Psychic Space Wolves

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**Brother Ramses**

One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I need to check my books, but did not Magnus have a vision at the council about Horus and that was why he had to hurry back to his home planet at the end? Why not just tell the Emperor then about his vision while at Nikea?

**iproxtaco**

He had a vision yes, but he had no real idea what it meant until returning to Prospero. When he finally understood it was too late, Horus was already in the temple, there would have been no time, so, he tried to stop it, and failed. The only way to warn the Emperor in a speedy fashion was to use the Warp, but he obviously had a duel motive by doing it.

**daveNYC**

Brother Ramses wrote:One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I think you're conflating disobedient and traitorous. The people of Fenris are not even close to being in compliance regarding the Imperial Truth, but nobody goes around calling the Space Wolves traitors for keeping them that way. Guilliman spent a good chunk of the Heresy doing mock battles in order to research and test the codex (and not trying to rush to Terra to help the Emperor), but calling him a traitor is a bit of a stretch too. Even Lorgar's search for true gods wasn't necessarily traitorous, at least until he threw his lot in with them. Though if his plan was to search for gods and if he found them throw his lot in with them, even the search for them would be a tratorous act.

**Omegus**

daveNYC wrote:
It didn't do Malcador any favors, but the Emperor was able to use the Golden Throne to keep the web gate closed without any obvious ill effects. It's likely that Magnus would have been able to handle the strain, or perhaps they could have combined their powers to put a more permanant seal on the gate, thus freeing up both Magnus and the Emperor to be able to head out and boot head during the siege of Terra.

This hypothesis that the Wolves are so full of awesomesauce that they're the Emperor's special Executioner legion is just goofy.
For starters, there's zero evidence that any single legion is straight up better than any other legion. Better in specific settings or with certain abilities, but not in every area.
Second, if the Emperor was so worried about a legion going bad that he did create an Executioner legion, then what exactly would prevent that legion from turning? And if he did some mojo to prevent that legion from turning, why not apply that change to other legions so as to prevent them from turning.
Third, even if the Executioner legion was so hard that they could out mangle any other astartes two to one, that still means that any battle against another legion would still be a meat grinder. Under ideal conditions, you'd still be looking at anywhere between five and twenty thousand dead Executioner astartes, depending on the size of the legion to be put down. Look at Prospero where the Wolves faced no orbital defenses, were able to make their initial landing relatively unharmed, showed up with specialized troops (Sisters of Silence) to counter the Sons' specific strength, did not have to deal with the opposing Primarch until the end of the battle, and even then they still took serious losses. Any legion designed to be used specifically against other astartes would be good for only one use, after that the loss of manpower would need decades, if not centuries to get back up to full manpower, and since the Wolves only recruit from Fenris (a low population world) that process would be very slow.
Fourth, if all that is needed for an Executioner legion is the ability to follow orders, no matter how twisted they are, and to do whatever it takes to complete said orders, then pretty much any legion would be able to do the job. Heck, the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson, that's pretty hard core right there, and it's not like any other legion seemed to have issues following orders (at least when it came to killing something). I know ADB wrote some pretty words about why the World Eaters and Night Lords wouldn't be right for the job (mostly had to do with attitude and visibility), but I think he missed one key point. Nobody is allowed to talk about what happened to the two other legions, at that point, it doesn't matter who does the deed, or even how they did it. All that matters is that the offending legion is dead. Nobody (other than some Primarchs) are going around talking about what happened to the two legions.

But...but...they're special snowflakes...they don't need your logic, they're that awesome.

**Durza**

Actually, there is evidence that one legion is better than the others... if you listen to Matt Ward.

**Omegus**

Brother Ramses wrote:One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I need to check my books, but did not Magnus have a vision at the council about Horus and that was why he had to hurry back to his home planet at the end? Why not just tell the Emperor then about his vision while at Nikea?

You should indeed check your books, because you are 100% wrong on every single count.

