Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Chaos Master Race reporting in! *Grumbles on how your equivalents are cheaper and you have access to things that we don't.*

I've played a dozen or so games with Codex: Space Marines and I think it's pretty good. I thoroughly enjoyed my play experience. You guys have among the most Special Characters among armies, but normally only two or three are used. Most remaining loyal Chapters can be represented with the Space Marine codex, so I don't really see what the big deal is here.

There have been thoughts here about giving five man Tacs special weapons, or giving Scouts special weapons (with no transport!). Leaning more towards scouts on that one, but not Tacs. You guys already have Razorbacks with a Lascannon AND a Plasma Gun, you don't need to get even more greedy with getting special weapons. Blood Angels anyone?

What's wrong with Drop Pod assault? In the fluff it's what they do, they drop in and go Rambo on the enemy. Do you realize what an entirely Deep Striking army with no penalties would be like? You could take the mentioned Chapter Master upgrade and have your entire army come on the opponent's board edge on Turn 2!

If Tacs want a BP, Bolter, and a Chainsword they better pay for it. Why not use Assault Marines? Or play Blood Angels?

Reclusiarchs? Just play Blood Angels.

Tactical Terminators replacing Storm Bolters with Storn Shields? Why not just field Assault Termies? (Which are vastly underpriced, any monkey can use them and do well.)

Predators can move and fire already, where is the issue here? Again, just play Blood Angels if you want fast vehicles.

Storm Raven? Blood Angels.

There's no reason not to just use the Blood Angel codex if you want a more competitive army. The Space Marine codex isn't bad by any means! How do you think I feel as a Chaos player? By now Chaos is Marines -1, yet I can still beat Blood Angels and Space Wolves. What if we didn't update Space Marines until the very end of 6th or the beginning of 7th? Or atleast wait for every other army before Space Marines to get their update. I don't hate SM by any means, but they are treated like such royalty when they are indeed supposed to be the underdog.

Justus, your entire post is saying "just play blood angels".....

The fact is, codex marines, unless you use one of the lame special characters, cannot stand up to Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Grey Knights, and even with special characters its an uphill battle at that point.

And yes, I agree chaos needs a new codex, about as bad as marines. I'd put Codex Marines on an equal field with chaos, because while we have some cool things you don't, you have some cool things we don't. (lash, oblits, defilers, daemon princes, plague marines)

The reason it's mostly "just play Blood Angels" is because a lot of things being asked for in the book are already in existence. What is stopping anyone from taking a BA assault squad, stripping the JP, giving them a Rhino, taking two special weapons, painting it x color, and calling it y Chapter? How do you like my Iron Hands? They have two special weapons, mounted in a Rhino (Assault Marines) and Dreadnoughts that relentlessly demolish their foe, because the Iron Hands have a thing for machines (Blood Talon Dreads). Their close relationship with the AdMech has led to them receiving better (Fast Special rule) vehicles. Oh look, we even have Reclusiarchs!

Space Marine codex is supposed to be "boring", not an amalgamation of all the best parts of the other marine codices. Do you want Plague Marines too? Oh wait, Blood Angels have army wide Feel No Pain, never mind.

I'd say Chaos needs a new codex worse then Space Marines, but this topic is not a place to discuss that because it isn't on topic.

1hadhq wrote:
11. Plasma cannons for tactical termies without overheat since TDA

Oh yeah! I've been hoping for this for the new DA codex but I really think that it would be very, very good, almost too good. I've also thought about a multi melta on TDA, too. I think that this may be wishlisting more than something that GW would consider but then again, if it helped to bump up the number of tactical terminator boxes sold, why not? (surely, the assault termie box sells way more?).

Justus wrote:The reason it's mostly "just play Blood Angels" is because a lot of things being asked for in the book are already in existence. What is stopping anyone from taking a BA assault squad, stripping the JP, giving them a Rhino, taking two special weapons, painting it x color, and calling it y Chapter? How do you like my Iron Hands? They have two special weapons, mounted in a Rhino (Assault Marines) and Dreadnoughts that relentlessly demolish their foe, because the Iron Hands have a thing for machines (Blood Talon Dreads). Their close relationship with the AdMech has led to them receiving better (Fast Special rule) vehicles. Oh look, we even have Reclusiarchs!

Space Marine codex is supposed to be "boring", not an amalgamation of all the best parts of the other marine codices. Do you want Plague Marines too? Oh wait, Blood Angels have army wide Feel No Pain, never mind.

I'd say Chaos needs a new codex worse then Space Marines, but this topic is not a place to discuss that because it isn't on topic.

The thing is, the entire blood angels codex is focused on hand to hand. Tactical marines should be the stars of codex marines... and they should have options available to them to make them better.

