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I have a completely different take on Magnus' motivation for his actions at the end of A Thousand Sons. You say he was saving himself, I say he was working to save what remained of his legion. Plus it works neatly with the overarching Tzeentzchian plot; saving his legion in the beginning from the flesh change is how Tzeentzch first got his hooks into Magnus, and saving his legion from the Wolves at the end is how Tzeentzch finally reeled him in at the end. And like I said, if his motivation was saving his Sons, then that makes the side effects of the Rubric that much more traumatic for him.

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it)

Man, not only are you not going to give Magnus credit for anything he ever did, but you're also using a rather expansive definition of traitor. Up until he he busted down the door at Terra, he hadn't done anything that hurt the Imperium.
Made a deal with Tzeentzch, sure, but at the time the price wasn't that big (his eye), and strangely, it's not like the Emperor ever said not to.
Used sorcery to try and stop Horus from falling. Criminal, worthy of sanction, but that to did not harm to the Imperium.
Even the run on Terra was done with the intention of warning the Emperor of Horus, although in that case it was definitely harmful to the Imperium.

Unless you're expanding treason to include doing anything the Emperor disapproved of (at which point EVERY primarch would be guilty probably), then I think you're being rather uncharitable.

As far as Space Marines being unknowable post-humans, I disagree. The 40k marines are somewhat like that, but the 30k ones are just more like regular humans, only better. The 30k setting is much more open and optimistic than 40k, so these are marines who not only were regular human for the first 10-15 years (like all of them), but have been raised on the Imperial Truth, not the Imperial Creed, and regularly interact with both the populations they invade/rescue, the Imperial Army units they're with, and all the rememberances and the like in the fleets. Physically they're the same, but mentally they're the product of a much different environment.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself.

Well, you're ignoring the "Horus is turning against the Emperor" impetus for Magnus casting the spell in the first place. I could also make the point that in casting that spell he inadvertently destroyed the manacles that were intended to enslave him to the Golden Throne. Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

The ultimate problem with the Space Wolves enforcing the edict of Nicaea is twofold:

- The Emperor didn't order the destruction of the Thousand Sons, it was Horus. This leads to the obvious (to me) implication that Russ was being used by Horus, either negligently or willfully, to eliminate one of the biggest threats to his coup.

- Second, the Space Wolves had themselves never intended to follow the edict and proudly violated both the letter and spirit of it. They rightfully saw the outcome of Nicaea as "sanction Magnus," not to prohibit the use of psykers.

The Wolves thought it didn't apply to them because they are oh so special snowflakes and obviously don't use the heretical Librarians that other Legions do. Nope, their powers come from the natural life and death cycles of Fenris.

The Council of Nikaea wasn't meant to ban sorcery, it was meant to ban psykers specifically, or Librarians. The Wolves exploited a loophole formed through ignorance to continue using psykers without sanction.


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daveNYC wrote:I don't think he actually believed that he was more powerful than the Emperor. I'm definitely sure he believed he knew better than the Emperor regarding the use of psykers in the Astartes. The standard 'I'll show them for stopping my research, bwa-ha-ah!' that you get from every mad scientist.

I may be wrong. According to Omegus Magnus simply thought his overall mastery of the Warp was superior, but the Emperor was still more powerful.

It was that one mortal librarian dude that Loken or whoever talked to. Really don't have the book on me at the moment, but I do remember there was one guy who was all over it. I might be on drugs though.

Oh the old dude? Guy was traumatised, lol. As in, borderline catatonic. Seeing the daemon freaked him right the feth out.

Prospero Burns is a good book that is a horrible Horus Heresy book. Main thing you learn is that Russ doesn't like to talk to people. You learn this because Russ doesn't talk to the book's narrator. Actually, he does show up like two or three times, but if what you liked about A Thousand Sons was learning about Magnus, Ahriman, and the ways of the Legion, you'll be less happy about Prospero Burns. Plus the actual battle in the title only takes up like ten pages at the end.

Hm, I see. Well, that's a little disappointing, but will still give it a read when I acquire it.