Magnus explicitly ordered his Legion to obey the Emperor's decree. Even he abstained from using his powers, except until after they had returned to Prospero and he had his captains do a bunch of research to confirm the daemon's warning/taunts about Horus. The ritual he undertook to try and save Horus was the first time any of the Thousand Sons were involved in something actually resembling sorcery, since a number of them spoke out against it, saying it "smacks of unclean spirit worship". When that attempt failed, Ahriman likewise argued against the spell Magnus used to travel to Terra.

As for why he just didn't tell the Emperor at Nikea, there were several reasons:

1. The Emperor is not the most approachable guy.
2. The Emperor had already departed.
3. Magnus didn't have a vision, so much as a visitation from the Warp, and he didn't quite trust what he heard until he did his own research into the matter.
4. Magnus and his Legion were just publicly chastised for their psychic powers, making it not quite an ideal time to fly up to the Emperor's barge and tell him a daemon just told you his favorite son was going to turn traitor.

As Magnus said, "“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

**daveNYC**

Omegus wrote:
daveNYC wrote:
It didn't do Malcador any favors, but the Emperor was able to use the Golden Throne to keep the web gate closed without any obvious ill effects. It's likely that Magnus would have been able to handle the strain, or perhaps they could have combined their powers to put a more permanant seal on the gate, thus freeing up both Magnus and the Emperor to be able to head out and boot head during the siege of Terra.

This hypothesis that the Wolves are so full of awesomesauce that they're the Emperor's special Executioner legion is just goofy.
For starters, there's zero evidence that any single legion is straight up better than any other legion. Better in specific settings or with certain abilities, but not in every area.
Second, if the Emperor was so worried about a legion going bad that he did create an Executioner legion, then what exactly would prevent that legion from turning? And if he did some mojo to prevent that legion from turning, why not apply that change to other legions so as to prevent them from turning.
Third, even if the Executioner legion was so hard that they could out mangle any other astartes two to one, that still means that any battle against another legion would still be a meat grinder. Under ideal conditions, you'd still be looking at anywhere between five and twenty thousand dead Executioner astartes, depending on the size of the legion to be put down. Look at Prospero where the Wolves faced no orbital defenses, were able to make their initial landing relatively unharmed, showed up with specialized troops (Sisters of Silence) to counter the Sons' specific strength, did not have to deal with the opposing Primarch until the end of the battle, and even then they still took serious losses. Any legion designed to be used specifically against other astartes would be good for only one use, after that the loss of manpower would need decades, if not centuries to get back up to full manpower, and since the Wolves only recruit from Fenris (a low population world) that process would be very slow.
Fourth, if all that is needed for an Executioner legion is the ability to follow orders, no matter how twisted they are, and to do whatever it takes to complete said orders, then pretty much any legion would be able to do the job. Heck, the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson, that's pretty hard core right there, and it's not like any other legion seemed to have issues following orders (at least when it came to killing something). I know ADB wrote some pretty words about why the World Eaters and Night Lords wouldn't be right for the job (mostly had to do with attitude and visibility), but I think he missed one key point. Nobody is allowed to talk about what happened to the two other legions, at that point, it doesn't matter who does the deed, or even how they did it. All that matters is that the offending legion is dead. Nobody (other than some Primarchs) are going around talking about what happened to the two legions.

But...but...they're special snowflakes...they don't need your logic, they're that awesome.

Eh, I might even be OK with having them being Executioners, if, and it's a big if, there were actually some sort of downside that came along with it (and Russ being emo about having such a heavy burden to bear does NOT count). The problem I have with the current state of Space Wolf fluff (combined 30k and 40k) and crunch is that not only do they not have any weaknesses (lets face it, most Space Marine legions started out as borderline Mary Sues), but elements of fluff that should be weaknesses actually end up turning into strengths in either fluff or crunch.

