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I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)
3. Chapter specific Combat Tactics or Generic ones that can be applied to numerous chapters (inherent points cost e.g 100points for Army to have counter charge).
4. Scouts can take one Special Weapon, but no Heavy Weapons.
5. Reduce cost of Devs
6. Give Assault Squad free Razorbacks/Rhinos if they trade in Jump Packs.
7. Libby's get an Invul (even 5+ is better than nothing)
8. Techmarines get option of Conversion Beamer.
9. Reduce cost of Dreads and Venerable Dreads.

mwnciboo wrote:I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)
3. Chapter specific Combat Tactics or Generic ones that can be applied to numerous chapters (inherent points cost e.g 100points for Army to have counter charge).
4. Scouts can take one Special Weapon, but no Heavy Weapons.
5. Reduce cost of Devs
6. Give Assault Squad free Razorbacks/Rhinos if they trade in Jump Packs.
7. Libby's get an Invul (even 5+ is better than nothing)
8. Techmarines get option of Conversion Beamer.
9. Reduce cost of Dreads and Venerable Dreads.

Ok lets expand to 10 loyal Legions.

1. 1 character per legio minimum and not a fan like ward writing it.
2. some SC for the popular chapters if there are slots free
3. legio specific specials, maybe 'combat tactics' or something new
4. scouts could stay as is
5. agreed
6. ASM may swap packs with transport or reduced cost, vanguard JP are included or cost put to a ratio like sternguard <> tacticals
7. no
8. techmarines as IC but not taking up FOC slot.
9. dreads are fine.
10. options to upgrade command squads with JP, TDA
11. Plasma cannons for tactical termies without overheat since TDA

Oh almost forgot,

10. Meltagun's for Assault Squads.

Like the Techmarines as IC, not a FOC slot.
TDA with Plasma, that's an interesting take on it.

Tactical marines are now overcosted vs grey hunters etc. They should have a chainsword, or be reduced in cost, or both.

Stormraven, which I'm sure will come just on virtue of them wanting to sell more kits.

Option for second special weapon in lieu of heavy weapon for tactical marines.

Restore WS/BS for scouts, they should not be the equal of a grunt guardsman.

Reduce devestator cost.

These few tweaks would go a long way to helping codex marines compete.

Maybe giving tactical squads the option of running two assault special weapons (ie flamer and melta or two flamers etc instead of just one assault weapon and a heavy)

Reduce devastator costs.

Giving scout squads a better bs and ws would make them so much better to use instead of making them an expensive guardsmen grunt...

Agreed with the whole giving assault squads melta guns would be great as well as the option of a free razorback or rhino if they get rid of jump packs.

Is this supposed to be a combination of all the existing SM based books?

mwnciboo wrote:I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)

The fact that you're asking for over 38 special characters in one book (which would also include units from Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels given the fact that they are part of the original NINE loyalist legions), makes your wishlist unsupportable, even though the rest of it is actually 100% reasonable.

mwnciboo wrote:4. Scouts can take one Special Weapon, but no Heavy Weapons.

Err... what? Why?

I would like to see Vanilla SM take their place as the most reliable, flexible, tactically precise troops around, period. What else do they have, really? And being a crazed blood angel/SW/black templar ought to come with some downsides. So:

Major improvements to reserve rolls, outflanking, and deep striking. For example, termies that come in when you want them on a 2+ rather than reserve rolls. Bring them in first turn, or hold them till the last turn. More access to teleport homers.
Deathwind pods without passangers along the original forgeworld concept - massive payload that blow away everything in nearby.
Combat Tactics and Combat squads stay.
Hold to the last - squads in contact with an objective automatically pass all moral tests.
Libbys choose their powers at the time of the battle.
Tactical redeployment - 3D6 for run rolls, take the highest.

That kind of thing. The alternative is to majorly boost everything they have to keep up with BA/SW, or drop their point costs hugely.