I think there's a bit of "the end is the beginning is the end" nonlinear time type stuff happening here. When Magnus sacrifices his eye it's implied that he doesn't sacrifice his eye "from now on" but sacrifices ever having an eye (nobody notices its gone all of a sudden). His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense. The flesh change may actually be the result of Magnus' ultimate decision to go to Tzeentch which in turn is its cause (or maybe it's the Rubric which "causes" everything?). They are called the Thousand Sons at their founding because only a thousand of them are left at their end. And their symbol is the ouroboros.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself. If you think he did it just "to save the Imperium" then you have totally misunderstood the character. He was proving a point to daddy.

This I would sort of agree with. I do believe Magnus used sorcery to warn the Emperor so he could prove a point, to validate his beliefs. But it exploded in his face.

BUT, to be fair to Magnus, know how this could of been avoided?

If the Emperor told Magnus about the Webway Gate from the beginning. Since, you know, he was the person he wanted to sit on the damn thing.

Magnus did want to prove a point to his father, that is true, but at the same time, he did care about the Imperium, and ultimately went to great pains do try to save it.

Yes, he claimed that this egregious example of trafficking with Tzeentch -- and that's what it was, whether or not Magnus was too arrogantly blind to notice -- would save the Emperor. But it was "just as planned" and moved the Heresy along very nicely as far as Horus and the Ruinous Powers were concerned. Magnus played his role perfectly from the beginning. What was the price for stabilizing his Legion? -- that eventually he would send the psychic message to Terra, distract Russ and the Wolves, undermine the palace defense, and ultimately knowingly kneel to Tzeentch.

I'm not sure you can really fault Magnus for being tricked by Tzeentch. I mean, come on. It's Tzeentch. That's what makes Magnus so tragic, he thought he was in control of his power, of the Empyrean, but ultimately, he was its pawn all along.

When faced with accepting the fate he had called down upon himself and finally obeying the Emperor, even if it meant his death

Considering that's exactly what he was doing, yeah. He allowed the Space Wolves to catch his legion with their pants down, and Ahriman even says Magnus has no intention of coming back alive from a fight with the Wolves, he was sacrificing himself to save his Legion. Only through Tzeentch's intervention did Magnus survive.

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it) who was badly treated by an ungrateful father

Magnus never had any intention of betraying the Emperor until he saw the barbarity of the Space Wolve's destruction, and chose to save his Legion, while damning himself.

... Magnus chose the latter. He did no "sacrifice himself." He saved himself. He did not do what was best for his father or for mankind. He joined the fight to destroy his father and subjugate mankind to the deprivations of the Ruinous Powers.

Magnus didn't screw the Emperor, the Emperor screwed Magnus.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I think there's a bit of "the end is the beginning is the end" nonlinear time type stuff happening here. When Magnus sacrifices his eye it's implied that he doesn't sacrifice his eye "from now on" but sacrifices ever having an eye (nobody notices its gone all of a sudden). His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense. The flesh change may actually be the result of Magnus' ultimate decision to go to Tzeentch which in turn is its cause (or maybe it's the Rubric which "causes" everything?). They are called the Thousand Sons at their founding because only a thousand of them are left at their end. And their symbol is the ouroboros.

Sounds interesting. Although I know they were called the Thousand Sons because they numbered only 1000 when Magnus first joined his Legion. The rest had succumbed to the Flesh Change and put in stasis.

Wasn't their original symbol a starburst?

biccat wrote: Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

You misread that.

The Emperor's plan for Magnus was exactly what Magnus had always dreamt his life was for. Powering the Golden Throne would have brought meaning to his entire existence and is everything he longed for. He stated this specifically.

That he ruined this by invading the palace and wrecking it was what caused him to cross the Despair Event Horizon. Afterwards, he didn't even bother mentioning anything about Horus before he went home to mope and give in to Tzeentch.

The Emperor had been right all along and Magnus was wrong. That's what broke Magnus.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Emperor had been right all along and Magnus was wrong. That's what broke Magnus.

Which makes sense considering that he thought so very highly of himself.


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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense.

That's fantastic. I love that idea; it makes a huge deal of sense to me.


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Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not sure you can really fault Magnus for being tricked by Tzeentch. I mean, come on. It's Tzeentch.

If there was no way that Magnus could have resisted then the story would be pointless.

