LAUNCH EXTERMINATUS!!!

but the SW have super special snow flake powers apparently, but in reality (40k reality), they just get their doombolts from the same place....

bombboy1252 wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

ATTEMPTED THREAD HI-JACK!!! LAUNCH EXTERMINATUS!!!

but the SW have super special snow flake powers apparently, but in reality (40k reality), they just get their doombolts from the same place....

That was some impressive thread hijack response systems. I wonder if i can get it for my car.

Russ and the Space Wolves are deluded enough to believe that their Rune Priests don't, in fact, use the Warp. That they use the "natural life and death cycles of Fenris." This is bull of course, they use the Warp like any other psyker.

It's delusion and hypocrisy. Nothing more.

Stupid dogs.

@V__D: Source?

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

It's not covered explicitly in the dex or, to my limited knowledge, in the BL novels (I haven't read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Helsreach, for example) but it could very well be that BT simply do not train recruits with psychic potential -- excepting of course training them to suppress it, which is likely a key part of their entire pseudo-religious doctrine.

Manchu wrote:@V__D: Source?

A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris, Ahriman proves this wrong, as does Magnus. It's hypocrisy born of ignorance.

IIRC the best fluff i have seen surrounding the Council of Nikea and related events is that the Council banned sorcery which is what the SW opposed.
Though i haven't seen that in a long time... was way better though.

Going by the old fluff for the Black Ships and Scholastica Psykana, the psychic initiates who will become librarians are gathered from those psykers of the correct age and potential among the Black Ships' cargo, who are then distributed among the chapters of the Astartes. This would makes sense, since the incidence of psychic powers (supposedly one in a million) would otherwise be much too low to supply a chapter (particularly given that the seemingly most common recruiting worlds are sparsely-populated feral worlds). So presumably the Black Templars just don't request any psychic candidates, and dispatch any latent psychics they do find to the Inquisition.

iproxtaco wrote:They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris ...

Wait, let's put this into context. IIRC this comes from Russ defining the difference between RunePriests (psykers) and Sorcerers. The problem is that Magnus's Legion weren't just psykers -- they were nascent Chaos Sorcerers. Yes, the ultimate source of all psychic power is the interaction of the Warp with real space. But psyker-potential, so far as we know, is a naturally-occurring mutation among human beings whereas the Thousand Sons' abilities are more "proactive" (esoteric) in their origin and development. It's kind of lame to say that Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns show that the Wolves' and the Thousand Sons' psykers are the same when clearly those books include characters from both camps that use their powers in totally different ways. In any case, OP's question was whether the SW are anti-psyker and the answer is obviously no.

Manchu wrote:In any case, OP's question was whether the SW are anti-psyker and the answer is obviously no.

No, it isn't.

A Thousand Sons makes the case that Wyrdmake or whatever his name was genuinely believed he didn't draw his powers from the Warp.

iproxtaco wrote:
A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris, Ahriman proves this wrong, as does Magnus. It's hypocrisy born of ignorance.

It is not hypocrisy. The Thousand Sons powers come from daemons, it always has. That's what the Wolves found upsetting.

Seaward wrote:A Thousand Sons makes the case that Wyrdmake or whatever his name was genuinely believed he didn't draw his powers from the Warp.

I didn't get that from reading Thousand Sons at all. Rather:

DarknessEternal wrote:The Thousand Sons powers come from daemons, it always has. That's what the Wolves found upsetting.

DarknessEternal has it right: the issue isn't psychic ability itself but rather how you use it. I don't know why this issue is so difficult. It is obvious that some kinds of psychic power involves collusion with the Warp Gods (Chaos worship/sorcery) and some does not (what Space Marine Librarians do, first among them the Grey Knights). The Wolves are against the former and superstitious about the latter, naturally preferring their own traditions and understanding over that of other Space Marines.

Manchu wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris ...

Wait, let's put this into context. IIRC this comes from Russ defining the difference between RunePriests (psykers) and Sorcerers. The problem is that Magnus's Legion weren't just psykers -- they were nascent Chaos Sorcerers.

Except AFAIK, there's never been any clear definition of what the difference is between a plain psyker and a sorcerer. Outside of the obvious (using the entrails of a thousand orphans to summon a bloodthirster, or whatever) it's really more of a 'I'll know it when I see it' sort of thing. It's like the difference between scientist and mad scientist. On the one hand you have Edison, on the other you have Frankenstein, but where on that continuum would you put Tesla?