3. Chapter specific Combat Tactics or Generic ones that can be applied to numerous chapters (inherent points cost e.g 100points for Army to have counter charge).

This. One of my current beefs is that one special character now determines you playing like the Chapter, and if you don't use that character, you may as well be Vanilla. Give Chapter Tactics that can be traded for Combat Tactics as an option for the force as a whole.

I want them to go back to the 4th edition chapter masters, making it so you could customize you're own chapter better...

And reduced dev prices...

Also, try to do something to make it so you don't HAVE to be mechanized to be competitive....

Speaking as a non-SM player, I think tactical marines ought to have a CC weapon as part of their standard kit. That alone would revitalise the army.

Some of your wishes are poorly considered.

mwnciboo wrote:I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)

That's too many by far. There's no way the writers could handle balancing all those options and you'd just end up with the situation where only two or three get taken 90% of the time anyway. I would get on board with one for every Codex Astartes adherent chapter (Iron Hands, anybody?) and a more robust generic captain/master system to affect chapter traits.

mwnciboo wrote:
3. Chapter specific Combat Tactics or Generic ones that can be applied to numerous chapters (inherent points cost e.g 100points for Army to have counter charge).

Bad idea. Such a mechanism doesn't scale with game size. Combat Tactics are incorporated into the price of models which have it, and any different tactics should be an exchange of roughly equivalent value.

mwnciboo wrote:
6. Give Assault Squad free Razorbacks/Rhinos if they trade in Jump Packs.

No. Obviously Blood Angels get this (discount on transport equivalent to the cost of a standard rhino), but it is poorly designed in their case because it is so susceptible to abuse (razorback-spam). If you think about the discount they get with five guys in the squad, it effectively makes an assault marine cost a mere 13 points. Sorry, but that's wrong. It should be a 25 point discount with a further 5 point discount for each extra marine. Really though, I'd prefer to see Tacticals made more versatile (extra CC weapon) and Assault Marines be purely Jump-pack guys.

ATM there's not really any reason to run Vanilla marines when SW/BA and DA can do everything vanilla does, but better/cheap.

My list of issues;

1. Vanilla is clearly inferior to other marine dexes. This isn't really an issue with vanilla itself, but seeing every subsequent booking being vanilla + 1 is really disheartening. The vanilla book needs something that the other marine dexes won't get.
2. Troops choices are...awful. Tactical squads need something, as GH and GKSS, not to mention chaos marines and BA assault squads make them look like chumps. Personally, I don't think the solution is giving them a CCW or a second special, as that's just chasing what the other books have and just perpetuates the whole "+1 syndrome". I think they need more hitting power with their bolter, either special ammo at a cost, re-rolling to hits...something to make tactical marines a shooting squad that isn't a joke.
3. Scouts need their BS and WS restored to 4 IMO. A lot of the issues with scouts is that sniper rifles/pinning in general suck, so hopefully 6th will do something about that.
4. Sternguard need a price cut in light of 20 point strike squad marines, there's no reason sternguard should be 25% more expensive, inferior in HtH and at best marginally superior in shooting. I don't like that they are basically "combi-melta delivery systems" and wouldnt' be sad about combis being limited.
5. Vanguard vets need the jetpacks free, or at least vastly discounted. These guys are just sad.
6. TH/SS terminators need to be less of a no-brainer choice. Increase cost to 45 is likely, but overall I'd like to see SS only work in HtH or only provide a 4+ invul save. Something needs to be done to make LCs look better in comparison, or at least not make the default HtH squad of choice be TH/SS.
7. Venerable dreads need a price cut, and I'd like to see some of the FW contemptor dread options integrated.
8. HQs need some changing from "All librarians, all the time". Captains and Chapter masters need to be more then a beat stick or a FoC shift for bike squads. Army wide abilities, LD boosts, re-rolls to reserve stuff, IG-ish orders...something. Chaplains need something new as well. Maybe always re-rolling to hit in combat? It's not much a stretch, since there's a BA psychic power that does this.
9. If the "melta-meta" continues into 6th, Land Raiders will need more survivability or a price cut.
10. Vindicators need to be changed. The whole "One-gun" issue it suffers from isn't cool, especially when it has to get close to use that gun. Most of the issues with the vindicator are general vehicle and cover issues though and will hopefully be fixed in the 6th main rulebook.
11. Assault marines need some spice. They are one of the most bland and uninteresting, not to mention poor, HtH units in any MeQ dex. Rending? Furious charge? Not really sure what they need, but they need something.
12. I wouldn't mind seeing the Storm Raven integrated into the vanilla codex.
13. I can guarantee Devastators will get a price cut, but I'd like to see the other weapons see the light of day for once instead of missile missile missile. Tank-hunters? Alternative fire modes for plasma cannons/las cannon? Suspenders so they can move and fire? Not sure personally.
14. Whirlwinds need to be re-thought. No one in their right mind would waste a HS slot on a S5 AP4 blast. S6? AP3? A direct fire krak missile mode?
15. For an army that specializes in "lightning raids and strikes" our vehicles are no faster then the IG battle tanks. I've had more then a few games where my predators sat there for 6 solid turns and did not move. That seems thematically wrong, not to mention boring. Fast preds? Again, this is an issue with the core vehicle rules, not so much marines in particular.
16. Tactical Terminators. Not sure what needs to be done, but they haven't been a "good" choice in 3 editions now. Plasma-blastguns? More special weapons? Maybe terminator armor allowing their powerfists to swing at initiative, but only at +2S? Since they are competing with Th/SS termies, they need something to shine. A storm bolter is not equal to a storm shield in this edition.

