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Still...
The fall of the Thousand Sons was a tragic one...
Horus was a cunning one...

The truth is that anyone who has any degree of psychic ability, i.e., all human beings, is susceptible to the corruption of Chaos barring training and faith. It's not the psychic ability itself that is corrupting but the interest that the Ruinous Powers and their minions take in those who manifest the ability. "Normal" psykers are not necessarily "pure." Purity is not a measure of someone's use of psychic powers. GK can be terrifically powerful psykers and yet are pure. Purity is a moral stance quite separate from psychic ability. The purity of the GK is what allows them to use daemon weapons, etc, without falling to Chaos. It's not that they can't be corrupted but rather that they have never yet been corrupted. That doesn't make them less interesting but rather more interesting, since they are unique in this ability. Not even Inquisitors have been able to do this, hence the prevalence of Puritanism.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway.

Exactly so. There's no point pretending there is no difference when we know perfectly well that there is one. Just because they didn't know it in M31 doesn't mean it wasn't actually the case.

DarknessEternal wrote:History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway. Their use of the Warp has become the standard, and the Thousand Son's daemonic pacts are clearly understood to be a terrible idea.

Yes, the prevalence of Rune Priests running around using the natural cycles of their home planets in conjunction with talismans of fur and bone is a common sight in the Librarian departments of all Space Marine chapters.

Space Wolf psykers are just as outside the norm as the pre-heresy 1k Sons were, just in a different direction. Where the Sons embraced the potential of the warp and attempted to exploit it through knowledge, exploration, and skill, the Wolves went the opposite way and instead denied that they were using the warp, and insisted on harnessing their powers through superstition, ritual, and trinkets. These views do also reflect the nature of the Imperium pre and post heresy, and while the Sons methods should allow for more power, they also set things up for hubris to come into play, and a fall to happen. The Wolves system, OTOH, should be less powerful due to the hidebound nature of it, and the fact that the superstitious nature of the training should mean that new Rune Priests really shouldn't be doing anything different (and ergo learning new things) than what their teachers tell them. The plus side being that by never even risking overstepping their abilities, they should be slightly safer from all the nastiness that comes with interacting with the Warp.

Bog standard Librarian programs are more a mixture of the two philosophies, obviously choosing to err on the side of caution.

DarknessEternal wrote:History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway. Their use of the Warp has become the standard, and the Thousand Son's daemonic pacts are clearly understood to be a terrible idea.

Quite the opposite. The Space Wolves advocated against the use of ALL librarians, not just the ones in the Thousand Sons. This is because they viewed the use of psychic powers as employed by librarians to be fundamentally different than what their rune priests do. The ironic part is that in the 40th millennium librarians, as introduced by Magnus 10,000 years prior, are part of the Codex Astartes (written by Guilliman, who of course was on the side of Magnus at Nikaea).

The more subtle point is that rune priests are different from librarians, not because they don't really use the warp, but because they really believe that they don't use it. This is actually a common theme that runs through the entire setting - ignorance can actually be a great defense against Chaos. This is why the Emperor tries to spread the secular Imperial Truth (which, as it turns out, is actually completely false), lies to all his sons about the existence of Chaos, and sides with Space Wolves at Nikaea to forbid the use of librarians.

Wait, Abadabadoobaddon, don't breeze by DarknessEternals' real point so quickly: there is a real difference between being a psyker and being a a Chaos Sorcerer.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Space Wolves advocated against the use of ALL librarians, not just the ones in the Thousand Sons. This is because they viewed the use of psychic powers as employed by librarians to be fundamentally different than what their rune priests do.

Quite so. The Librarium was founded upon daemonic pacts and channeling. This is what Magnus taught, so that's what they were, even though no one understood daemons yet. The Space Wolves were correct in this area about the dangers of the Librarium, even though, once again, they didn't know why.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The more subtle point is that rune priests are different from librarians, not because they don't really use the warp, but because they really believe that they don't use it. This is actually a common theme that runs through the entire setting - ignorance can actually be a great defense against Chaos.

I do not disagree. What I meant by "the standard" was non-daemonic warp use.

Well the evidence stands that the the techniques, the education, the equipment, and even game representation of rune priests is significantly different then librarian of the Librarium.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The more subtle point is that rune priests are different from librarians, not because they don't really use the warp, but because they really believe that they don't use it. This is actually a common theme that runs through the entire setting - ignorance can actually be a great defense against Chaos. This is why the Emperor tries to spread the secular Imperial Truth (which, as it turns out, is actually completely false), lies to all his sons about the existence of Chaos, and sides with Space Wolves at Nikaea to forbid the use of librarians.

That's more faith than ignorance, but I agree that the post-heresy Imperium places a lot of importance on items like faith and ignorance that are the opposite of the original Imperial Truth. It's nice, that attitude is at once the thing that holds the Imperium together now that the Emperor is gone, and at the same time is what slowly weakening them in advance of their eventual fall.

