Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the spirit of armor vs armor this match up sees the Hammerhead go toe-to-toe with the rugged Predator tank.

Loadouts

Hammerheads - Tau Empire Standard Hammerhead



Railgun
Multi-tracker
Targeting Array
Smart Missile System
Disruption Pod


Predator - Blood Angel Lucifer Engine Fast Tanks



Twin-Linked Lascannon
Lascannon Side Sponsons
Storm Bolters
Smoke Lauchers
Hunter Killer Missile



Setting: Farming World - Random Cover

Tabletop: Predators

Fluff: Hammerhead

Predator, simply because it has 3 Lascannons vs 1 Railgun.

Tabletop: Hammerhead. Longer range, always obscured and can move 12" and still fire the Railgun.

It depends who has first turn...

Anyone like to play that out in Vassal40k ;P ?

Does 25 have some significance from a mathammer pov or is it just an arbitary number?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Predator imo.

As much as it pains me to say, Hammerhead.

Due to randomness of the dice, either side could win.

the predators have a slight advantage since they have one TL Lascannon and two Lascannons, where the hammerheads only have one non-twinlinked railgun.

DeathReaper wrote:Due to randomness of the dice, either side could win.

the predators have a slight advantage since they have one TL Lascannon and two Lascannons, where the hammerheads only have one non-twinlinked railgun.

And yet the Railgun has greater range, greater S AND is AP1. The Hammerhead is also always obscured outside of 12". By simply back-pedalling the Hammerheads can stay out of range for a couple of turns without sacrificing the ability to fire the Railgun, after which the TLLC will be in range. After that the Predator will still have to refrain from shooting the sponsons in order to stay in range of the Hammerhead, which is still gonna have a 4+ cover save. Sure, this assumes a large surface for the Hammerhead to reverse across, but considering the number of tanks involved I don't see that as a problem.

In conclusion, the Predators are fethed unless the Hammerheads let them close in.

You forget these are blood angel predators, they are fast too.

Tabletop:

predators shooting first.

25 TL-lascannons and 50 lascannons.

25 TL shots= 22 hits.

50 lascannons = 33 hits.

roughly 55 hits.

this will give 9 glances and 18 penetrates. 4 glances and 9 pens go through.


Hammerheads shooting first.

33 hits.

roughly 6 glances and 16 pens.


Table top i say whoever goes first will win.



Fluff: Blood Angels are Space Marines. Tau are screwed.

Tabletop has been discussed pretty well.

Fluff it depends on if you are talking about a battle or a campaign. I would bet on the the Hammerheads in a straight fight with both sides vehicles in optimal condition and unsupported.

Over the course of a campaign, especially one with sub-optimal supplies and attrition I'm betting on the Rhino 9 times out of 10. They are described as being crazy durable and easy to repair. They run on anything, rechange on anything, and break a lot like legos, always ready to be pushed back together.

This is one of the more telling areas displaying the differences between Tau levels of tech and Imperial. The Hammerhead is at the pinnacle of Tau tech requiring intensive maitenence, calibration, and specialized supplies. When it takes damage it is down and requires specialists to get up and running again.

It is like comparing an old, reliable ford pickup to an F1 race car, except the pickup happens to be almost as fast and maneuverable as the F1 racer.

riplikash wrote:Tabletop has been discussed pretty well.

Fluff it depends on if you are talking about a battle or a campaign. I would bet on the the Hammerheads in a straight fight with both sides vehicles in optimal condition and unsupported.

Over the course of a campaign, especially one with sub-optimal supplies and attrition I'm betting on the Rhino 9 times out of 10. They are described as being crazy durable and easy to repair. They run on anything, rechange on anything, and break a lot like legos, always ready to be pushed back together.

This is one of the more telling areas displaying the differences between Tau levels of tech and Imperial. The Hammerhead is at the pinnacle of Tau tech requiring intensive maitenence, calibration, and specialized supplies. When it takes damage it is down and requires specialists to get up and running again.

Hammerhead, as a skimmer, could however hover upwards, tilt forward and shoot Predators from above. At least by the model, Predator doesn't have any mechanic to adjust the vertical angle of its guns. Tau win.

have you ever handled a properly assembled Predator model? One that can actually articulate its guns(its tough to do as the parts are a little fiddly)

The main lascannon can get up to about a 45 degree upward angle.

the sponsons can get even further up.