Oh my. I am a DA player. Why is it SM players need the "easy button" to play with? Also are we talking about Ultramarines or an actual Real Space Marine codex? I for one did not like how GW said "this is an Ultramarine codex but can be used to represnt other Chapters".

I am playing DA and Tyranids in 5th edition before DA FAQ, we had it pretty tough compared to others, but we adapted. So why not adapt instead of having the "easy button" to help you out.

Funny Tyranids do not get the +1A for 2 or more CC weapons wich SM get for free. In each edition, SM get free updates, example from 1st (not sure what 2nd did) to 3rd they became faster for free. In 5th edition they get fleet for free (wich they callled run) and free grenades. Also SM became cheaper without loosing anything while other exenos became cheaper but had to loose some stats or something to become cheaper.

So how come you have to be "easier" to play with?

What I would like to see is actually rules that play the Fluff. I do not want to see SM hide and cower in vehicles and stay in vehciles to claim objectives. I want to see a lower count for SM and then have them harder to kill so it is something like the fluff. I almost think with the number of SM on the table they are like IG. Funny how SPACE MARINE movie (or was it called Ultra Marine?) there were so few SM in play but were so hard to kill.

Yes I know it's to sell more minis, but still. Alot of people play SM, but play it so unfluffy. Right now, SM are one of the most cowardly races in the 40K universe the way the game is played.

mwnciboo wrote:I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)

40 characters...? Really? That's more characters than most armies have units.

5. Reduce cost of Devs

They need to reduce some of the weapons costs, but they also need to not be a super cheap unit or you end up with SW syndrome where every army has a super cheap, but small sized heavy weapons unit. If they made you take them 10 strong, but say cut a few points off the cost of each HW and retained combat squads, they'd be much more competitive without being the broken sillyness that results in Space Wolves armies that fancy themselves Iron Warriors.

6. Give Assault Squad free Razorbacks/Rhinos if they trade in Jump Packs.

With razorbacks, that's a no-brainer steal, especially for squads that could actually use them. Ditch 10-12pts of jumpacks for a 45pt tank? Derp.


Notice with BA's it's almost become a default option and they still have to pay a bit for the tank.