I really love the character of Magnus. Truly, he may be my favorite Primarch when all is said and done -- although there is not a one of them I don't like. I just don't see him as trying to save the Imperium. I think he justified and rationalized doing what he wanted with that -- it's all tied up in trying to prove to the Emperor, whose approval he absolutely craved, that the Warp wasn't so bad. But the Emperor knew otherwise, hence the Imperial Webway project that Magnus destroyed.

DarknessEternal wrote:

biccat wrote: Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

You misread that.

The Emperor's plan for Magnus was exactly what Magnus had always dreamt his life was for. Powering the Golden Throne would have brought meaning to his entire existence and is everything he longed for. He stated this specifically.

I'm going to have to reread that section of the book, but wasn't the plan for Magnus to sit on the throne and protect the new webway sections that the Emperor was building to connect all the parts of the Imperium? And wasn't the main goal of that plan to remove the need to use the warp for communication and travel? I mean sure it'd be important and all, but I don't think Magnus had always dreamed that his life was meant to do away with the necesity and use of psychic powers.

Manchu wrote:If there was no way that Magnus could have resisted then the story would be pointless.

Absolutely. I'd actually say that resisted isn't the right word. This isn't like Fulgrim who was constantly being ground down by the influence of the daemon sword and the original trip to the temple, or Horus on the edge of death being show a whole bunch of smoke and mirrors. It's choice that's key. The whole fall of the Sons was the result of Tzeentzch presenting Magnus with a series of choices. Of course he stacked the deck, but each choice was made freely. Which is a theme that shows up in Battle for the Fang, when Magnus stops time and gives the Wolf Lord the choice to kill him or not, with the resulting axe blow actually freeing Magnus to fully manifest on Fenris and totally go to town on people.

DarknessEternal wrote: Afterwards, he didn't even bother mentioning anything about Horus before he went home to mope and give in to Tzeentch.

Conjecture.

The contents of their conversation was not actually shown, unless it was in some other book.


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Manchu wrote:If there was no way that Magnus could have resisted then the story would be pointless.

I really love the character of Magnus. Truly, he may be my favorite Primarch when all is said and done -- although there is not a one of them I don't like. I just don't see him as trying to save the Imperium. I think he justified and rationalized doing what he wanted with that -- it's all tied up in trying to prove to the Emperor, whose approval he absolutely craved, that the Warp wasn't so bad. But the Emperor knew otherwise, hence the Imperial Webway project that Magnus destroyed.

Actually I disagree.

The point was that Magnus could do nothing to resist Tzeentch after he first encountered it, that Magnus, for all his power, was nothing before the primal force he thought he could master, and that Magnus' entire life was spent being a pawn of Tzeentch. The realization of this in his tower crushed Magnus, and finally broke his pride, completely and utterly.

daveNYC wrote:
I'm going to have to reread that section of the book, but wasn't the plan for Magnus to sit on the throne and protect the new webway sections that the Emperor was building to connect all the parts of the Imperium? And wasn't the main goal of that plan to remove the need to use the warp for communication and travel? I mean sure it'd be important and all, but I don't think Magnus had always dreamed that his life was meant to do away with the necesity and use of psychic powers.

It's stated plainly. The Emperor's plan to usher humanity into a new age of dominance and saftey used Magnus as the keystone. That's what Magnus was already trying to do himself, he didn't realize the Emperor already had that mapped out in a far less stupid way than Magnus was trying.

It also wasn't doing away with psychic powers. It was about confining them to a codified science that was predictable and controllable. Once again, something Magnus was trying to do, but doing poorly with his daemonic pacts.

Magnus' flaw was his unbelievable arrogance that he was always right (ironically, this also his father's greatest flaw). This event showed him that not only was he wrong, but his actions made things worse. That's what broke him.


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Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote: Afterwards, he didn't even bother mentioning anything about Horus before he went home to mope and give in to Tzeentch.

Conjecture.

The contents of their conversation was not actually shown, unless it was in some other book.

They didn't have a conversation. The whole encounter is recounted. Magnus never says anything before he leaves.

It works like this basically.