Codex marines should have the best -

1) Tactical Marines
2) Biker Marines
3) Devastators

as it stands, they don't. Tac marines are inferior to assault marines in every possible way, bikers and devs are pretty bad choices as well.

bombboy1252 wrote:

Also, try to do something to make it so you don't HAVE to be mechanized to be competitive....

Agreed. I don't know what, but I'd much prefer it if you could be really competitive with no vehicles.

I think that tactical marines should have CCW in their wargear as well as all the other special rules and wargear.

Also, Devastators should be cheaper and assault squads cheaper too.

Use Space Wolves then? They got good Tacs and Devastators, paint them blue and call them Ultramarines. I know that the trademark units aren't optimal, but it's so hard to change them without making SM a mesh of the other armies.

Giving Tacs the CCW and x2 special weapons just makes them Chaos Space Marines, or better yet Space Wolves (which are cheaper). They already have a choice between Rhino, Razorback, or a Drop Pod for transports. Tac marines aren't inferior to Assault Marines in every way, they can take a heavy weapon. If you want special weapons, take Assault Squads. If you want more heavy weapons, take Devastators. Tacs are the mix between the two. Many people combat squad Tacs, put the half with a Melta in a Razorback, and the Heavy Weapon half stays back and shoots. I fail to see the problem there. Maybe give Tac Squads Relentless only if they footslog? They really need to tone down mechanized play.

I know almost nothing about bikes, as I hate the the fluff so never looked into them.

If you make Devastators cheaper but don't let them split fire, people will still complain about Space Wolves. Here's my proposal: Roll all Loyal Space Marines into one book to save the trouble, then reunite Chaos and make everybody happy.

I'm just a bitter bastard, little sense reasoning with me.

I would like to see a captain in TDA allow you to take a squad of Termies as a troops choice, similar to what the bike captain does now. It would give you a reason to actually field a termie captain...

To Justus

I dont play ultramarines. They're too blue and boring.

I'm a salamanders player and I've never read the SW codex so more detail is needed if you are to convince me that it's better.

So what if giving tacs 2 special weapons and 2 close combat weapons makes them equal to space wolves and chaos?

Shouldn't they be? Tac marines are tac marines, no matter what legion/chapter your playing... Unless SM marines cost less, they shouldn't be at such a disadvantage.

1 melta gun and 1 lascannon, combat squadding, just ensures that you have 2 small units, neither of which will do anything very well. 1 melta shot isn't enough to do much of anything unless your very, very lucky, nor is 1 lascannon shot.

Anubis_513 wrote:I would like to see a captain in TDA allow you to take a squad of Termies as a troops choice, similar to what the bike captain does now. It would give you a reason to actually field a termie captain...

It's like some people never read anything but C:SM.
CA, C:SW these are your terminator armies.
C:BA Jump Pack and now Mech assault with CC Dreads
C:BT Foot Slogging Assault
C:GK Overpowered win button, I mean small psyker armie with a Termie option
C:SW does anyone even really know where they were trying to go wit this one?
Undercoated TSM undercosted split fire Devs, better psykers than real psyker armies and a TDA option...it's SM+1
the message here: stop trying to steal other codexes thunder.

Also; wishlist whatever you want. TSM with a chainsword and bolt pistol in addition to the Bolter will only push the cost of ASM down or add another attack or both.

Stormshields are overpowered, they should go back to being (as they always used to be) only usable in CC

Horst wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:making their guns 10pts cheaper would make MM's and ML's also 5pts each. that'd make a 5 strong Dev squad with 4 Ml's 110pts. that's a wee bit cheap there.

Just make them comparable to long fangs.

5 missile launchers in a long fang squad is what, 160 points? Come on, thats just plain silly, especially given split fire rules. Devs cost similar, but 1 body less and 1 missile launcher less, plus no split fire.

And dev squad lascannons are way more expensive.

And creating a 100% no-brainer ultra powerful unit is good for a codex (or the game) how? Nothing should be comparable to long fangs really. This abomination should be eaten by Tyranids and be forever forgotten.
Making devs cheaper - ok. Making them too cheap - not ok. Mistakes should not be repeated.
The whole problem with SM is imho that chapter-specific will be more interesting and powerful than 'vanilla'. They should be evenly distributed into something like Choppy Marines Codex, Dakka Marines Codex, Fast/Tactical/Mech/Psychic Marines Codex etc.. With every codex having few chapter under its wings. Spread them evenly not put almost all in one and having few chosen ones exalted.

In my 1st ever box set of Tactical Marines in 2nd Ed. They came with Bolters and Blades. Now we all know that marines carry a Bolt Pistol and Combat Blade as their standard armament, with a Boltgun or other in the field. So they technically already have 2 x CC weapons, a Knife and a Pistol so I think they should have +1 Attack. That one change would probably be enough to make a Tac Squad a Close combat tar-pit of a unit and make a Tactical unit a very different beast. Grey Hunters are still better because they get "counter charge".

