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As I said earlier, you're not gonna have enough space on abstandard table to have a 25 vs. 25, so the point is moot. If the table favours the Predator, it wins. If it favours the Hammerhead, it wins. It just favours the Hammerhead more often.

sorry Deathreaper the numbers involved put this in the Apoc realm and that puts the table size in the realm of 6' X 8' , so there is room for manuver

Again as i said people who want preds to win will construe the parameters to ensure they win

and same for the opposition, but I have 12 hammerheads and would love to do a battle of 12 on 12, but sadly none of my fellow gamers here have even close to enough preds, perhaps we will proxy some and do a battle this weekend.

I did one before with hammer heads vs. leman russ and it was alot of fun, and very close as well.

DeathReaper wrote:If the predators have cover as well, the predators win.

That however is a highly variable condition.

Considering one weapon destroyed pretty much makes the hammerhead useless.

Yup, but with a bigger gun and always having cover, the odds are most definitely in the hammerhead's favor.

Ok, so I think it can be agreed that Hammerheads dominate in unsupported open field engagements due to their range. Up close things are not so cut and dry, but favor the predator.

I do think it is worth noting that most combat (outside of tabletop) does not happen at maximum range. It reminds me of people claiming sharpshooting rifles will always dominate assault rifles, or sniper rifles are better than shotguns because of the range, and the sharpshooter can always move back. I hear a lot of "cover is variable" and "the predators will only win if you favor them with the terrain". Cover may be variable, but you can usually count on it. People don't fight over open fields anymore. Why would you, there is literally nothing there?

The truth is range is only one possible variable, and not the all important variable people are pretending it is. Combat typically happens at much closer ranges, and trying to throw out any fight but an empty field is just as erogenous as claiming there will be cover everywhere.

In the end the Hammerhead excells at range, obviously, but has a slight disadvantage in close combat. I'm still giving it overall to the hammerhead, I just don't like the line of thought that range is the most important factor in determining combat effectiveness, and insisting cover be taken into consideration is somehow unfairly favoring one side.

Considering the OP asked about an agri-world I wouldn't claim fighting on an open field implausible, since that's what an agri-world is...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Ahhh, but you assume they start at max range of the hammerhead and there is no terrain around. Bad design.

Random farm world means little to no cover. If the Predator wants to win it'll have to come to the Hammerhead, as the Railgun outranges the Lascannon. It's not exactly rocket science. At any rate, it'll be a fight between a vehicle with a BS4 Railgun with 4+ cover versus a vehicle with a BS4 TLLC. The sponsons aren't ever going to be able to fire.

Farms still have wind breaks to prevent soil erosion.

Then we have the crop variable. you could have fruit trees, some alien bush that grows ten feet tall.

You assume that farms are just flat land, Crops, equipment, and other stuff means you are going to have a varied landscape with plenty of cover.

riplikash wrote:In the end the Hammerhead excells at range, obviously, but has a slight disadvantage in close combat. I'm still giving it overall to the hammerhead, I just don't like the line of thought that range is the most important factor in determining combat effectiveness, and insisting cover be taken into consideration is somehow unfairly favoring one side.

It's rather silly to try and compare the two outside of their intended fluff and armies. Generally Hammerheads are supported by Pathfinders, which give the tank an advantage of shooting through terrain features, at night, or improving its accuracy. If you read the Talos Campaign in the Imperial Armor, Hammerheads usually decimate armor from a distance in conjunction with Pathfinders before receding back into the sand storms.

The combination gives the Hammerhead a unique ambush tactic which the Predator lacks.

Predators on the other hand remind me of a standard battle tank; sturdy enough for a frontline unit and hits hard enough to combat vehicles in a head to head fight. In conjunction with Tac Marines or Land Speeders, they make for a very solid offensive/defensive line that they enemy cannot ignore.

Grey Templar wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Ahhh, but you assume they start at max range of the hammerhead and there is no terrain around. Bad design.

Random farm world means little to no cover. If the Predator wants to win it'll have to come to the Hammerhead, as the Railgun outranges the Lascannon. It's not exactly rocket science. At any rate, it'll be a fight between a vehicle with a BS4 Railgun with 4+ cover versus a vehicle with a BS4 TLLC. The sponsons aren't ever going to be able to fire.

Farms still have wind breaks to prevent soil erosion.

Then we have the crop variable. you could have fruit trees, some alien bush that grows ten feet tall.

You assume that farms are just flat land, Crops, equipment, and other stuff means you are going to have a varied landscape with plenty of cover.

Look at the image the OP posted...

The only time the advantage shifts away from the hammerheads is when the Preds are at under 12" range (given that we're talking about units with 48-72" ranges and can all move 12" and fire, this probably isn't going to be a common occurence) or when the majority of predators can claim cover while still being able to fire.

Both of those states are situational and far less likely occurrences than otherwise, and not by a small factor either. The situation is pretty solidly in favor of the Hammerheads here.

This whole situation is ridiclous to begin with. No marine chapter is going to throw its entire tank strength against a Tau armored force unsupported.

a better comparison would be 25 LRBTs vs 25 Hammerheads. 15 standard pattern, 5 Vanquishers, and 5 Demolishers.

Standard pattern all have hull lascannon and sponson HBs.

Vanquishers have hull lascannon and sponson HBs.

Demoloshers have multi-melta sponson and hull lascannon.

Well of coarse the situation is ridiculous. All the who would win situations are crazy. Do the blood angels even have 25 preds?

Well, they probably have 25 if you count both regular preds and Baal preds together.

Pred. Twin link las, it's a fast vehicle with the BA engines, way more shots on target.

nomotog wrote:Well of coarse the situation is ridiculous. All the who would win situations are crazy. Do the blood angels even have 25 preds?