Germanic Pagan Spirituality...In space! That's actually fueled by the Warp. It's just so out there that Fenrisians simply say it's "Shamans" not Psykers.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself. If you think he did it just "to save the Imperium" then you have totally misunderstood the character. He was proving a point to daddy. Yes, he claimed that this egregious example of trafficking with Tzeentch -- and that's what it was, whether or not Magnus was too arrogantly blind to notice -- would save the Emperor. But it was "just as planned" and moved the Heresy along very nicely as far as Horus and the Ruinous Powers were concerned. Magnus played his role perfectly from the beginning. What was the price for stabilizing his Legion? -- that eventually he would send the psychic message to Terra, distract Russ and the Wolves, undermine the palace defense, and ultimately knowingly kneel to Tzeentch.

When faced with accepting the fate he had called down upon himself and finally obeying the Emperor, even if it meant his death

-OR-

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it) who was badly treated by an ungrateful father

... Magnus chose the latter. He did no "sacrifice himself." He saved himself. He did not do what was best for his father or for mankind. He joined the fight to destroy his father and subjugate mankind to the deprivations of the Ruinous Powers.

He may have been proving a point on some level, but he had no idea what the Emperor was doing. Look at it from his perspective. Horus is a traitor who is about to attempt to destroy the Imperium. The only way I can warn the Emperor is to use the powers he banned under pressure from my superstitious and hypocritical brothers. Which is the lesser of two evils in this situation, I wonder?

If you think that Magnus moved against the Imperium willingly, I don't think there's much I can say to convince you otherwise. He tried to warn the Emperor, then the next contact he had from the Imperium was the Space Wolves trying to annihilate his planet. It's understandable that he's bitter about it.

Durza wrote:
He may have been proving a point on some level, but he had no idea what the Emperor was doing. Look at it from his perspective. Horus is a traitor who is about to attempt to destroy the Imperium. The only way I can warn the Emperor is to use the powers he banned under pressure from my superstitious and hypocritical brothers. Which is the lesser of two evils in this situation, I wonder?

It wasn't the only way. Ahriman offered him another option at least.

Magnus chose his way anyway.

Considering Ahriman, who's to say it wouldn't have turned out worse?

In this case, we can presume guilt. If you are too arrogant to understand that what you're doing is wrong, it does not make you less culpable for your wrong-doing. Like I said, all the more praise to Leman Russ for figuring out what was going on without having even close to all the pieces.

Because to the Wolf King, it didn't pass the "smell" test.

iproxtaco wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I think there's a bit of "the end is the beginning is the end" nonlinear time type stuff happening here. When Magnus sacrifices his eye it's implied that he doesn't sacrifice his eye "from now on" but sacrifices ever having an eye (nobody notices its gone all of a sudden). His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense. The flesh change may actually be the result of Magnus' ultimate decision to go to Tzeentch which in turn is its cause (or maybe it's the Rubric which "causes" everything?). They are called the Thousand Sons at their founding because only a thousand of them are left at their end. And their symbol is the ouroboros.

Sounds interesting. Although I know they were called the Thousand Sons because they numbered only 1000 when Magnus first joined his Legion. The rest had succumbed to the Flesh Change and put in stasis.

That's what Magnus (or was it Ahriman?) thinks before the sacking of Prospero.

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself.

Well, you're ignoring the "Horus is turning against the Emperor" impetus for Magnus casting the spell in the first place. I could also make the point that in casting that spell he inadvertently destroyed the manacles that were intended to enslave him to the Golden Throne. Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

The ultimate problem with the Space Wolves enforcing the edict of Nicaea is twofold:

- The Emperor didn't order the destruction of the Thousand Sons, it was Horus. This leads to the obvious (to me) implication that Russ was being used by Horus, either negligently or willfully, to eliminate one of the biggest threats to his coup.

- Second, the Space Wolves had themselves never intended to follow the edict and proudly violated both the letter and spirit of it. They rightfully saw the outcome of Nicaea as "sanction Magnus," not to prohibit the use of psykers.

Your above two points are in contention because of the following;

-Older fluff has established that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace with his psychic message. In one case it is said the Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons and another is that Russ convinced the Emperor that the Thousand Sons needed to be sanctioned.