Ridealgh wrote:To Justus

I dont play ultramarines. They're too blue and boring.

I'm a salamanders player and I've never read the SW codex so more detail is needed if you are to convince me that it's better.

I used paint them blue more as an expression than as an actual statement pertaining to you specifically, I wasn't insinuating any personal insult or anything.

In terms of a Space Wolves codex, I would recommend that you check out the 5e book on Scribd. It's definitely worth reading to get an idea of what they can do.

I don't really see the need to add a CCW to tactical marines. They can do well with a flamer in the squad and a sergeant equipped for CC. I think giving them a CCW would make assault marines rather pointless. That is just my opinnion though.

Two special weapons on tacticals... I see one speacial and one heavy as a better choice. But I still think they should have access to a special weapon even with a five man squad.

Tactical Marines don't cut it in Hand to Hand period. They stay in the fight by not breaking, but they struggle against EQ units, they get stalemated and often struggle to put the hurt on Enemy Units. Assault Marines should get more PW's etc so they are more suited to leading Assaults against Heavy and Light Infantry. Tacticals should be able to hold the Line shooting, Close Quarter and in Hand to Hand. They should not be out standing they should be above average in all area's, except numbers.

AustonT wrote:
C:BT Foot Slogging Assault

You'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that Black Tide lists are hopelessly outperformed by mech and terminator spam...

Mahu wrote:6. A few more special characters to fill out other divergent chapters. Iron Hands are really the only chapter lacking as far as the original legions, but I would like to see a little bit of tempting players to play non famous chapters. Maybe a Charcharadon or Red Scorpions character? It would be cool for Cullin to make that book.

But any chapters that have characters made for them will become famous.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

Mahu wrote:6. A few more special characters to fill out other divergent chapters. Iron Hands are really the only chapter lacking as far as the original legions, but I would like to see a little bit of tempting players to play non famous chapters. Maybe a Charcharadon or Red Scorpions character? It would be cool for Cullin to make that book.

But any chapters that have characters made for them will become famous.

If thats the Case whenever we need a new 40k Codex for a non-marine codex, we should invent a Space Marine Character that is part Astartes part DE/Tyranid/Necron and hopefully GW will then have to make the Codex because of the Famous Characters. lol

I really think that the GK got far too much attention and publicity for a One trick, cheese pony. They should have definitely prioritised Necrons and their Codex, over Stormraven, Finecast and GK releases this year.

My wishlist for 6th edition C:SM:

1) Scouts can take special weapons.

2) Scouts can take a Land Speeder Storm as dedicated transport. Infiltrating a Storm might be a little much though, but they could probably make a rule that scouts in a Storm loose infiltrate.

2.5) If not a dedicated transport, at least let them be taken as a squadron.

3) I would like a Storm Raven.

4) Chapter Tactics as an upgrade for HQs, instead of having to buy a character for them.

Reverse the trend of cheap vehicles. (A rhino or razorback for less than 3 marines is wrong.)

Lower the cost of HW. Say Free for a tactical and +5 for a devastator Heavy bolter and go from there.

Reverse the cost of melta and plasma. If Meltas cost 15 and plasma cost 10 you might not see auto-melta spam.

Allow a 5-man the option of a SW at full cost. Discount it for 10-man squads.

Counterattack is THE choice.
Fleet is nice.
Twin-linking Flamers and Meltas is nice.
Ultra run-away rule is nice.
Stubborn is nice.
Cost them accordingly. Make people pay for this as an army upgrade and remove the special character rule.

Whirlwinds need improvement - 2 large blasts per turn?
More range? Squadroning. (1-3 per HW slot) Strength +1
(S6 AP4 for standard S5 AP4 for no cover)

Scouts back to BS4 WS4. Cost equal to standard SM. The choice should be AV 4+ and scout rule or AV 3+.

Rework of sniper rifles. I would propose make them S6. so it wound T4 on a 2+ and T6 (most MCs) on a 4+.

Make scouts S3 T3. and BS4 WS4.

d-usa wrote:My wishlist for 6th edition C:SM:

1) Scouts can take special weapons.

2) Scouts can take a Land Speeder Storm as dedicated transport. Infiltrating a Storm might be a little much though, but they could probably make a rule that scouts in a Storm loose infiltrate.

2.5) If not a dedicated transport, at least let them be taken as a squadron.

3) I would like a Storm Raven.

4) Chapter Tactics as an upgrade for HQs, instead of having to buy a character for them.

1) Someone agrees with me!

2) I don't think they need it as a dedicated although I have a full scout army.