9. Reduce cost of Dreads and Venerable Dreads.

There's nothing wrong with the cost of dreads, they're a very common unit.



Honestly, what I'd like to see is an SM book that encompasses all of the current SM books except Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines. Have players select a "Chapter" package at army construction that has a predetermined set of variables that modifies it from the basic Ultramarines list.

That said, assuming that doesn't happen, here's what I'd like to see.

No more army wide twin linked weapons. Vulkan is such a no-brainer character for the basic SM codex it hurts, as he makes basically all the weapons and units that 5E SM's load up on anyway better (meltas, flamers, TH/SS termi's). If you're running a generic force and didn't take a chaplain or libby, there's literally no reason not to take Vulkan or cut enough points from elsewhere to take him as if you're taking a Captain or CM anyway, he's going to get you more combat ability and more army wide strength on a point for point basis.

Reduce cost of Vanguard Vets to 24 with jump packs, give them access to combi-weapons or a couple of special weapons, remove ability to assault from DS and replace with something like "may re-roll all to-hit rolls of 1 in an assault".

Increase cost of TH/SS termi squads to 50ppm. 2+/3++ 2A S8 units should have no business being 40/45pts. At 250pts for a squad, they'd still without a doubt be competitive (lets be honest, most of you guys would still consider them at that cost), but the other Terminator types might be taken as well. The problem with LC and Tac termi's isn't that they're bad, it's that TH/SS termi's are just flat out so much better they're pointless. Alternatively, stop segragating the two units and just make a generic "Terminator" unit that can mix/match weapons and make SS's a 10pt upgrade from a PFist or an LC and Thammer a free upgrade from an LC or Stormbolter. Alternatively, make it a 3++ only in CC or a 4++ against CC and shooting. The 3++ against everything is just too silly for 40pts.

Swap "Chapter Defining" from being character based to being a package that is bought at army construction.

Make Legion of the Damned sort of like Tau Stealthsuits or Harlequins with an integral range limiter to help reflect their ghostly nature and make the worth their high cost.

Return chaplain to old 4E stats.

Give Libby a 5++

Increase Lysanders cost by 25-35pts. He's a bit too survivable and fighty for 200pts, especially against other characters and vehicles.




The bigger problem for C:SM is, and *always* has been, that GW thinks that in order to portray other marines properly as being "different", they must be "better". Different != Better, but GW doesn't seem to understand that.

Vaktathi wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)

40 characters...? Really? That's more characters than most armies have units.

My thoughts exactly! There is no way for there to be that many special units. I'm not saying I wouldn't like the idea, but I think it would be asking way too much. Not to mention people who play other armies would want something similar for their own codex.

It's just not feasibly possible.

Bring back traits.
Scouts are WS4 BS4
Devs are fine, maybe drop the weapons cost a little or find a Take this Get that situation.
Tacticals with a CCW, that's called ASM...no
Plasma Pistol = 5 pts (FAQ every other SM book and lay the ground for SM supplemental codexes)
I do agree more SCs for chapters, not 2 per every 9 loyal legions and not all HQs neither. More like reduce the number of UM SCs to Tigrius and Calgar. Make the scout upgrade a not UM, Techmarine upgrade not UM iron hands maybe.
Terminator Command Squads...but not a vanilla DW.
A dreadnought SC preferably HQ would be badass
ASM with free rhinos- this isn't the BA codex.
Scouts use heavy weapons to force a tactical decision, move or shoot.
I'd like to see SMs have a codex that will last, not a whole lot of new shiny units, I was unimpressed with VV and SG past time. I think they have reached thier limit. Add the flier and update some kits to be packed with bits and bobs. Maybe plastic veterans kits.
Bring back rights of battle for captians
Maybe an option for an all vehicle SM fieldable army.
Command Pred, RB squads, Pred squads, Vindi Squads, Whirlie Squads, something really ridiculous and in todays Melta world, pretty easy to crack. More fun than useful.
SHOW ME A PLASTIC THUNDERHAWK.
150-200 dollars is fine. Plastic, kit. do it.