-The Council of Nikea is commonly referred to as, "The Trial of Magnus the Red". People tend to gloss over exactly what was decreed by the Emperor and then try to extend it to the rune priests. Read what was decreed; librarians and the librariums were to be shut down because they were a direct link to Magnus' teaching and founding. Rune priests were never librarians, the Space Wolves never had librariums. The rune priests never had a link to Magnus' teaching or founding.

Brother Ramses wrote:

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself.

Well, you're ignoring the "Horus is turning against the Emperor" impetus for Magnus casting the spell in the first place. I could also make the point that in casting that spell he inadvertently destroyed the manacles that were intended to enslave him to the Golden Throne. Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

The ultimate problem with the Space Wolves enforcing the edict of Nicaea is twofold:

- The Emperor didn't order the destruction of the Thousand Sons, it was Horus. This leads to the obvious (to me) implication that Russ was being used by Horus, either negligently or willfully, to eliminate one of the biggest threats to his coup.

- Second, the Space Wolves had themselves never intended to follow the edict and proudly violated both the letter and spirit of it. They rightfully saw the outcome of Nicaea as "sanction Magnus," not to prohibit the use of psykers.

Your above two points are in contention because of the following;

-Older fluff has established that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace with his psychic message. In one case it is said the Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons and another is that Russ convinced the Emperor that the Thousand Sons needed to be sanctioned.

That's not in contention with his point, really. It's well known that Horus manipulated Russ in some way.

-The emperor initially sent Russ out to bring Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crimes.

-Then Horus the Warmaster contacted him again during his journey to Prospero and told him the Emperor wanted him to kill Magnus.

-In Prospero burns we have Russ trying to convey a message to Magnus that he can still give up and surrender forcing Russ to not have to kill him.

Brother Ramses wrote:Your above two points are in contention because of the following;

-Older fluff has established that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace with his psychic message. In one case it is said the Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons and another is that Russ convinced the Emperor that the Thousand Sons needed to be sanctioned.

Older fluff does indeed dictate that the Emperor was convinced by Russ to order the Sons' destruction. New fluff however overrides old fluff.

-The Council of Nikea is commonly referred to as, "The Trial of Magnus the Red". People tend to gloss over exactly what was decreed by the Emperor and then try to extend it to the rune priests. Read what was decreed; librarians and the librariums were to be shut down because they were a direct link to Magnus' teaching and founding. Rune priests were never librarians, the Space Wolves never had librariums. The rune priests never had a link to Magnus' teaching or founding.

The Emperor made it clear that, though technically only the Librarians were being shut down, he thought that psychic powers in general should not be allowed in the Legions, and said he never should have revealed the contents of the Warp to anyone. The Rune Priests unknowingly exploited a loophole and were allowable on a technicality.

If the Emperor only thought Magnus' link to the Librarians was the problem, he could have easily revised the training of the Librarians to limit Magnus' influence.

And really, the Librarians of other Legions didn't use outright sorcery. I don't recall Zahariel from the Dark Angels books making any Daemonic pacts... I mean, except at the end, when he really started using sorcery. But before that he did not.

Manchu wrote: But the Space Wolves had a good reason to trust themselves: seemingly, they were made by the Emperor to take out other Legions in the event of rebellion.

That doesn't really make any damn sense, though. They had the backup of the Custodes, were facing the smallest Legion with the ultimate trump card of the Sisters of Silence, and were given absolutely every possible advantage Magnus could think of, and they still had a tough go of it until the Thousand Sons' heads started exploding.

What if one of the other Legions decided to misbehave? What the hell could the Wolves do against the Dark Angels or Ultramarines, for example? Even if 1 Space Wolf = 2 of any other Astartes, they would still be way outnumbered.

To answer all the debates above, about whether Magnus would have liked his role on the Throne, whether he actually delivered his warning, what finally broke him, and whether he sacrificed himself:

He had tried to deliver his warning, showing his father what he had seen and what he knew. It hadn't mattered. Nothing he could have said would have outweighed or undone the colossal mistakehe had made in coming to Terra. The treachery of Horus was swept away, an afterthought in thewake of the destruction Magnus had unwittingly unleashed. Wards that had kept the palace safe for a hundred years were obliterated in an instant, and the psychic shockwave killed thousands and drove hundreds more to madness and suicide. But that wasn't the worst of it, not by a long way.