Then we have the Hammerhead, it can only put its main gun down about 45 degrees depending on its orientation to the hull. Assuming it has to keep relativly level and can't fly upside down or anything crazy.

Grey Templar wrote:You forget these are blood angel predators, they are fast too.

I'm not forgetting anything; assuming that they start at max range the Pred will have to go flat out to get within firing distance. That gives the Hammerheads a couple of "free" turns. Once the Preds catch up, they have to keep travelling at cruising speed to stay within lascannon range. This means that it isn't firing it's sponson guns, only it's TLLC. This is up against a target with a better gun that is getting a 4+ save against everything the Pred can do. Ergo, Hammerhead demolishes Predator.

Ahhh, but you assume they start at max range of the hammerhead and there is no terrain around. Bad design.

Zweischneid wrote:

riplikash wrote:Tabletop has been discussed pretty well.

Fluff it depends on if you are talking about a battle or a campaign. I would bet on the the Hammerheads in a straight fight with both sides vehicles in optimal condition and unsupported.

Over the course of a campaign, especially one with sub-optimal supplies and attrition I'm betting on the Rhino 9 times out of 10. They are described as being crazy durable and easy to repair. They run on anything, rechange on anything, and break a lot like legos, always ready to be pushed back together.

This is one of the more telling areas displaying the differences between Tau levels of tech and Imperial. The Hammerhead is at the pinnacle of Tau tech requiring intensive maitenence, calibration, and specialized supplies. When it takes damage it is down and requires specialists to get up and running again.

Hammerhead, as a skimmer, could however hover upwards, tilt forward and shoot Predators from above. At least by the model, Predator doesn't have any mechanic to adjust the vertical angle of its guns. Tau win.

Uh, yeah they do. The gun barrel moves up and down on the turret, just like on a real tank. In face it has greater range of motions than the Tau weapon. And it is a skimmer, it cant flip and rotate that way. If anything there are more angles where the pred has a shot and the hammerhead doesn't than vice versa. If the Hammerhead can shoot the pred, the pred can shoot the hammerhead. And, again, this only applies to silly levels of close range fighting.

Though I don't see how that really relates to my post discussing the effectiveness of hammerheads in campaigns compared to preds.

riplikash wrote:Uh, yeah they do. The gun barrel moves up and down on the turret, just like on a real tank. In face it has greater range of motions than the Tau weapon. And it is a skimmer, it cant flip and rotate that way. If anything there are more angles where the pred has a shot and the hammerhead doesn't than vice versa. If the Hammerhead can shoot the pred, the pred can shoot the hammerhead. And, again, this only applies to silly levels of close range fighting.

Though I don't see how that really relates to my post discussing the effectiveness of hammerheads in campaigns compared to preds.

Perhaps. Point to you on the modelling.

But nevertheless, even if both vehicles can tilt their guns vertically at up to 45°, the Hammerhead could still capitalize on its range advantage.



If "c" is the range of 72" (or its "fluff"-equivalent) the HH shoots at, and its sloped 45° downwards (meaning "a" and "b" would be of the same length), he could fly at an altitude of just under ~ 51" (or its "fluff"-equivalent - square root of ((72²)/2)), and thus out of lascannon range even if the Predator could fire straight upwards.

depending on terrain (rolling farmland with rows of foliage and such) engagement range and time of day/night, the tactical edge by a large margin is in the hammerheads court. terrain with cover is the boon of the mobile and the bane of the ground bound, in a fluff based engagement hammerheads would be capable of pop-up attacks and with their superior range would be able to interpose terrain features to minimize and channel the earthbound enemy.

Now fast moving preds are a nice thing and will allow closing distance a bit easier, but all this is just a academic mind wargame, without actual terrain and battlefield conditions it will just come down to personal opinion.

If you like predators then you will want them to win and manipulate facts to encourage that end.