How about you stick with your codex for an edition without another buff-up..i mean update, like the rest of us


Seriously though:

Devs down a couple of points.

Standardize vehicle capacities and leave them there. Stop adjusting the LR capacity, Ward

Ditch the UM fanboiiism. There are other chapters out there that are far cooler, and more deserving of attention.

Perhaps some new Landspeeder/scoutcraft stuff instead of another dozen dread variants?

Vaktathi wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:I know alot of you hate SM out there, if so find another thread. I want to discuss what other SM players want to see in the next edition. This is my wish list.

1. At least two Special Characters for every one of the original 10 Loyalist Legions.
2. At least one Special Character for the top 20 most popular Chapters (Flesh Tearers, Red Scorpions, Crimson Fists etc)

40 characters...? Really? That's more characters than most armies have units.

Whoops, to be clear what I want is 2 Special characters for all the Legions that don't have their own Codex (e.g Iron Hands, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard etc) not the established Chapters with their own Codexes. On the 20 popular chapters, it would be one CHaracter for the Chapters that do not have one (not integrating the ones from other codexes as they are already covered). In Codex Space Marines some characters already exist, so it is more about alignment and covering gaps than creating 40+ Characters. Plus they don't have to make the mini's, just produce the statline and some fluff and we will do the rest. There is no Iron Hands Character? Or Iron Father? There is only one Raven Guard Character, White Scars and Salamanders Character despite them being a founding CHapter....WTF.

2 Characters a Page, Printed both sides = 4 characters per page = 10 Pages....of which some of the characters are already covered. Less pictures of Well painted Space Marines, more of actually Gaming relevant stuff. If you want pretty pictures, buy WD or go online or buy Collecting Space Marines. Seriously Codex Space Marine is Pornography for Ultramarine players.

Changing the Balance of Characters determines how you fight, Pedro Kantor is very Different to Lysander. MOTF changes FOC etc.

On the Subject of "making Tactical Squads better" how about giving them Lysanders "Bolter Drill".

Sorry already covered.

Generic codex marines needs -

1) very few characters, maybe 2-3 special HQ's, and only big name ones, like Calgar, Lysander, and Vulkan.

2) Captains with the options to take special rules, to modify deployment / force org options.

3) Librarians w/ the option for invulnerable saves

4) Reclusiarchs should be available.

5) Marines need true grit, and the option to carry chainswords OR bolt pistols on all models.

6) Tac marines need the option to carry 2 specials OR 2 heavies, or a mix of both.

7) Tactical terminators need to be be able to chose to replace their storm bolters with storm shields.

8) Predators need to be able to move and fire.

9) Devastators need to come with heavy bolters stock, and should have cheaper options for weapons.

10) Bikers should be armed with close combat weapons + bolt pistols.

11) Assault marines need the option for melta guns and plasma guns.

Iron Hands MOTF character.

Kick out Telion and Chronus, nobody uses them anyway.

Less Ultrasmurfing.

The end.

I want this book updated:



Honestly, most of the things I hate about the vanilla codex are not because of the army book, it's the BGB. Things like HBs not being defensive weapons and the like.

My biggest gripe with the army book is the troops section: namely the current tactical squad. Nerfed overly hard from 4e->5e. A squad that can be outfitted to perform any role beforehand can be called "Versatile"...a label the current tactical squad deserves only in the loosest sense of the word with a mishmash of confused upgrades on a bloated-by-mandate unit that winds up doing nothing particularly well, to make matters worse your only alternative to this unit also got a healthy smack by the nerfbat both in the army book and indirectly through the BGB. Even having the option to pick two weapons for the squad from EITHER special or heavy categories would be a leap in the right direction. The option to switch between a bolt pistol + CCW or bolters would be another.