DarknessEternal wrote:Quite so. The Librarium was founded upon daemonic pacts and channeling. This is what Magnus taught, so that's what they were, even though no one understood daemons yet. The Space Wolves were correct in this area about the dangers of the Librarium, even though, once again, they didn't know why.

Wha...? You want to point out exactly where it says that the pre-Nikea Librariums did daemonic pacts? You really think the Emperor would have allowed a legion wide program to be implemented that involved deals with daemons? At no point are Librarians mentioned as even knowing about tutelaries (or anything similar), and even in the Sons, tutelaries were not exactly common. You had to be a tenth degree black belt in warpology to get one.

If nothing else, if the Librarium had been based on daemonic pacts, then you'd expect pretty much every Librarian to have gone over the edge during the Heresy.

You want to point out exactly where it says that the pre-Nikea Librariums did daemonic pacts?

A Thousand Sons.

You really think the Emperor would have allowed a legion wide program to be implemented that involved deals with daemons?

He put a stop to it at Nikaea (Point A). We don't know why the Chapters have Librarians except that Guilliman must have included them in Codex Astartes (Point B). But everything between Point A and Point B is still a mystery.

You sure that wasn't just hyperbole on the part of the speaker (which I'm assuming was either that Rune Priest or Russ, I think Mortarion focused on the specific planet he fought daemons on)? Prospero Burns makes it pretty clear that the people of Fenris and the Wolves have a rather, shall we say, expansive definition of maleficarum.

If the Librarium were that up on daemonic pacts, you'd think the Librarians in the DA HH books would have been a little more up to speed on Chaos when it shows up.

And seriously, if you're trying to say that the original Librarian program involved daemonic pacts, and that the Emperor signed off on something involving daemonic pacts, but then changed his mind, I'm going to call troll. God knows we're making up rationalizations whole cloth, but that's not even realistic, even with the dubious definition of realistic that the Warhammer universe works with.

CpatTom wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

ATTEMPTED THREAD HI-JACK!!! LAUNCH EXTERMINATUS!!!

but the SW have super special snow flake powers apparently, but in reality (40k reality), they just get their doombolts from the same place....

That was some impressive thread hijack response systems. I wonder if i can get it for my car.

You can, you just need to have connections to the imperial navy..............

I've said too much...

I don't think the Emperor ever specifically approved of what Magnus was doing or that the Librarian-structure from the Codex was at that time universal across the legions. In fact, we know it was not because the SW had such completely different practices from the Thousand Sons.

I suspect that the Space Wolves (as they developed on Fenris, not the original Terran forces) didn't change anything other than the weapons and armor they used once they were transmogrified from locals into Space Marines. So any mortal Rune Priest that made the cut to join probably just kept on doing whatever it is that mortal Rune Priests do on Fenris.

Sad that there's no info on pre-heresy recruiting practices for the Wolves. Given the larger Legion size, they'd have to do something a bit different than let the screwheads beat on each other and then pick up whoever looks hard core.

I don't know that there would be much of a difference between pre- and post-Heresy SW recruiting practices.

Bigger legion size, with bigger battles and losses, plus the fact that there's no reason why they couldn't be looking to grow their numbers, as opposed to holding steady at around 100-150 per Wolf Company, would mean that they'd most likely have to recruit more people. The current system involves letting the people of Fenris hit each other in the head and then picking either the winner and/or a really good loser, which makes for a pretty select crew, but during the Great Crusade they'd probably need more recruits than that. You'd think they might want to grab some warriors before most of them have gotten themselves deaded.

Oh, I thought you meant regarding selecting/training Rune Priests.

Nah, they use those battles as in flight entertainment.

And the Rune Priests believe they're channelling Fenris's power (which, when you think about it, is pretty heretical too).

No argument that SW don't toe the Imperial line (remember Armageddon?) but "unorthodox" doesn't mean "heresy" as in "corruption" in this case. These are all separate terms, we should remember. The beliefs of loyal servants of the Emperor are quite disparate. There is room for both the Inquisition and the Space Wolves, although both parties would themselves disagree.

Manchu wrote:Wait, Abadabadoobaddon, don't breeze by DarknessEternals' real point so quickly: there is a real difference between being a psyker and being a a Chaos Sorcerer.

My point is that such a difference is largely one that a priori only exists in the mind of the practitioner. Sure, in hindsight we can say that Magnus was a sorcerer all along, but that's only because he came out on the losing end of his bargain. It's strongly hinted that in order to make the primarchs the Emperor made similar pacts with the chaos gods, then turned around and reneged - but he's not considered a chaos sorcerer because the gods didn't get his soul (yet).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote: It's strongly hinted that in order to make the primarchs the Emperor made similar pacts with the chaos gods,

That has only been hinted at by daemons, who are quite unreliable and definitely would benefit from people believing it whether it was true or not.