2.5) Wont that make them a bit harder to use?

3) Ok. No offense to anyone. Just my opinnion. The stormraven... looks absolutely hideous. I hate the damn thing, BUT I still think it should be in the vanilla dex (although I would not buy one).

4)That sounds fun.

gaovinni wrote:

d-usa wrote:My wishlist for 6th edition C:SM:

1) Scouts can take special weapons.

2) Scouts can take a Land Speeder Storm as dedicated transport. Infiltrating a Storm might be a little much though, but they could probably make a rule that scouts in a Storm loose infiltrate.

2.5) If not a dedicated transport, at least let them be taken as a squadron.

3) I would like a Storm Raven.

4) Chapter Tactics as an upgrade for HQs, instead of having to buy a character for them.

1) Someone agrees with me!

2) I don't think they need it as a dedicated although I have a full scout army.

2.5) Wont that make them a bit harder to use?

3) Ok. No offense to anyone. Just my opinnion. The stormraven... looks absolutely hideous. I hate the damn thing, BUT I still think it should be in the vanilla dex (although I would not buy one).

4)That sounds fun.

1) Dang straight.

2) I like them, but I think it is stupid that they take up fast attack slots. But if you have a full scout army the only thing they compete against would be Scout Bikers.

2.5) True.

3) Ugly as heck, but functional.

4) Solves the whole "include 30 characters to make individual chapters" problem.

1.) Command Squads can have jump packs

2.) Scouts can have special weapons, can take Storms as dedicated transport, SM shotguns get better

3.) Dreadnoughts with 2 close combat weapons

4.) More special character Sergeants

5.) Master of forge has an invulnerable save

6.) Apothecaries everywhere! Mainly because I like saying it...."Apothecary ready"

7.) Make Veterans more veteran, give them access to the armoury, have an area of effect rule ie inspiring other units around them.

8.) Let terminators use 2 special weapons without having to be 10 man, but with a 0-1 limit on CML

9.) Chapter specific traits

10.) Iron hand special character!

I hate SM the most out of all the armies of the game. But I'll agree that they need a boost.

Sadly thou the truth is that its not SM that need the boost, its that SW, BA, and GK were made way to overwhelming.

The basic tactical should cost 16-17 points to equal out some of the pricing of the various xenos armies, but because of SW/BA anything more than 15 points is unbalanced.

So I say keep tacticals the way they are, drop t0 15 points. They shouldn't have a CCW, that puts them into SW and BA territory. However, what I'd like to see a a banner or something that gives the unit a boost. Maybe a one time boost to WS or +1 A or FNP for somewhat cheap.

Assault termies need to go up in price, I'd also like to see normal termies be allowed two of the same heavy weapons. Even if that means bringing back the dual assault cannons.

So I don't really have any true wishes for the SM codex, but I really do wish that it doesn't rape all the xenos armies just because its trying to 1-up the current OTT marine codexs.

I'm going to catch flack for this but, just let the SW/BA/GK codexs be the OTT one. Yeah raise the power of the normal one a tich, but it doesn't need to be the top dog. The SW/BA/GK were a mistake, lets not compound the issue.

Yeah that is a good point, the sexy Poster boy Space Marine Codices (BA, SW, DA, GK etc) are all way to powerful and we need to bring these down a level because the Meta game is getting stupid.

Goes to Tournament 1 st Game "Oh look, a 1750 pt army lead by Mephiston, all in RB's with just about every man having a FNP, oh and a Death Company Squad". 2nd Game "Oh look SW, Long Fang Missile Spam, lots of GH's and Wolf Guard and nails characters". 3rd Game "Another bloody BA Mephiston army FNP Army" 4th Game "SW again" 5th Game "Oh nice, Tyranids makes a change from 3+ armour save".

It is so annoying when you bring a Vanilla Marine Army and facing off against the same damn lists all the time. I must have played 70% of my 40k tournament games against other SM Armies. I know i don't help by playing SM myself, maybe I should collect a Guard Army or something.

EDIT - Codex Space Marines only has one Character for the IMPERIAL FISTS? I am no IF fan but i do respect the fact that they were the final Bulwark at the Gates of the Imperial Palace. They Teleported onto Horus's Battle Barge with the Emperor, Sanguinius and Custodes for gods sake. I mean Rogal Dorn carried the Emperors shattered remains to the Golden Throne. But the BA's well they were there and they get their own codex...Go figure.

Lower the cost of HW. Say Free for a tactical and +5 for a devastator Heavy bolter and go from there.

Uh... that seems backwards to me. A Devastator squad is supposed to be heavy-weapon equipped. I mean, it's their primary role on the battlefield.

The Tactical squad should be paying extra/more for the heavy weapon, as it's not really in their primary design to even field them.