Almost all "who would win" situations are ridiculous, but this is one that's actually playable in-game, which makes it 100% less stupid than the rest of them.

Brother SRM wrote:

nomotog wrote:Well of coarse the situation is ridiculous. All the who would win situations are crazy. Do the blood angels even have 25 preds?

Almost all "who would win" situations are ridiculous, but this is one that's actually playable in-game, which makes it 100% less stupid than the rest of them.

It's all nerboy fickle fallal. Not that it's not fun to fickle fallal about, but lets call a spade a spade.

sfshilo wrote:Pred. Twin link las, it's a fast vehicle with the BA engines, way more shots on target.

Hammerhead has a much bigger gun that penetrates armor easier and inflicts greater damage, always has a 4+cover save from anything further than 12" way, hammerhead can fire as though it were fast (e.g. move up to 12" and fire).

Grey Templar wrote:Well, they probably have 25 if you count both regular preds and Baal preds together.

That'd be tops, likely closer to 15 or 20 I'd imagine. 25 would mean they've got more than two per company, requiring 75 battle brothers to crew them all, and it's not like BA's are particularly noted for extensive use of heavy tanks (despite being widely available in the current book)

The Armory marines are not included in the chapter's 1000 battle brother limit. Neither are dreadnoughts, the Librarium, Reclusiam, and the Apothecarion aren't included either.

it was figured that a chapter at full strength actually has around 1500 marines.

Grey Templar wrote:The Armory marines are not included in the chapter's 1000 battle brother limit. Neither are dreadnoughts, the Librarium, Reclusiam, and the Apothecarion aren't included either.

it was figured that a chapter at full strength actually has around 1500 marines.

IIRC it was basic battle brothers that generally crewed vehicles, armory personnel would be the Techpriests, so generally, at most, you're talking about maybe a dozen or so (ignoring dreads here) guys that aren't counted, not nearly an entire battle company.

Its transport vehicles that are crewed by Battlebrothers.

Landraiders, Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds are crewed by junior techmarines and the techmarines themselves. occasionally chapter serfs might do this too, but only rarely.

a Tac squad will drive their own razorback or rhino, but they don't split a couple marines off because they need to man the Predator tank.

Grey Templar wrote:You forget these are blood angel predators, they are fast too.

Tabletop:

predators shooting first.

25 TL-lascannons and 50 lascannons.

25 TL shots= 22 hits.

50 lascannons = 33 hits.

roughly 55 hits.

this will give 9 glances and 18 penetrates. 4 glances and 9 pens go through.

You forgot the disruption pods.

No he didn't.

thats why there is only 1/2 as many damage results as there would be normally.

I see. I missed out that bit at the end.
Damn my faulty eyes!

PraetorDave wrote: Predators have a really small frontal section, so getting auto-pen side armor shots on them would be relatively easy for the Tau. This is no contest. Hammerheads every time.

How about hammerheads against godhammer land raiders? That would be a fight for the century's.

Easy, only for the two preds on the end of the line. that is a lot of tanks to put onto a table, so they would be pretty much side by side.

One thing that will hurt the preds. If they become immobilized, they are as good as wrecked because railguns out range them and can just pick them off from out of range.

How many points are the 25 Hammerheads?

The BA predators come in at 4500 points.

SHould be about the same... probably about 180 points per hammerhead (my loadout anyways).

lessee... 25x180=4500

will ya look at that.

25 hammerheads with the OP stated load out ( minus the targeting array since the hammerhead comes standard with it.) is 4375 pts.

and again this would be on a 5' x 8' or 6' x 8' play surface based on the points involved, other wise it would be a who goes first wins stupidity contest battle, no manuver or anything..boring.

In the imagination or on an ideal battlefield, the Hammerhead's superior range would easily win out, if the Tau commanders were able to keep themselves far enough out from the Predator's max range. Reality would suggest that the Marines, being smarter than the average Snotling, wouldn't allow themselves to get into this type of one-sided fight, however.

Tabletop games would boil down to terrain and tablesize. I find it highly unlikely that the Tau tanks would be able to maintain enough distance for more than a Turn or 2 before they either run out of room or get backed into a table corner, where the superior firepower of the Marine tanks would take its toll. Even with the Disruption Pods, the sheer number of shots the Preds could land when they found their range would be devastating.

However, the Tau tanks have one weapon no one has pointed out yet. The Smart Missiles. While only S5, they are Hvy 4 and do NOT require a line of sight. A smart Tau would use a Turn or two to blast from a distance, then rush into hard cover, manuevering THRU the Pred's assault line, then fire their Smart Missiles from behind cover at the rear/sides of the Predators on the other side of the hill/trees/building and pray for 5s/6s on those AP rolls. Granted, this isn't a massive stroke of overwhelming firepower or vehicular demolation, BUT it could counter the Predator's close range firepower and offers a fairly good chance at taking out weaponry or immobalizing the Preds long enough to find range again for the big guns.

Many people talk about the Pred's sponsons, but forget that the HH also has secondary weaponry, if not as powerful, is at least MORE versatile.

First things first, no tau player in their right mind takes smart missiles on their hammerheads, it's just not cost effective.

Furthermore, the hammerheads are 25 points in cost under the predators.

How if we assumed an apoc battle for this, the hammerheads would win easily due to out ranging the predators, and the preads would only get 1 twin linked shot by turn 2 at best.

If we used the notion that it was on a normal table (impossible btw) then cover comes into the factor, but at that close range tanks providing cover for tanks and wrecked tanks providing cover starts to occur. It's more likely that the hammerheads can deny LOS by wrecking the front line of predators so their side lascannons can't see their targets.