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daveNYC wrote:
If the Librarium were that up on daemonic pacts, you'd think the Librarians in the DA HH books would have been a little more up to speed on Chaos when it shows up.

No one understood what daemons really were at that time. Remember, they were just considered aliens that lived in the warp by those were considered the experts.

Chaos wasn't a concept grasped by anyone in the Imperium until well into the actual Heresy.

It's strongly hinted that in order to make the primarchs the Emperor made similar pacts with the chaos gods, then turned around and reneged - but he's not considered a chaos sorcerer because the gods didn't get his soul (yet).

Whether or not we consider the Emperor a sorcerer is truly a matter that's up for dark debate. Magnus seems to think he is one, which makes Magnus all the more bitter about being chastised.

Manchu wrote:No argument that SW don't toe the Imperial line (remember Armageddon?) but "unorthodox" doesn't mean "heresy" as in "corruption" in this case. These are all separate terms, we should remember. The beliefs of loyal servants of the Emperor are quite disparate. There is room for both the Inquisition and the Space Wolves, although both parties would themselves disagree.

Well that all depends on how much of a Puritan you're dealing with. :-)

Although if you want to discuss the difference between disobedient and disloyal in the context of what Magnus and the Thousand Sons did, that could be entertaining.

Oh, I thought you meant regarding selecting/training Rune Priests.

Honestly, I figure they just grab whoever meets their criteria and just have them train under an existing Rune Priest, who is probably just doing whatever he did as a mortal Rune Priest, just with Astartes capabilities backing him. Old school and traditional is what I think of for a lot of what the Wolves do. Yeah, they have their rowdy guys and whatnot, but in some ways they're even more hidebound than the Ultramarines. Just wish that the fluff or crunch would reflect some of that.

Of course this is the game that takes something as obviously 'not good' as the Black Rage and manages to make it a potential positive on the tabletop. So there is that.

Although if you want to discuss the difference between disobedient and disloyal in the context of what Magnus and the Thousand Sons did, that could be entertaining.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
If the Librarium were that up on daemonic pacts, you'd think the Librarians in the DA HH books would have been a little more up to speed on Chaos when it shows up.

No one understood what daemons really were at that time. Remember, they were just considered aliens that lived in the warp by those were considered the experts.

Chaos wasn't a concept grasped by anyone in the Imperium until well into the actual Heresy.

To be accurate, there was at least one person who had a very strong handle on the concept of Chaos, and as Emperor, he would have been the one to sign off on the original Librarian program. The Emperor has made a lot of boneheaded moves in the HH books, but I'm not going to buy that he let daemon pacts slip into a training program that was in use by all (not including Space Wolves) legions.

This is a serious weak spot in the HH books. In Horus Rising, you've got a marine getting posessed, and the marines are all freaked out, but a bloody regular mortal is just like "Oh yeah, daemons, those things happen." Yet in Legion, Alpharius knows enough about the stuff to be able to explain how that planet's population had been able to hold off the army for as long as they did (plus, it informs his decision at the end of the novel), and in the first DA book, one Librarian manages to build a bomb to close a warp rift.

Honestly, calling the daemons aliens from the warp isn't that inaccurate. They are basically just aliens from the warp who feed off of specific emotions, and because they're from the warp, they can make the laws of physics cry. The fact that 'sentient energy creature' is so hard to understand in 30k would indicate that all copies of Star Trek episodes were lost sometime in the distant past.

daveNYC wrote:Just wish that the fluff or crunch would reflect some of that.

Of course this is the game that takes something as obviously 'not good' as the Black Rage and manages to make it a potential positive on the tabletop. So there is that.

And I wish their rules would represent their fluff, but there you have it. And if the Blood Angels were to have a *gasp* flaw, then some players might leave them in favour of something that's now seven feet tall in power armour.

Manchu wrote:

Although if you want to discuss the difference between disobedient and disloyal in the context of what Magnus and the Thousand Sons did, that could be entertaining.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

Ah yes. Consider the words 'discuss' and 'entertaining' to have somewhat flexible definitions.

I stand by the points I made in that thread and I think the ones about Magnus have all been borne out in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

The Space Wolves are mutant, warp weilding, scum. They, like all Imperial forces, are hypocritical.

You forgot to scream "death to the false emperor!"

Manchu wrote:I stand by the points I made in that thread and I think the ones about Magnus have all been borne out in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

I'd be happy to argue until the cows come home concerning the information out of A Thousand Sons, however dead horse abuse is frowned upon, not to mention that nothing particularly productive would come of it.

I have to ask though, what exactly was borne out based on info from Prospero Burns? Love it or hate it, the one thing it really doesn't have is much more information regarding Magnus. Heck, it barely has any new information regarding Russ (which IMO was a horrible missed opportunity).