And calling all the 1k Sons nascent Chaos Sorcerers doesn't work. That's basically saying that there was something fundimentally different about them that would lead them to be damned regardless of what they or Magnus did. It also implies that there isn't just a difference between psyker powers and sorcery, but that there is a difference between the actual psyker and sorcerer (not just their powers, or how they get them). Would you go so far as to say that there was something fundimentally different about every Librarian (by whatever name they're called) that ever fell to Chaos?

there's never been any clear definition of what the difference is between a plain psyker and a sorcerer

Of course there is a difference. Psykers are mutants trained to deal with the powers they naturally manifest. Chaos sorcerers may have natural talent resulting from mutation but derive further power from dealing with the Ruinous Powers, a la Magnus. It's an incredibly clear and fundamental distinction -- ask a Grey Knight.

Manchu wrote:

Seaward wrote:A Thousand Sons makes the case that Wyrdmake or whatever his name was genuinely believed he didn't draw his powers from the Warp.

I didn't get that from reading Thousand Sons at all

Read the part where Ahriman meets Wyrdmake on Prospero at the end of the book, Wyrdmakes speech during Nikea, and Russ's conversations with Magnus before or after they fight on that planet with the Word Bearers.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Thousand Sons powers come from daemons, it always has. That's what the Wolves found upsetting.

DarknessEternal has it right: the issue isn't psychic ability itself but rather how you use it. I don't know why this issue is so difficult. It is obvious that some kinds of psychic power involves collusion with the Warp Gods (Chaos worship/sorcery) and some does not (what Space Marine Librarians do, first among them the Grey Knights). The Wolves are against the former and superstitious about the latter, naturally preferring their own traditions and understanding over that of other Space Marines.

The Space Wolves had no idea the Thousand Sons were using familiars, although their Tutularies weren't the source of their power, most were natural born psykers with a horrid gene seed flaw, it was their Primarch that lead them down the road of sorcery. All the Sons were arrogant, Magnus himself believed he was the master of the Warp, that Tzeentch was but an entity he did not need to fear. It's plainly obvious that the Sons went too far in their quest for power, but the Space Wolves had no real idea of how far they had gone. They saw their use of sorcery on that random planet, and immediately thought it was wrong, and due to their ignorance spoke out against all use of psychic powers, hence why there were no more Librarians after Nikea, in any Legion.

iproxtaco wrote:Read the part where Ahriman meets Wyrdmake on Prospero at the end of the book, Wyrdmakes speech during Nikea, and Russ's conversations with Magnus before or after they fight on that planet with the Word Bearers.

Wait, I know the parts. I disagree with the interpretation.

All the Sons were arrogant, Magnus himself believed he was the master of the Warp, that Tzeentch was but an entity he did not need to fear. It's plainly obvious that the Sons went too far in their quest for power, but the Space Wolves had no real idea of how far they had gone.

We are in total agreement on this point. I could not have put it better myself.

They saw their use of sorcery on that random planet, and immediately thought it was wrong, and due to their ignorance spoke out against all use of psychic powers, hence why there were no more Librarians after Nikea, in any Legion.

We don't yet know the full story, for example regarding the Wolves using psychic powers (even defenses) on Prospero. My own take on the issue is that Russ trusted his instincts and he was right to do it. It's a great irony: Magnus was obsessed with precognition and yet considered Russ to be a barbarian. Magnus's visions of the future were detailed and accurate but ultimately he failed to understand what they truly betokened and they caused his downfall. Russ's instincts, by contrast, were vague and based on superstitions -- and yet he was right, even if (as you pointed out) he could not know for sure in an objective sense. Russ's wisdom is NATURAL intuition whereas Magnus relied on his prideful "mastery" of sorcery-science.


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Also, it's a bit silly for anyone to say the SW were simply stupid regarding this kind of thing. After all, at this time almost no one really knew about daemons. Only the Emperor knew about and to some shadowy extent Magnus guessed about and underestimated the Ruinous Powers and their minions. Again, if anything, the SW should be commended for being wise enough to sense the difference between what their rune priests were doing and what sorcerers like the Thousand Sons were up to.

On the anti psycher front, I might mention that on the table top SW have more anti-psycher ability than most other armies.