It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie. He thought he had known better than his father how to wield the power of the Great Ocean. He believed he was its master, but in the ruins of his father's great work, he had seen the truth. The Golden Throne was the key. Unearthed from forgotten ruins sunken deep beneath the driest desert, it was the lodestone that would have unlocked the secrets of the alien lattice. Now it was in ruins, its impossibly complex dimensional inhibitors and warp buffers fused beyond salvage.

The control it maintained on the shimmering gateway at his back was ended, and the artfully designed mechanism keeping the two worlds apart was fatally fractured. In the instant of connection, Magnus saw the folly of his actions and wept to see so perfect a concept undone. Unspoken understanding flowed between Magnus and the Emperor. Everything Magnus had done was laid bare, and everything the Emperor planned flowed into him. He saw himself atop the Golden Throne, using his fearsome powers to guide humanity to its destiny as rulers of the galaxy. He was to be his father's chosen instrument of ultimate victory. It broke him to know that his unthinking hubris had shattered that dream.

And later, after Magnus had had enough of witnessing the Wolves' rampage, and finally decided to come out of his tower:

His eye locked onto Ahriman, and the depths of despair he saw in that haunted, glowing orb froze the blood in his veins. In that moment, Ahriman felt the horror Magnus had felt as his sons mutated into monsters and the anguish, centuries later, as he watched them butchered to serve a brothers lunatic ambition. He understood the noble ideal that had stayed the primarch's hand throughout the battle, recognising it for what it was, not for what he had thought it to be. He felt his father's forgiveness for doubting him, and heard his voice in his head.

"This doom was always meant for me, not you," said Magnus, and Ahriman knew that every warrior of the Thousand Sons was hearing the same thing. "You are my sons, and I have failed you."

Later, as the battle between Russ and Magnus neared its conclusion:

With the last of his strength, Magnus turned his head, and his ravaged eye found Ahriman.

This is my last gift to you.

Leman Russ blade swept down, but before its lethal edge struck, Magnus whispered unnatural syllables unknown to Man since he had first raised his guttural chants to the nameless gods of the sky. Magnus body underwent an instantaneous dissolution, its entire structure unmade with a word,and Ahriman gasped as vast and depthless power surged into his body. ... the power in him spread to the entire Legion as Magnus gave the last of his strength to save his sons.

And later still:

[Ahrimah's inner thoughts:] Magnus broods in his black tower, peering into the depths of the Great Ocean for validation, a sign that he was right to act as he did. He will find nothing, for there is nothing to find. His actions were never his own, for he forgot the first rule of the mysteries. He let his ambition and hubris blind him to his flaws and the knowledge that there is always someone stronger and more powerful out there.

He delivered his warning, it's just compared to the magnitude of what he had wrought, neither he nor the Emperor much cared anymore. He would have gladly sat on the Throne, as it would be accomplishing everything he argued for at Nikaea. What broke his spirit was the knowledge that he was wrong. It drove him to kill one of his own captains, and leave his planet defenseless, fully intent on receiving the punishment he felt was his due. He could have easily saved his world, but when he finally saw the trap he had fallen in, he decided to sacrifice himself and his world because the Wolves, for all their ignorance and brutishness, would be needed in the coming battles. But after witnessing the Wolves' mindless rampage, and faced with the final prospect of the utter destruction of the Legion he had given so much to save, his sons who were completely innocent and non-complicit in his crimes, he couldn't hold back anymore and gave his life to save them. Of course, Tzeench had different plans in mind.

So yes, he was arrogant, yes, he was wrong, yes, he made a colossal and irrevocable mistake. But to try to say that his actions weren't always well-intentioned and to call him a willful-traitor bespeaks of extremely poor judgement of character and/or utter failure at reading comprehension. You know what they say about the road to hell and what it's paved with. His arrogance is no greater a flaw than the Wolves' superstition, and at least he was man enough to admit it (unlike Russ in Prospero Burns). And of course, all of it could have been avoided if the Emperor was a tad more open with his sons.