**DarknessEternal**

Omegus wrote:The ritual he undertook to try and save Horus was the first time any of the Thousand Sons were involved in something actually resembling sorcery,

Does Magnus' pact with Tzeentch and every Thousand Son having a daemonic familiar not count for sorcery?

Omegus wrote:
As for why he just didn't tell the Emperor at Nikea, there were several reasons:

1. The Emperor is not the most approachable guy.
2. The Emperor had already departed.
3. Magnus didn't have a vision, so much as a visitation from the Warp, and he didn't quite trust what he heard until he did his own research into the matter.
4. Magnus and his Legion were just publicly chastised for their psychic powers, making it not quite an ideal time to fly up to the Emperor's barge and tell him a daemon just told you his favorite son was going to turn traitor.

5. Like the Emperor, in his mind, Magnus is always 100% right about everything and never has the potential for mistake.

**daveNYC**

Actually your #5 would be supportive of Magnus chasing after the Emperor right there and then. If Magnus thinks he's 100% right, then the next logical step would be to go to the Emperor. If Magnus having doubts about the accuracy of the vision would better explain taking some time on Prospero to sort things out.

Was it every Son that had a tutelary? Thought those were limited to those who passed some level of power.

**Omegus**

I was talking about the Legion, not Magnus, he's been doing whatever the hell he wanted in the Warp since he was a child.

Only a few of the highest-ranking members of the Thousand Sons had familiars, which is really no more sorcerous or heretical than the fetishes Space Wolves festoon themselves with or the spirit bonds they form with various animals and quasi-animals.

**DarknessEternal**

Omegus wrote:
Only a few of the highest-ranking members of the Thousand Sons had familiars, which is really no more sorcerous or heretical than the fetishes Space Wolves festoon themselves with or the spirit bonds they form with various animals and quasi-animals.

The familiars were daemons. This makes it 100% more sorcerous than anything the Wolves had.

**Void__Dragon**

Useage of Tutelaries is indeed sorcery.

However only the very highest ranking members of the Thousand Sons ever used them. Notably, Magnus doesn't seem to have one. Unless Tzeentch counts as his Tutelary. Beyond that, they recognised that there were limits, Tutelaries being the most (Maybe only) sorcerous practice of the TS, and Ahriman and others note being uncomfortable with the ritualistic nature of what they were doing when projecting Magnus' Warp Presence to Horus and then to Terra, noting it to be similar to some of the Warp Witches they have hunted.

As for Space Wolves being the Emperor's Executioners... Come on, that is kind of stupid. The notion that they could theoretically execute the Ultramarine Legion if they went traitor is preposterous, Guilliman is a better general than Russ, and the Ultramarines massively outnumber the Space Wolves, who IIRC were a pretty small Legion, having only about 13,000 Astartes.

**Seaward**

Void__Dragon wrote:
As for Space Wolves being the Emperor's Executioners... Come on, that is kind of stupid. The notion that they could theoretically execute the Ultramarine Legion if they went traitor is preposterous, Guilliman is a better general than Russ, and the Ultramarines massively outnumber the Space Wolves, who IIRC were a pretty small Legion, having only about 13,000 Astartes.

It's incredibly stupid.

**Omegus**

nu-uh! ur all just jelus cuz your not as awesome!!1!!1

**reds8n**

I can appreciate what you're trying to say here, but can we not go down this particular posting style please. Thanks.

**Brother Ramses**

Omegus wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I need to check my books, but did not Magnus have a vision at the council about Horus and that was why he had to hurry back to his home planet at the end? Why not just tell the Emperor then about his vision while at Nikea?

You should indeed check your books, because you are 100% wrong on every single count.

Magnus explicitly ordered his Legion to obey the Emperor's decree. Even he abstained from using his powers, except until after they had returned to Prospero and he had his captains do a bunch of research to confirm the daemon's warning/taunts about Horus. The ritual he undertook to try and save Horus was the first time any of the Thousand Sons were involved in something actually resembling sorcery, since a number of them spoke out against it, saying it "smacks of unclean spirit worship". When that attempt failed, Ahriman likewise argued against the spell Magnus used to travel to Terra.