They can get 4 rune priests, that gives you 4 runic weapons for much larger anti-psychic bubble, they also can have runic armor and wolf tail talismans that gives a 5+ save vs psychic attacks. So in that regard they are quite anti-psycher.

Also you many believe that magic doesn't exist. You may even have concrete evidence that magic does not exist. But you will never convince a New Orleans Houngan that his Voodoo is fake or the Aborigines of Australia that their Shamanistic beliefs dont run true. That is not Hippocracy on their part, that is faith. If the Wolves truly believe that their power does not come from the warp then no matter what evidence you present, in their mind and their beliefs it still doesn't come from the warp.

Manchu wrote:

there's never been any clear definition of what the difference is between a plain psyker and a sorcerer

Of course there is a difference. Psykers are mutants trained to deal with the powers they naturally manifest. Chaos sorcerers may have natural talent resulting from mutation but derive further power from dealing with the Ruinous Powers, a la Magnus. It's an incredibly clear and fundamental distinction -- ask a Grey Knight.

Except during time period of the Thousand Sons novel, there's no indication that Magnus has done any deal to increase his power. The only deal with the devil he entered into was to stabilize the geneseed of the legion. And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line. Magnus' use of thralls to feed the ritual when he attempts to talk Horus off the cliff would seem to be a pretty obvious use of sorcery, but there's nothing involving warp entities there. And on the other hand, Magnus' attempt to contact Terra, while relying on the 'assistance' of a warp entity, did not involve anything that would seem like sorcery, just Magnus' raw power.

Oy, don't bring the Grey Knights into this. With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK. Blood rituals, daemon weapons, they even have daemonhosts as a usable unit. Yeah, per-fluff they're able to get away with it, but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

SW don't work like orks, however. Just believing something doesn't make it true for the Pups. The issue is not so much whether SW are anti-Warp or anti-psyker. They employ Warp-faring vessels, navigators, and astropaths like everybody else, for example. The issue is that they intuited something wrong with what Magnus and his Legion were doing regarding the Warp. Their word for it, soon enough to be the word that the Thousand Sons would themselves proudly use -- was sorcery. Yeah, the Space Wolves were barbaric and superstitious -- believing in magic and daemons and all that garbage. But in 40k, the worst part of your superstitious beliefs turn out to be true.


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Except during time period of the Thousand Sons novel, there's no indication that Magnus has done any deal to increase his power.

Actually, yes there is. His Legion was on the brink of destruction and it is heavily implied that he made a deal with Tzeentch to stabilize their mutations and save the Legion.

And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line.

What?


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With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK.

There is a difference between what is actually in the GK codex and the way that people on the internet committed to hating Mat Ward have read it.


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but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

You are 100% incorrect. I don't see GK using daemonic tutelaries, for example. Just because two guys can both shoot lightning out of their fingers doesn't mean they're both Chaos-worshiping sorcerers.

It's not heavily implied. He actually did make deal with Tzeentch, although he had no idea it was a Chaos God. This entity would save his sons in exchange for one of Magnus's eyes. Like we agreed, Magnus was arrogant beyond belief, he thought he was the master of the pact. He gave up his eye, but had no idea he had basically damned him and his Legion.

In this case, we can presume guilt. If you are too arrogant to understand that what you're doing is wrong, it does not make you less culpable for your wrong-doing. Like I said, all the more praise to Leman Russ for figuring out what was going on without having even close to all the pieces.

Manchu wrote:SW don't work like orks, however. Just believing something doesn't make it true for the Pups. The issue is not so much whether SW are anti-Warp or anti-psyker. They employ Warp-faring vessels, navigators, and astropaths like everybody else, for example. The issue is that they intuited something wrong with what Magnus and his Legion were doing regarding the Warp. Their word for it, soon enough to be the word that the Thousand Sons would themselves proudly use -- was sorcery. Yeah, the Space Wolves were barbaric and superstitious -- believing in magic and daemons and all that garbage. But in 40k, the worst part of your superstitious beliefs turn out to be true.

Which I think is a very good point, but it still doesn't explain away the fact that the Space Wolves did not think they used the Warp as the source of their power. They were very much correct when they sensed something was wrong with the Thousand Sons, but even Russ himself says his Rune Priests are fueled by the natural cycle of Fenris.

And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line.

What?

I agree, what? Dealing with the Dark Gods, whatever your intentions were, is long down the path to damnation. You know how the saying goes, it applies perfectly in this situation.

