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This autumn I have put my warhammer on the shelf, and started with Hordes. I have almost 15 years of experience with Games Workshop.

I like Warmachine/Hordes very much. I like the rules, I think most of the miniatures look ok. Some are really cool. And a bunch of minis look kind of goofy. Most of all I like it because it's not GW. It's different and fresh.

But I don't like this miniature quality. 99% are in metal, which is bad. And now I am glueing together a unit of Circle Orboros - Wolves of Orboros. This is a unit of 6 models with only 3 different models! Same gak with all my other unints. Tharn Ravagers come in a box of 4. 2 of them are identical! Reeves of Orboros are sold in a box with 6 models, they also have double up of one miniature. Another problem is that some of the halberds or spears that Wolves of Orbros wield needs to be glued together. Now I usually have no problem glueing stuff, specially not plastic. Metal can be difficult, but at least most metal bits have a proper contact surface. But these knifes that are supposed to be glued on a rod only have a contact area of about 1 mm in radius! How am I supposed to keep that on?

I don't like the quality, but love the game. Anyone agrees?

Circle has some decidedly 'poo' miniatures in my opinion, but mostly it's the heavy wolf warbeasts that I think look like absolute suck. I haven't taken too hard a look at their units in all honesty.

If you dislike monopose, then yeah, PP models aren't going to become beloved by you anytime soon. This is simply due to them being made of metal.

But as metal figs, I think PP models are great. They assemble easily (well, mostly, I will never put together another box of Nyss for as long as I live) and the detail is good. I prefer PP metal figs over 40k metal figs any day.

I find that the metal models can be a bear, but the new plastic kits are awesome. I really love the plastic warjacks. Don't worry, Hordes will come!

While yes, some parts have very small and flat contact points, it's no more than other companies such as GW, Avatars of War, Raging Heroes, etc. Sometimes bits are small and prone to breaking in the box or mold if they're already attached as a single piece. I've found the type of glue you use really makes a difference. I use Loctite Ultra Gel super glue on my minis and it holds strong even on little contacts. My Satyxis Raiders have tiny contact points on the chain whips but I haven't had any pop off yet, same with various other bits and pieces.

Metal isn't bad, it's just different. I enjoy plastics as much as the next guy, but metal isn't unworkable and doesn't deter me from buying the minis. As far as multi-man units having duplicate entries, that's the same for practically every system ever. GW, Infinity, Privateer Press, and any others that have 5+ models in a unit have one or two duplicates. This goes for both plastic and metal alike. I've found that only games that have completely individual models as units (Malifaux, Anima Tactics, etc) pull off having totally unique figures.

The quality of the sculpt varies by the miniature and artist, but again that's the same with any company. For instance, I love most of Avatars of War's minis, but a few of them just don't execute the idea they were going for. So... I guess overall I disagree, the quality of the miniatures is fine for what I expect but of course I would love more plastics and a few more varied unit sculpts. Oh, and new Satyxis Raider sculpt please... half their faces look like goats.

I have had bad experience with the metal parts, they rarely fit any good. Sometimes they don't fit at all! So greenstuff is a must. The quality reminds me of GW 10 years ago. Can you mention any of GWs metal models that doesn' fit together properly or have that small/flat contact points? Also can you mention GW units which include duplicates?

I actually have most of the heavy wolf models, I think they look both cheap and kinda descent. The aligators must be some of the most ridiculous models of PP. One of my favourite qualities of Warmachine / Hordes models are the high amount of women both warlocks/warcasters and units.

I agree with most of the points the OP raises. Love the sculpts, hate trying to mess around with fiddly metal pieces.

The limited number of poses is pretty weak, but I've had good luck reposing most of my WM metals.

There are a lot of things I like about the Iron Kingdoms setting and the WM/H ruleset(s). But the miniatures consistently put me off. I wish they would start putting some better stuff out but the direction of their siege line indicates it will be the same goofy gak done poorly for the foreseeable future.