As for why he just didn't tell the Emperor at Nikea, there were several reasons:

1. The Emperor is not the most approachable guy.
2. The Emperor had already departed.
3. Magnus didn't have a vision, so much as a visitation from the Warp, and he didn't quite trust what he heard until he did his own research into the matter.
4. Magnus and his Legion were just publicly chastised for their psychic powers, making it not quite an ideal time to fly up to the Emperor's barge and tell him a daemon just told you his favorite son was going to turn traitor.

As Magnus said, "“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

As always, I needed to actually go to the books and once again your pro-anything against the SW needs to be pointed out.

Magnus did not explicitly tell his Legion to stop. The conversation between Lemuel and Mahavastu starting with Book 3: Propero's Lament, shows that the remembrancers training by the Thousand Sons had become even more intensive. Mahavastu remarks that despite the edict that the Thousand Sons were still pursuing their esoteric learnings and that Lemuel's instruction was against the Emperor's edict. He closes by saying that the Legion is doomed if they continue down their path of defiance. Later on there is another conversation stating that Magnus has the Thousand Son's researching in the cult libraries to project a body of light farther then ever before.

It is clear that the Thousand Sons never followed the edict set by the Emperor.

Now as for your other points,

1. During the edict, the Emperor is conversing directly to Magnus and Magnus answers that he is master of the knowledge. He could have easily had told him what he saw, but instead is still defending his vision for humanity.
2. Magnus had his vision before the judgement. The Emperor had NOT already left Nikiea. In fact point number 1 happens after the vision.
3. He had a vision or visitation by the warp. He could have easily relayed that, but then it would have revealed to the Emperor how far he had already delved into sorcery thus completely wrecking his previously stated case of innocence to the assembly and the Emperor.
4. See above. Also, Magnus left Nikea knowing exactly what was going to happen but instead of telling ANYONE, he chose to vindicate himself and his Legion via getting proof by using the exact things they had been banned from using. If anything he could have told his father and the Emperor himself could have seen if Magnus was telling the truth and investigated it with Magnus.

Seriously, I knew I had read and was just waiting for the time to pull my books out of storage and give them a re-read to write this post. Stop spreading misinformation whenever it comes to the SW/TS topic.

**iproxtaco**

"“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

That pretty much explains it. Telling in Emperor that he had just had a blurry visitation that told him of a possible future that he still had little idea what it meant wasn't really an option open to Magnus. There was a dual motive for using sorcery to tell the Emperor, but the Thousand Sons did it out of loyalty.

**Brother Ramses**

iproxtaco wrote:"“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

That pretty much explains it. Telling in Emperor that he had just had a blurry visitation that told him of a possible future that he still had little idea what it meant wasn't really an option open to Magnus. There was a dual motive for using sorcery to tell the Emperor, but the Thousand Sons did it out of loyalty.

So it was a "blurry" enough vision to NOT tell his father but solid enough to proceed to defy the edict set by the Emperor that would damn the Legion?

It was an option. One that he could have told his father and then if not believed he could have chosen to pursue his proof. As I said, he couldn't tell his father because it would have completely revealed the depths of how far Magnus had already delved into sorcery and completely destoryed his previously issued eloquent defense speech.

**iproxtaco**

Well yes, exactly. He had a vague vision with no proof to back this up. Given the circumstances he wouldn't want to land himself in more trouble.

Magnus argued that sorcery should be employed to help humanity, not that he didn't use it. In fact, considering this turned out to be true it would have only strengthened his case. But again, he had no proof and would likely have been punished for even suggesting such a thing could be true, and because of how he discovered it, meaning there was a good chance he wouldn't have been able to return to Prospero and attempt to stop Horus from falling.