With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK.

There is a difference between what is actually in the GK codex and the way that people on the internet committed to hating Mat Ward have read it.

Again, agreed, what the Grey Knights do is effectively the opposite of what Sorcerers do. You may say the age-old saying applies again, but Grey Knights are proof against these temptations.

but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

You are 100% incorrect. I don't see GK using daemonic tutelaries, for example. Just because two guys can both shoot lightning out of their fingers doesn't mean they're both Chaos-worshiping sorcerers.

Once more, agreed.

... it still doesn't explain away the fact that the Space Wolves did not think they used the Warp as the source of their power.

I'm not saying that SW weren't ignorant by objective standards but they also weren't stupid. Some people explain things with formulae and other people use rituals. The SW are in the weird position of using advanced technology from the perspective of rustic shamans. Oddly enough, this is eventually how the entire Imperium would come to be. In any case, their explanations may not be mathematical but they do seem effective -- which is good enough for a SW. If the point was that anything to do with the Warp was evil beyond redemptive use then the SW would be stuck on Fenris. I understood Wyrdmake's and Russ's point to be "what we do is NOT what Magnus and the Thousand Sons do" and not a technical debate on the nature and existence of psychic powers, which is "beyond" them, i.e., they don't look at things that way.

Dealing with the Dark Gods, whatever your intentions were, is long down the path to damnation.

Yep -- which is what makes the Emperor such a disturbing figure and that, in turn, makes Magnus all the more arrogant/tragic.

Manchu wrote:SW don't work like orks, however. Just believing something doesn't make it true for the Pups. The issue is not so much whether SW are anti-Warp or anti-psyker. They employ Warp-faring vessels, navigators, and astropaths like everybody else, for example. The issue is that they intuited something wrong with what Magnus and his Legion were doing regarding the Warp. Their word for it, soon enough to be the word that the Thousand Sons would themselves proudly use -- was sorcery. Yeah, the Space Wolves were barbaric and superstitious -- believing in magic and daemons and all that garbage. But in 40k, the worst part of your superstitious beliefs turn out to be true.


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Except during time period of the Thousand Sons novel, there's no indication that Magnus has done any deal to increase his power.

Actually, yes there is. His Legion was on the brink of destruction and it is heavily implied that he made a deal with Tzeentch to stabilize their mutations and save the Legion.

And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line.

What?

Exactly that. There is nothing that says that All Sorcerers Do X. Certain things are obviously sorcery, and daemonic pacts would be one of them, but there's nothing that says that All Sorcerers Do Daemonic Pacts. Plus, Magnus' deal was to stabilize his legion, not to increase his power. Which would mean that under your definition of sorcery (that you're using daemons to increase your power) he wasn't using sorcery.

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With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK.

There is a difference between what is actually in the GK codex and the way that people on the internet committed to hating Mat Ward have read it.


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but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

You are 100% incorrect. I don't see GK using daemonic tutelaries, for example. Just because two guys can both shoot lightning out of their fingers doesn't mean they're both Chaos-worshiping sorcerers.

Good point, the Sons have tutelaries, the GKs have living human beings that have been posessed by daemons, It's a unit. With rules and everything. And daemon weapons. And the one chapter master dude who is followed around by the warp ghosts of his team. And then there's the fluff where they killed a bunch of SoB to use their blood in a protection ritual. Seriously, the new GK stuff would have the Ordo Mallus all over them, if they weren't already working for the Ordo of course. That's fine, they're doing that whole 'using Chaos against Chaos' bit. It's a cool schtick, though it'd work a bit better as a story if there were actually some small chance of a Grey Knight falling. I mean the whole point of Chaos is that it is that corrupting and dangerous, so to have one chapter that can ride that tiger and never fall off does weaken things. But... the Grey Knights' army options are firmly in the Radical Unto the Point of Heresy camp.

I think my main point though is that you're definition of Sorcery is a rather limited one. By limiting sorcery to using daemonic pacts to boost an individual's power, you're leaving out acts that IMO are just as far over the line into sorcery, yet don't involve signing away one's soul. Plus, you're setting things up so that 'normal' psyker powers can be considered 'pure' (though risky).

ETA: Quote Tags, how do they work?

History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway. Their use of the Warp has become the standard, and the Thousand Son's daemonic pacts are clearly understood to be a terrible idea.