Well, some of the PP models are really good and finely sculpted, but sometimes a real pain in the to assemble. I don't know about the circles models. I myself play cryx and the only goofy models I've had are the old Bane Thralls and the hardest to put together the HJ Seether.
Im glad that PP is slowly moving to full resin models and I guess that the future will hold some nice suprises,

Dark Eldar Mandrakes and Incubi are 2 current boxed Finecast units of 5 that have 3 sculpts in them.

Outside of Warbeasts and some Warjacks (Khador), I have had very little issue with fit on PP metals.
The sheer number of one-piece molds is impressive.
I had to putty my Dire Trolls, but I can't think of anything else in my Cryx, Cygnar, Mercs, Minions (Farrow), or Trollbloods.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:
Well, some of the PP models are really good and finely sculpted, but sometimes a real pain in the to assemble. I don't know about the circles models. I myself play cryx and the only goofy models I've had are the old Bane Thralls and the hardest to put together the HJ Seether.
Im glad that PP is slowly moving to full resin models and I guess that the future will hold some nice suprises,

No they're not. The only resin models are the battle engines and the Bane Thralls, and both are still largely metal. They've repeatedly stated that they plan to keep most of the line metal.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote: and the hardest to put together the HJ Seether.

I going to go ahead and assume you don't own a Crabjack, then.

Seether was a breeze to assemble compared to the Leviathan.

Thank god for the incoming plastic crabjacks then, huh?

PP is also going through some growing pains right now. There has been a huge shift in the wargaming community since MK II and GW Finecast release and price hikes.

I don't think they expected it and are having problems keeping up with demand. GW has been in the business way longer than PP so they have one up on them as far as the supply/demand goes.

But, if you look at the progression of PP from the progression of GW in equivalent time frames, PP is moving very quickly, learning from their mistakes and producing more and more high quality models.

I am a bit of a IK fan boy so I love most of the models and can't wait to see what they release next I do however agree that there are some models that are just not well done and need some rethinking.

Laughing Man wrote:Thank god for the incoming plastic crabjacks then, huh?

Indeed.

While GW has some absolutely stunning plastic box sets now, I'll gladly trade that for mono pose metal figures that are sometimes tricky to assemble if it means I don't have to spend hours (months, years?) scrapping mold lines off fiddly gw plastic bits.

Geez, I still have boxes of Termagants that I'll never put together because I can't stand to scrap them anymore.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:
(...)
Im glad that PP is slowly moving to full resin models and I guess that the future will hold some nice suprises,

As noted, this isn't the case. Most their resin is hybrid stuff. The battle engines all ahe a mix (usually the dudes around the model are metalic) and it seems that some resculpts and reboxes are also hybrids (Bane Thralls, Bronzeback Titans).

And stuff.

@Baxx

ummm the WOO spears come as ONE piece

i think the ones you have are broken


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on a side note:

I like working with PP metals. If they dont fit it's usually because some of the parts are a bit bent so you have to bend them back but rarely worse than that.

GW Metals on the other hand? They're little fragments of compressed and solidified rage.

25 vent spurs? on JOKAERO? seriously?

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 'pinning' yet.

Learn how to do it. It's a great hobby skill to pick up.

I don't know if I'd call the quality bad... they seem on par with other metal stuff I've worked with. I've worked on GW, PP, Reaper, Wyrd, and stuff for Anima Tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

infinite_array wrote:I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 'pinning' yet.

Learn how to do it. It's a great hobby skill to pick up.

Pinning is one of my favorite things to do. Definitely learn this.

infinite_array wrote:I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 'pinning' yet.

Learn how to do it. It's a great hobby skill to pick up.

No disagreement that pinning is a valuable hobby skill, but I have not had to pin a single PP model of any reasonable size. Scoring the metal and slapping some glue into the seam has always been sufficient.

The only models that I've wanted to pin were too fine to actually do so, like the Nyss.

Agreed- pinning makes me feel better about the bonds, but on stuff with tiny contact points and slender arms and so on, it's not useful anyway.

Da Boss wrote:Agreed- pinning makes me feel better about the bonds, but on stuff with tiny contact points and slender arms and so on, it's not useful anyway.

Don't know what you mean by "tiny contact points" but I'm pinning everything that requires it. Even the jaws of Cankerworm - with 0,4mm drill & guitar string it was quite easy. And now I'm sure that they won't fall off even if I manage to drop the model from the table.