Just because they can fit to do anything, doesn't mean they can do it all at the same time. Heck, orient the tacticals more heavily for ranged shooting and then allow assault marines as troops (Assuming they can take melta bombs on all models like they used to, or the ability to carry meltas. Giving them back the ability to fire a plasma pistol twice would be awesome too.)

Sort of a trip back to the 4th ed army traits. Structure of force and traits unlocked depending on characters and in the form of upgrades for the generic captains/chapter masters.

Horst wrote:Generic codex marines needs -

1) very few characters, maybe 2-3 special HQ's, and only big name ones, like Calgar, Lysander, and Vulkan.

2) Captains with the options to take special rules, to modify deployment / force org options.

3) Librarians w/ the option for invulnerable saves

On points one and two I actually, agree. It would allow us the opportunity to make our own Characters with a Force Multiplier special rule, however you would have to be careful with it or the Meta game becomes (Captain + FNP for Army Special Rule).

On point 3, the option already exists it is a Storm Shield. Chaplains and Captains get an Inv, yet Libby's don't.
I would personally settle for Libby's getting a higher initiative value than a Captain as this would make sense as they should be able to anticipate enemies movements (by reading their minds etc). Especially when coupled with their Force Sword, Instant Death anyone? And they would probably walk away alive as they struck 1st....

the option for an invuln save on the libby only applies if he has terminator armor... you can't take a shield on a power armor libby.

I run a biker libby all the time, and its frustrating as all hell to see him always die.

I don't get the complaining about dev costs.

For months people were clamoring on the boards on how cost effective they still were after puppies came out, even though they weren't.

What's the problem now with devastators?

It really depends on what 6th edition does to the game.

Here is my wishlist for Marines though:

1. Tactical Squads allowed to field a special weapon at 5 guys.

2. Chapter Masters get access to old Adamantium Mantel (eternal warrior) and get some sort of reserves manipulation.

3. Honor Guard get slightly cheaper

4. Vanguard automatically get Jump Packs with a massive points reduction. Can drop jump packs like Assault Marines.

5. Drop Pod assault is gone.

6. A few more special characters to fill out other divergent chapters. Iron Hands are really the only chapter lacking as far as the original legions, but I would like to see a little bit of tempting players to play non famous chapters. Maybe a Charcharadon or Red Scorpions character? It would be cool for Cullin to make that book.

7. Finally fix devestators by making thir guns at least 10 points cheaper. And make the Heavy Bolter option 5 points.

8. Remove chapter tactics swap for special characters. Special characters should only impact FOC slots.

Mahu wrote:

7. Finally fix devestators by making thir guns at least 10 points cheaper. And make the Heavy Bolter option 5 points.

making their guns 10pts cheaper would make MM's and ML's also 5pts each. that'd make a 5 strong Dev squad with 4 Ml's 110pts. that's a wee bit cheap there.

Vaktathi wrote:

Mahu wrote:

7. Finally fix devestators by making thir guns at least 10 points cheaper. And make the Heavy Bolter option 5 points.

making their guns 10pts cheaper would make MM's and ML's also 5pts each. that'd make a 5 strong Dev squad with 4 Ml's 110pts. that's a wee bit cheap there.

Just make them comparable to long fangs.

5 missile launchers in a long fang squad is what, 160 points? Come on, thats just plain silly, especially given split fire rules. Devs cost similar, but 1 body less and 1 missile launcher less, plus no split fire.

And dev squad lascannons are way more expensive.

I play a vanilla codex based DIY chapter and I am almost happy with the codex. Just three things I would like to be in there.

1. Scouts could get a special weapon. (Maybe a special OR a heavy weapon? Opinnions?)

2. Tactical squads could always get a special weapon without the need to field ten men before a special weapon is available. Heavy weapons are fine to require a ten man squad as I see it.

3. Master of the Forge could have an invulnerable save. (5+ perhaps?)

That's all I wish.