If you like hammerheads then the same applies.

and bringing maintence into a campaign based evaluation is problematic at best since the relative maint standards and req for these systems are stated in lore on not hard facts of man hours to service hours, but again that is not the question posed..the 25 fully operational tanks from both sides in a engagement, and to which would be the victor.

so with around almost 4.5k of units per side as per apocalypse rules play area would tend to be around a 6'x 8' playing area , and in that setting with random cover and rolling farmland terrain, I would happily play my hammerheads against predators, would be a fun game and I would expect the hammerheads would ultimately triumph, but there would be losses, but would not be much of game if there was not .

And again, this assumes there is no cover, no LoS blockage, no nothing.

Highily unrealistic. Trees and buildings will give the Predator a severe advantage.

The hammerhead will be forced to come closer if it wants to engage the predator tank to get the proper angles and visability.

Grey Templar wrote:Ahhh, but you assume they start at max range of the hammerhead and there is no terrain around. Bad design.

Random farm world means little to no cover. If the Predator wants to win it'll have to come to the Hammerhead, as the Railgun outranges the Lascannon. It's not exactly rocket science. At any rate, it'll be a fight between a vehicle with a BS4 Railgun with 4+ cover versus a vehicle with a BS4 TLLC. The sponsons aren't ever going to be able to fire.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Ahhh, but you assume they start at max range of the hammerhead and there is no terrain around. Bad design.

Random farm world means little to no cover. If the Predator wants to win it'll have to come to the Hammerhead, as the Railgun outranges the Lascannon. It's not exactly rocket science. At any rate, it'll be a fight between a vehicle with a BS4 Railgun with 4+ cover versus a vehicle with a BS4 TLLC. The sponsons aren't ever going to be able to fire.

Not quite. Sponsons mean that each of the 25 Predators can take 2 Weapon Destroyed and still fire a Lascannon. Any of the 25 Hammerheads will only be good as speedbump after the 1st Weapon Destroyed result.

Zweischneid wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Ahhh, but you assume they start at max range of the hammerhead and there is no terrain around. Bad design.

Random farm world means little to no cover. If the Predator wants to win it'll have to come to the Hammerhead, as the Railgun outranges the Lascannon. It's not exactly rocket science. At any rate, it'll be a fight between a vehicle with a BS4 Railgun with 4+ cover versus a vehicle with a BS4 TLLC. The sponsons aren't ever going to be able to fire.

Not quite. Sponsons mean that each of the 25 Predators can take 2 Weapon Destroyed and still fire a Lascannon. Any of the 25 Hammerheads will only be good as speedbump after the 1st Weapon Destroyed result.

Fair enough, I'd still say that AP1 and permanent cover, as well as +1S and better range, means it's not really a contest anyway.

Hammerhead with disruption pods vs Predator will generally inflict a greater number of damage and destroyed results than they will receive back, primarily thanks to disruption pods.

My money's on the Hammerheads, even as a long time Marine player. Also, I'd really love to see a tank battle that big actually happen!

If the predators have cover as well, the predators win.

Considering one weapon destroyed pretty much makes the hammerhead useless.

DeathReaper wrote:If the predators have cover as well, the predators win.

Considering one weapon destroyed pretty much makes the hammerhead useless.

Well, burst cannons on the side armor can do a bit (at least stun/shake), and ramming is totally awesome if unreliable.

Brother SRM wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If the predators have cover as well, the predators win.

Considering one weapon destroyed pretty much makes the hammerhead useless.

Well, burst cannons on the side armor can do a bit (at least stun/shake), and ramming is totally awesome if unreliable.

And, again, if the Pred has cover the Hammerhead backs off and takes potshots from outside the Predator's range, thus forcing the Predator into the open. The only way this doesn't work is if the Hammerhead can't move backwards, either because of damage or because it's at the board edge.

4 foot table is 48 inches across.

You will have hammerheads and preds within 48 inches no matter where you go.

I voted pred, but then reading these comments I should have gone hammerhead.

The hammerhead should have burst cannons as that would allow 2 weapon destroyed results, and they are effectively the same as SMS.

Since the hammerhead is a skimmer, it can fly over terrain but the pred can't. That gives a distinct advantage to the the hammer.

Lets also not forget that the hammerhead has better armor. It is F13, S12, R10 while the pred is F13, S11, R10. Predators have a really small frontal section, so getting auto-pen side armor shots on them would be relatively easy for the Tau. This is no contest. Hammerheads every time.

How about hammerheads against godhammer land raiders? That would be a fight for the century's.