Well, The Wroghthammer Rockram is hellish. Why they decided on a one point of attachment dancing warjack i'll never know. It gets a nice rock to balance the knee when I build one of those.

As to the game, it's fun enough, but when a "high level" player plays someone inexperienced, such as myself, it can leave a bad taste in the mouth. I played a FLGS tournament, and felt I'd been beaten with a hammer for most games, mostly cause I don't know all the tricks of every warcaster. And knowing the tricks of your enemy is required in War Machine.

Creon wrote:Well, The Wroghthammer Rockram is hellish. Why they decided on a one point of attachment dancing warjack i'll never know. It gets a nice rock to balance the knee when I build one of those.

As to the game, it's fun enough, but when a "high level" player plays someone inexperienced, such as myself, it can leave a bad taste in the mouth. I played a FLGS tournament, and felt I'd been beaten with a hammer for most games, mostly cause I don't know all the tricks of every warcaster. And knowing the tricks of your enemy is required in War Machine.

To be fair, you should have expected that going into a tournament, even at a FLGS. This isn't a GW game where games are determined more by list and book than by skill.

I don't mind losing, nor do I mind losing at the tournament. I minded losing because I don't know everyone's army list backwards and forwards. It's the sense of "Never had a chance" that bothered me.

I prefer metal miniatures, because I really dislike scraping mold lines off plastic. I find that the metal vs plastic debate tends to really vary depending on which person you ask about them - I played both WH40K and Warhammer Fantasy(chaos marines and orcs'n'goblins), so I do have experience with the plastic models.

As far as duplicate poses go, I stop noticing duplicates once the minis are painted and on the battlefield. At that point they become playing pieces, and the pose they're in ceases to matter. Yeah, you get limited sculpts with PP... but the GW plastic kits can be the same sort of thing, especially if you're building big infantry blocks in WHFB. Sure, the plastic is a little more pose able, but when you're working on Goblin #37 it doesn't matter that you can change the angle he's holding his spear at by 6 degrees either way.

I think you'll also find that many Warmachine players play for the game, and not necessarily the miniatures; it's the attraction of a great rules set with lots of possibilities, not the models themselves.

Creon wrote:I don't mind losing, nor do I mind losing at the tournament. I minded losing because I don't know everyone's army list backwards and forwards. It's the sense of "Never had a chance" that bothered me.

I can see that. I've never had that feeling(with regards to not knowing the opponent's list) as my loses tend to center around my own mistakes due to not knowing how everything in my own force can possibly interact with everything else or a placement/order of operations mistake.

Mr. Grey wrote:
I think you'll also find that many Warmachine players play for the game, and not necessarily the miniatures; it's the attraction of a great rules set with lots of possibilities, not the models themselves.

I've found this, too. It's why I tell interested players that are GW converts: PP is a game company that happens to make models vs GW being a model company that happens to make games.

The learning curve to WM/H is very steep. Far steeper than 40k, and in some ways more akin to RTS games like Starcraft in terms of countering and pacing.

You cannot simply master a faction and be 'good enough'. I've heard gripes from people at my gaming store that they have to memorize 9 rulebooks (not quite true, but true enough) to have a chance at the game, whereas 40k they just have to see what the model looks like and they have a vaguely good idea what they're up against. The reality of the game is that players do definitely need to understand their opponent's lists as well as their own lists in order to block their opponent's offensive as well as to execute their own. Once you get over that hump, the game becomes hugely rewarding. If you stay stuck before that point, though, it's hugely frustrating.

I have nothing but good things to say about PP's rules, other than their reluctance to fix balance issues, as when they do, they've always been good.

Their minis are pretty inconsistent, though. Also, I'd like to point out that, while GW generally (always?) requires more minis, for the same price, I'm starting to think that GW's are vastly superior: $50 will buy you a basic 10-man unit of most PP's units, or around 1.5x that many of GW minis (give or take, on par, depending on which PP unit and which GW squad), or (for about 10% more) about as many Forgeworld pieces, which, frankly, are head and shoulders above PP's line.

RE: Pinning;

Scoring Metal

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No pinning and a bond from hell