In conclusion, the saga of the Thousand Sons and their Primarch is the absolute pinnacle of 40K fiction. Also, Space Wolves are stupid dicks.

Power of the runessss, f your heretical tricks

Russ Mandarin wrote:-The emperor initially sent Russ out to bring Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crimes.

Actually the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra to sit on the Golden Throne. Of course after Magnus broke it, "sitting on the Golden Throne" was no longer a nice happy "guide mankind to its destiny" sort of thing but more a "suck you dry until your a shriveled corpse" sort of thing.

That makes no damn sense at all. Russ was dispatched after Magnus broke the Throne and caused all sorts of damage. He was ostensibly sent to bring Magnus back, but as Ahriman saw in Wyrdmake's mind, the Wolves were urged by Valdor and Horus to just destroy the place... which they were kind of glad to do anyway.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:-The emperor initially sent Russ out to bring Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crimes.

Actually the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra to sit on the Golden Throne. Of course after Magnus broke it, "sitting on the Golden Throne" was no longer a nice happy "guide mankind to its destiny" sort of thing but more a "suck you dry until your a shriveled corpse" sort of thing.

It didn't do Malcador any favors, but the Emperor was able to use the Golden Throne to keep the web gate closed without any obvious ill effects. It's likely that Magnus would have been able to handle the strain, or perhaps they could have combined their powers to put a more permanant seal on the gate, thus freeing up both Magnus and the Emperor to be able to head out and boot head during the siege of Terra.

This hypothesis that the Wolves are so full of awesomesauce that they're the Emperor's special Executioner legion is just goofy.
For starters, there's zero evidence that any single legion is straight up better than any other legion. Better in specific settings or with certain abilities, but not in every area.
Second, if the Emperor was so worried about a legion going bad that he did create an Executioner legion, then what exactly would prevent that legion from turning? And if he did some mojo to prevent that legion from turning, why not apply that change to other legions so as to prevent them from turning.
Third, even if the Executioner legion was so hard that they could out mangle any other astartes two to one, that still means that any battle against another legion would still be a meat grinder. Under ideal conditions, you'd still be looking at anywhere between five and twenty thousand dead Executioner astartes, depending on the size of the legion to be put down. Look at Prospero where the Wolves faced no orbital defenses, were able to make their initial landing relatively unharmed, showed up with specialized troops (Sisters of Silence) to counter the Sons' specific strength, did not have to deal with the opposing Primarch until the end of the battle, and even then they still took serious losses. Any legion designed to be used specifically against other astartes would be good for only one use, after that the loss of manpower would need decades, if not centuries to get back up to full manpower, and since the Wolves only recruit from Fenris (a low population world) that process would be very slow.
Fourth, if all that is needed for an Executioner legion is the ability to follow orders, no matter how twisted they are, and to do whatever it takes to complete said orders, then pretty much any legion would be able to do the job. Heck, the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson, that's pretty hard core right there, and it's not like any other legion seemed to have issues following orders (at least when it came to killing something). I know ADB wrote some pretty words about why the World Eaters and Night Lords wouldn't be right for the job (mostly had to do with attitude and visibility), but I think he missed one key point. Nobody is allowed to talk about what happened to the two other legions, at that point, it doesn't matter who does the deed, or even how they did it. All that matters is that the offending legion is dead. Nobody (other than some Primarchs) are going around talking about what happened to the two legions.

I know that old fluff has Russ on Terra when Magnus busted in, but that really makes no sense. Fenris isn't exactly close to Terra, so it's not like he just dropped by. Russ, and indeed all the Primarchs, are hands on, in the field type leaders, so again, why would he be on Terra?

What words were these that ADB wrote? I honestly interested, I've heard talk of this before. Everything else I wholeheartedly agree with though.

Over on B&C (can't find the thread) there was a discussion on the whole Executioner legion thing, and it was asked, why the Wolves, instead of World Eaters or Night Lords, since those are two pretty crazy and hard core legions. ADB put up two bits, one for each legion basically explaining why those two legions weren't a good fit for the job. Basically came down to attitude and method. Which, given the fact that nobody is allowed to talk about the two missing legions (why they're missing, how they went missing), isn't really that imporant.